...

[ChiDragon]

 

Only the man of virtue doesn't hate.

 

[idiot_stimpy]

How do we raise ourselves so as to be the wise person to whom Confucius refers, so that our love is feeding what deserves to be fed and we are contributing to the field of virtue and equaly and actively diminishing the field of ignorance.

 

Find the balance point.

 

The balance point is neither left nor right.

[三江源]

.

Edited July 19, 2014 by cat

[skydog]

erm didnt read the whole replies but...

 

hate makes you sick, hate comes back to you.

 

Repression aka freezing emotions, anger, sadness, apathy, shame etc also make one sick etc..

 

what one hates in others is a threat one perceives in theirselves projected, or value wise.

 

probably best to make conscious what you hate, intend to heal it, delete it, etc

 

Im not speaking as someone who doesnt or hasnt ever hated.

 

just sharing some thoughts

[三江源]

.

Edited July 19, 2014 by cat

[steve]

Nice quote, cat.

I like to look at this as an invitation to know myself.

The person of virtue can know others because she knows herself.

Generally speaking, we are so far removed from the other person that we are wrapped up in our own story.

We love and hate but it is our own image of our self loving and hating our image of someone else; without ever really relating to that person.

They never even enter the equation!

 

At another level, we are being asked if we are clear enough to know whether to love and hate.

And can we even distinguish between the two?

And don't both define each other in this context?

 

As far as burning away, much of our emotional life, I think, can be used to purify us when approached skillfully.

My practice partner and I have been using sound for purification, combed with meditation and qigong.

[skydog]

probably best to read the replies..

 

hehe

[3bob]

or one might ask where is it not....

 

"...So, as ever hidden, we should look at its inner essence:
As always manifest, we should look at its outer aspects.

These two flow from the same source, though differently
named;
And both are called mysteries.

The Mystery of mysteries is the Door of all essence."

[3bob]

"How do we raise ourselves so as to be the wise person to whom Confucius refers, so that our love is feeding what deserves to be fed and we are contributing to the field of virtue and equaly and actively diminishing the field of ignorance". From Cat

 

I believe part of a chapter from the TTC mentions one of the ways...

 

49.
"The Sage has no interests of his own,
But takes the interests of the people as his own.
He is kind to the kind;
He is also kind to the unkind:
For Virtue is kind.
He is faithful to the faithful;
He is also faithful to the unfaithful:
For Virtue is faithful..."

 

(the enlightened quotes point far better than murky me :-)

Edited July 7, 2013 by 3bob

[Marblehead]

Yeah 3bob,

 

I have read that many times but I'm still not there. There are limits in the manifest world. The spiritual world has far fewer limits.

 

And we need maintain balance and harmony between these two worlds.

[3bob]

Hello MH,

 

My take: if a matrix is perfectly aligned with spirit there is nothing that can not be done in the so called material worlds which is done in the so called spiritual worlds for then there is no resistance to such action;

 

but I agree that as human beings we need to balance the entire microcosom that we are, and I'm still not there either.

[Marblehead]

if a matrix is perfectly aligned with spirit there is nothing that can not be done in the so called material worlds which is done in the so called spiritual worlds for then there is no resistance to such action;

Yep. That would be called a criterion.

Edited July 7, 2013 by Marblehead

[三江源]

.

Edited July 19, 2014 by cat

[3bob]

I'm not a Sage so I can't say for sure but I'd venture this:

 

All beings from heavenly to hellish are under the One and the One is under the Tao,

thus are not "the people" really beings or forms of which the Sage has also meant and mastered within him or her self?

 

Further, would not such a sage be qualified to truly know the interests of such people according to Tao (I know the chapter doesn't say it that way in English, which is all I know) even if they are acting counter to Tao be able to help in their best interests? (like a tough love variation, also see chapter 27 of the TTC if you will) So called normal people try this all the time to whatever degree they are capable of and get some decent action/reaction even if they are not Sages and even if it backfires sometimes.

 

Maybe the teachings of Aikido could help with your burning question?

Edited July 8, 2013 by 3bob

[silent thunder]

"But takes the interests of the people as his own."

 

how are we to understand this as relevant to our lives? what if the interests of the people around us are negative ones? What if we are surrounded by animus driven addicts? How do we operate?

 

For me it means that the Sage sees and works in the interest of the people even when the animus driven addicts are not aware of their own interests. The Sage occupies the center.

[Friend]

Edited August 17, 2013 by Friend

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Good question and responses. This is a question I find myself pursuant of as well, perhaps because it's one of those with no definitive answers.

 

If we were to ask Confucius I think we would be somewhat disappointed were we to believe the narrative of his life via Sima Qian. According to this story, Confucius at one time ordered a group of actors and dancers to be executed because he thought the performance (which they were ordered to perform) was too lude for the reception of honourable guests. He was also extremely elitist and had almost no respect for "common people."

 

So where should our line of tolerance be? Should we, like Confucius, be completely intolerant of people who act too "common?" What does "common" mean exactly? Lacking manners and and discriminating taste? Maybe. Though there is a common-ness of elitism as well in that elitists seem to indiscriminately give in to their blind partiality to superiority.

 

I guess maybe the line of tolerance has a lot to do with trying to "lead from behind" when you know someone is pushing things in the wrong direction. I know I can be fairly intolerant too, especially to obliviousness of one's negative effect on their surroundings, feeling like it's just the tip of the iceberg as to how much they would sacrifice of others for their own advantage.

 

Anyhow, I'm interested in the answers.. not sure if those thoughts contributed to the conversation or not....

[3bob]

if one has a hero that does something one thinks/feels is wrong voice your concerns and if you are ignored or the issue is white-washed time to let that hero go...

[三江源]

.

Edited July 19, 2014 by cat

[deci belle]

Virtue's ultimate and enduring effect is the elimination of ignorance which is then one's unlimited freedom to act in selfless adaption to karmic evolution without having to go along with the cycles of created yin and yang. This is how adepts transcend the changes they themselves participate in as coeval with creation.

 

 

Using alchemy to expunge, requires virtue. We may not recognise what to expunge, if we dont have the virtue or wisdom to recognise what we are looking at.

 

Not so much a matter of expunging, as the light and darkness operate neither in terms of exclusivity nor degree Purity is realized instantaneously in terms of serene open sincerity. This ignites the alchemic function. It is the nature of mind our own mind right now. What we're expunging is itself the fuel of refinement. If it weren't for the false, there would be no way to arrive at the real.

 

There is nothing extra to discern in that in seeing complete reality, it looks no different than the temporal— Virtue works within nonoriginated unification, so it is not a matter of differentiating— that's what the human mentality does. So in terms of the human being as the empty vessel of the Way's selfless Power nothing needs to be decided, so it is not a matter of discerning (choosing) what to expunge. The power itself is spiritual and enlightening beings expression of virtue is in receiving it. Situations just do a just flip and you find yourself at ground zero again.

 

Virtue is the power of the Way. To the degree one operates consistently in a state of nonpsychological awareness, to that degree the way naturally coalesces. Virtue is the function, the Way is its substance. Realized humans are just an inert ingredient facilitating and catalyzing the evolution of impersonal enlightening being.

 

As for deciding on objects of hate~ there is no need to be involved personally as knowledge is immediate.

 

Tao has never decided anything~ how much less should we?

 

 

 

 

 

ed note: itazlicize "what"

Edited September 1, 2013 by deci belle

[hydrogen]

49.

"The Sage has no interests of his own,

But takes the interests of the people as his own.

He is kind to the kind;

He is also kind to the unkind:

For Virtue is kind.

He is faithful to the faithful;

He is also faithful to the unfaithful:

For Virtue is faithful..."

 

Interesting verse. The bible has similar concept.

 

"That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust."

[DeadDragon]

Confucianism goes against the Tao Te Ching and in my opinion the core ideas of Taoism so **** that ****. When everyone is kind and respectful to every being, there will be no need for rules, religion, etiquette, authority, etc.

 

Not that I am perfect, I still get angry on occasion if somebody ****s me over badly enough. Or occasionally getting angry at all the super rich people who control this world who are ***holes (our material but not our spirit, unless we give in to fear and consumerism and worldly desires), but then they wouldn't be rich if they weren't. The thing is, they are not in control. They are being manipulated by negative spirits, demons, whatever. They already hate us, thinking we're all stupid and ugly filthy little peons. I've heard them talk about us in such ways before. But it's not us who are the ignorant ones.

 

Getting angry won't help at all, in fact it only makes them worse and it hurts your own health. They most especially need to be shown and given love (kindness, forgiveness, respect, etc) and healing. Who here can do that, for as much atrocity and ugliness they are responsible for creating? Most people say **** em, let them burn in hell.

 

I recall going to a hippy gathering where everyone was all peace and love. But then the topic of George Bush came up, and almost everyone started chanting "Kill George Bush" over and over. It was pretty creepy. Unconditional love, not just love for those who "deserve" it. The people who need it the most are the ones least "deserving" of it.

 

Nobody needs to point out to me that cultivating myself more would be more beneficial to the world. I'll be quiet now.

Edited September 4, 2013 by DeadDragon

[Urpflanze]

Love few and hate even fewer. Love a person and hate a representation. Try to build but keep it below the simmering point. Your name should not be the first to appear on anyone's tongue - be it to give or to receive. The time spent chasing circles is the time spent chasing the divine. For circle is the perfect form.

Edited September 4, 2013 by Urpflanze

[DeadDragon]

Ah **** I made a fool of myself again. Love unconditionally I say. **** Confucianism I say. I wish I could delete what I said earlier.

[dawei]

I looked up the original quote and it is not virtue but it is one of the Confucian virtues called Ren (benevolence):

 

唯 - Only, Yes

仁 - benevolence, human-kindness

者 - the person spoken of

能 - able, capable

好 - good

人，- person

能 - able, capable

惡 - hate, loath, fear, slander

人 - person

 

Lau translates this as: The Master said, 'it is only the benevolent man who is capable of liking or disliking other men.'

 

 

I will note that Laozi says that that Heaven and Earth, and the Sage is 不仁 (Not Benevolent) but treats all things as straw dogs. I take it as a more literal rebuke of Confucian thought as "Not REN". Ren-benevolence was one of the 3 key virtues of Confucianism.