Mantak Chia's Iron Shirt; good or bad practice

[Trunk]

I have been practing Mantak Chia Iron Shirt methods for a few months, my teach is Kris Deva North. I am very happy I have found it as it has helped me in many ways.

 

That's the critical thing, really, for each individual: whatever is moving you forward. That, on its own, is a healthy level of selfishness.

 

It's also important to keep your eyes open, not for the purpose of casting blame on individuals / organizations, but for the purpose of learning principles clearly ... so that one can navigate one's own path with increasing skill and perhaps one day be of help to others. It's a long path of education and experience; that's the nature of this work.

 

At the moment I'm just considering it to be rivial from competing schools.

 

The link that I've provided contains essays from 4 different HT instructors. As far as I know, 3 of them are still involved in the HT.

[BaguaKicksAss]

Iron shirt is really one of those things where an in person teacher is needed in my opinion. It is about much more than just the physical conditioning. If you do the breathing wrong bad things can happen. (such as some local guy who was peeing blood for awhile while doing an iron shirt type practice; it stopped soon after he did).

[footprint]

I have learned quite bit from Manrak Chia.

I thing smething similar happens with Deepak Chopra,

just because they became succselfull and rich, people discretid them.

[BaguaKicksAss]

I appreciate all the input and thoughts you guys have listed here in response to my question. I think what I most wanted to ask, but didn't, is this: Why is Iron Shirt necessary for Tai Chi? I've done Chen, Sun and Yang with good instructors...but none ever mentioned anything about Iron Shirt. I've always considered Iron Shirt a "Hard style" practice.

Can anyone clarify for me why Iron Shirt is even needed for Tai Chi? Does it add anything to the practice?

Norbu

 

Good for health, grounding, solidifying the practitioner, making your energy more dense. That is my limited understanding of it so far (I've only been doing it for about two and a half years). There are also many benefits to the breathing practices that go along with it. Well also if you plan to do sparring.....

[Alchemistgeorge]

OK, I learned this practice (Iron Shirt 1) from Master Chia in 1989 after learning it from his students Marie Favorito and John Loupos. I did any number of weekend iron shirt classes with him and his students, and did the iron shirt week at summer camp at least twice. The last time I heard him talk about iron shirt was in 2002.

 

He made it clear in 1989 not to use force in the "packing", and that the central aspect of the practice was about developing root & developing structure, and that the "being impervious to blows" part was (1) came at a really high cost and (2) was not very useful to most of us.

 

For me, I always assumed that Iron Shirt was mostly the practice of zhan zhaung - standing qigong. I assumed the key part was the quiet standing part - that was what Master Chia always said. He was the first teacher that I had who spent any time explaining "structure" and he had some way to both explain it and teach it. I was impressed that he could stand effortlessly - he talking about being truly relaxed and having your body become very light, very empty. When you "pushed" on the senior students, the energy went right through them - you could feel it go - you couldn't really push them - when I finally had the experience in my body I found it truly remarkable.

 

It was not a pre-requisite to tai chi chi kung in my day.

 

I'm a HUGE fan of zhan zhaung. I recommend you try zhan zhaung.

 

I've also found the 'bone breathing' to be an interesting and useful practice.

[Republic Of Zen]

Sorry I dont understand what the packing practices are.

[Republic Of Zen]

Oh I googled this. I found packing difficult so I dont do it. I breathe with my attention on my dantian. This is how I try to breath all day long and how I meditate.

Micheal Winn gives some insite. Packign isnt dangerous, some people just do it wrong or strain themselves.

 

"Master Chia's warning not to hold the packed breath if strain is felt goes unheeded."

 

http://www.precisiondocs.com/~altaoism/IS1WinnGentleEasyWay.htm

 

I'm going to consult my teahcer two weeks about this.

[BaguaKicksAss]

Packing is one of those things that really should be learned via a teacher, preferably in person to make sure you get it right.

[Trunk]

best to all of us,
may we each
walk our own appropriate path
with wisdom, skill, and luminous fruition.

[Trunk]

I'm thinking it could be helpful to segue a little bit...
and talk about the danger areas of a practice like Iron Shirt IN THE ABSTRACT, not of a particular school, not even a specific version of Iron Shirt method. I mean, the practice exists in all of Taoism, so let's go broad.

The basic idea is that you are compressing blood and qi into an area (lower abdomen, tissues, organs, etc) through various breathing methods and postures. That's the Iron Shirt practice in a *very* broad sense.

What could go *well* with something like that? (Just common sense wise, not necessarily legendary wow stuff.) Seems to me that it could be deeply nourishing to area/s of tissue that maybe doesn't get good blood flow often. A *mild* amount of pressure~stress could promote growth and resilience in an area, perhaps. If all went well like that, could feel good.

What are the basic thing/s that might go *wrong* in a practice like that?

I think perhaps the most common danger is that there's often already various yucky stuff stored & stuck deep in our systems and that "packing" those areas would just pack in the yucky stuff more. By "yucky stuff" I mean: stubborn blockages, especially those that've been there a long time, adhesions in the fascia, stored toxicities of various kinds from injury, illness, stored emotional trauma, etc. The problem with that sort of stuff is that it doesn't just flow through easily; people often spend many years, decades, life-long projects to heal their bodies. "Just forcing that stuff through" doesn't work, just jams it up worse.

 

Also, I guess, obviously: if you pressurize an area too much, things are going to start tearing and bursting. Tissues, blood vessels, etc. Especially if there is some weak area, especially an area that you weren't previously aware was so weak.

 

Q. But what is the right amount of pressure?
A. It varies for each person. People vary a lot.

So, as a student of the internal arts, you need to *develop* a sensitivity for your own body. How much is enough? How much is really too much for *your* body to process? YOU need to *develop* a FEEL for this. (Also, of course, receiving appropriate teachings is helpful.) Common western physical exercise does not provide you with a kinesthetic feel for this kind of work, so go easy, cautiously, especially as you are first learning.

Also, look for methods that COMPLEMENT each other. You know: yin and yang!

Q. What's the opposite of packing stuff in?

A. Circulating stuff, releasing.

You need to balance those two kinds of activity in your own body. Apply basic "yin & yang" principles. Go too far either way and you'll create an imbalance.

- Trunk

Edited July 12, 2013 by Trunk

[BaguaKicksAss]

If I could "like" the above post 100 times I would .

[norbu]

A thought I had while reading the above, sensible approach is that westerners rarely know the product of an exercise. They are well concentrated on the doingness but rarely do I hear mention of the actual product of an exercise , how much is enough? What "thing" (or things) can I expect to see manifesting when I have achieved the final product of the exercise.

If I don't know that product, I could easily overdo an exercise (or under do) and there in is I feel the danger. You don't know you have achieved the result so you "pour on the pressure" and the packing is overdone. My first teacher told me that a result of Iron Shirt, for ex, was to withstand a hard blow during combat. I let a friend who was over 200 lbs and a capable black belt, hit me with all his strength in the solar plexus with a full lunge punch with all his weight behind his fist. It didn't hurt me or in any way faze me. Did that mean I was "complete" in my Iron Shirt work? I have no idea how to answer that. I no longer did the Iron Shirt exercises, and I no longer bothered to block if I was in a free fight. I just took the kicks and punches as they came. Then the novelty wore off and I went on to other forms of training.

But I wonder if any of you guys have an idea or two or three re what would be the final product of Iron Shirt?

Norbu

[steve]

I appreciate all the input and thoughts you guys have listed here in response to my question. I think what I most wanted to ask, but didn't, is this: Why is Iron Shirt necessary for Tai Chi? I've done Chen, Sun and Yang with good instructors...but none ever mentioned anything about Iron Shirt. I've always considered Iron Shirt a "Hard style" practice.

Can anyone clarify for me why Iron Shirt is even needed for Tai Chi? Does it add anything to the practice?

Norbu

 

I don't think iron shirt qigong is necessary to achieve a very high degree of taiji skill. In fact, I think iron shirt training could be a distraction for a beginner. Adding iron shirt skill on top of taiji skill definitely kicks things up a notch, however... You'll know when your taiji is good enough to begin to understand and manipulate energy and add other practices. Iron shirt is good, iron palm is good, and there are other neigong practices that are even more powerful. Although I don't know anything about Mantak Chia's techniques so I have no opinion about them specifically. I would agree with the others that say this is not something to do without expert guidance.

[steve]

 

 

But I wonder if any of you guys have an idea or two or three re what would be the final product of Iron Shirt?

Norbu

The final product of iron shirt training is to build up the martial artist to fight full contact. At very high levels of achievement, one can withstand internal attacks.

Of course, it also provides great resilience to external attacks (such as what is demonstrated with the parlor tricks you'll see on youtube). But the real McCoy is dealing with fajin and more penetrating force.

 

There are some beneficial side effects which are enhanced by adapting the practice method with respect to tension and breathing (endurance, strength, flexibility, organ massage, etc...).

But, at the same time there are risks. I've seen some really well trained folks with expert instruction hurt themselves with the training. It's challenging, even under the very best of circumstances.

 

I know nothing of Chia's methods but I would never practice something like this from a book or video.

Nor would I attempt to teach it in a book.

I'd go so far as to say that anyone who does [edit. try to teach it in a book] is irresponsible and has not been properly trained.

 

Caveat Emptor

Edited July 13, 2013 by steve

[footprint]

I guess anyone becoming a public figure has to live

with a certain amount of controversy.

I have watched many Mantak videos on the web.

I could not care less if he is morally not up to Confucian

standards. His explanations are straight forward and he

seems quiet enough that I can learn something from him.

I particularly enjoyed his explanation of a diagram which

in my ignorance I suppose is a sort of esoteric chart explaining

the cycle of Water as a metaphor for the right way to live.

 

Yes when he speaks of sexuality it does seem too outlandish

and extreme to me. But at 43 years of age I know better than

to obsess over something and everything else goes out the window.

 

My personal affinity in the sexual field and which I highly recommend,

is the Bygan Bahirav Tantra as explained by Osho in "The Book of Secrets."

 

I have been an enthusiast since my youth, but really I can only say that

I have proper Stances and increasing Vigilance. It feels way too early for me

to get alchemical.

[Ten Thousand Methods]

I'm thinking it could be helpful to segue a little bit...

and talk about the danger areas of a practice like Iron Shirt IN THE ABSTRACT, not of a particular school, not even a specific version of Iron Shirt method. I mean, the practice exists in all of Taoism, so let's go broad.

 

The basic idea is that you are compressing blood and qi into an area (lower abdomen, tissues, organs, etc) through various breathing methods and postures. That's the Iron Shirt practice in a *very* broad sense.

 

What could go *well* with something like that? (Just common sense wise, not necessarily legendary wow stuff.) Seems to me that it could be deeply nourishing to area/s of tissue that maybe doesn't get good blood flow often. A *mild* amount of pressure~stress could promote growth and resilience in an area, perhaps. If all went well like that, could feel good.

 

What are the basic thing/s that might go *wrong* in a practice like that?

 

I think perhaps the most common danger is that there's often already various yucky stuff stored & stuck deep in our systems and that "packing" those areas would just pack in the yucky stuff more. By "yucky stuff" I mean: stubborn blockages, especially those that've been there a long time, adhesions in the fascia, stored toxicities of various kinds from injury, illness, stored emotional trauma, etc. The problem with that sort of stuff is that it doesn't just flow through easily; people often spend many years, decades, life-long projects to heal their bodies. "Just forcing that stuff through" doesn't work, just jams it up worse.

 

Also, I guess, obviously: if you pressurize an area too much, things are going to start tearing and bursting. Tissues, blood vessels, etc. Especially if there is some weak area, especially an area that you weren't previously aware was so weak.

 

Q. But what is the right amount of pressure?

A. It varies for each person. People vary a lot.

 

So, as a student of the internal arts, you need to *develop* a sensitivity for your own body. How much is enough? How much is really too much for *your* body to process? YOU need to *develop* a FEEL for this. (Also, of course, receiving appropriate teachings is helpful.) Common western physical exercise does not provide you with a kinesthetic feel for this kind of work, so go easy, cautiously, especially as you are first learning.

 

Also, look for methods that COMPLEMENT each other. You know: yin and yang!

Q. What's the opposite of packing stuff in?

A. Circulating stuff, releasing.

You need to balance those two kinds of activity in your own body. Apply basic "yin & yang" principles. Go too far either way and you'll create an imbalance.

 

- Trunk

Well said. Thanks for posting that.

[Republic Of Zen]

Do you have a link to an audio version of that book? Typicaly his are written down versions of his discourses.

I listen to Osho at work and couldnt think of what to move on to.

[Trunk]

Another thought relevant to Iron Shirt "packing breathing"... Sometimes IS packing breathing is done without sufficient prior knowledge and training in lower dan tien breathing.

Often in Taoist systems, lower dan tien (LDT) breathing is foundational. By "foundational", I mean that some version of LDT breathing is often the main practice and is often done for about an hour a day for years as basic training.

What do I mean by LDT breathing?
Very, very broadly I mean a lower abdomenal breathing method that is done moderately slowly (example, 5 seconds inhale, 5 seconds exhale) with attention towards the ideal of "smoothly", for sustained periods.

"Carrying vitality and consciousness,
embracing them as one,
can you keep them from parting?

Concentrating energy,
making it supple,
can you be like an infant?

Purifying hidden perception,
can you make it flawless?"

- Tao-te Ching (Ch.10)
pg 12 of Vitality, Energy, Spirit

Master Kim, of the Sun Do school, talks about the ideal of "silk breathing". Meaning, that the breath should be smooth and even as silk. That is the foundational ideal that is worked towards.

My thought that if a good foundation of LDT breathing is not in place then much much much more likely that there will be trouble in attempts with Iron Shirt packing breathing (as well as various other aspects of the cultivation path).

[Mandrake]

....

 

Also, I guess, obviously: if you pressurize an area too much, things are going to start tearing and bursting. Tissues, blood vessels, etc. Especially if there is some weak area, especially an area that you weren't previously aware was so weak.

 

Q. But what is the right amount of pressure?

A. It varies for each person. People vary a lot.

 

So, as a student of the internal arts, you need to *develop* a sensitivity for your own body. How much is enough? How much is really too much for *your* body to process? YOU need to *develop* a FEEL for this. (Also, of course, receiving appropriate teachings is helpful.) Common western physical exercise does not provide you with a kinesthetic feel for this kind of work, so go easy, cautiously, especially as you are first learning.

 

Also, look for methods that COMPLEMENT each other. You know: yin and yang!

Q. What's the opposite of packing stuff in?

A. Circulating stuff, releasing.

You need to balance those two kinds of activity in your own body. Apply basic "yin & yang" principles. Go too far either way and you'll create an imbalance.

 

- Trunk

 

I also need to express the very sound advice in this post. I actually damaged one of my lungs through Mantak C's IS practice many years ago. Took a long time before it healed.

I wish I had read your quote when I was a beginner, and I wish that nobody attempts to engage in these practices without knowing what you pointed out, and without a skilled teacher.

 

Thanks Trunk!

 

 

Mandrake

[BaguaKicksAss]

Mandrake, if I may ask, what do you think about the practice is it that led to the lung damage? Or was it simply the lack of proper packing/breathing? Also do you think it was something in Mantak Chia's system/books which led to this, or do you think that doing it reading any book by any person could cause similar/the same problems? I ask because we do practice iron shirt stuff (in person teacher), and also I know quite a few people who do. I personally can't imagine iron shirt and/or packing without an in person teacher.

 

I hope everything healed up all fine for you in the long run?

[Mandrake]

Mandrake, if I may ask, what do you think about the practice is it that led to the lung damage? Or was it simply the lack of proper packing/breathing? Also do you think it was something in Mantak Chia's system/books which led to this, or do you think that doing it reading any book by any person could cause similar/the same problems? I ask because we do practice iron shirt stuff (in person teacher), and also I know quite a few people who do. I personally can't imagine iron shirt and/or packing without an in person teacher.

 

I hope everything healed up all fine for you in the long run?

 

BaguaKicksAss:

 

I'll happily reply. At that time, I had mainly been doing martial arts, and of course been exposed to documentaries about shaolin monks and the ability of advanced martial arts adepts to take hits. After some dabbling in different western systems, I got hold of Mantak Chia's books, and delightfully, of his Iron Shirt practices.

 

The thing is, I didn't have a map out of the experiences that could be considered a well-rounded foundation. I would put these to be: easily access energy anywhere in the body, being able to get your energies to flow throughout the body, being able to sink your energy and having developed arms and legs, accessing stillness in order to integrate any changes in jing-qi-shen, feeling your physical body and having familiarity with your internal organs and sensations.

 

There are a couple of more things one could add to the foundation, but these would have helped. Why? Just to have the sensitivity and wisdom to understand what would happen with every action, i.e.: If I slightly change pressure this way, this will happen; If X is happening, it means stagnation is building up, and I should stop; etc. It's basically familiarity with structures that feel "novel" to the novice. In the same way as when you have stretched and trained for awhile, you know not to bend more than a certain amount or you will hurt yourself, or lift over a threshhold weight, or you'll damage some ligaments.

 

So to succinctly answer your question: Yes, due inproper packing/breathing, and due to lacking the required understanding of the material - your body and energy - that you are working with. Even, had I not committed these mistakes out of ignorance, the risk of a long term build-up of background damage could have been real, and hence an experienced teacher who could spot if this was happening, would still be required.

 

As much as I am for information being available to people, I don't longer adhere to that principle 100%. I consider publishing these books irresponsible, in the same way that you don't put knives and explosives close to a baby. One could still discuss the general outlines and requirements of these practices, without giving out practice instructions, and geared toward the fact that ignorant well-meaning people will attempt to do these since they are confused about basically every proper experience that would constitute a foundation, and will not recognize energetic abnormality when it occurs. I myself wish I never had laid hands on these books, and that they were not published at all.

 

And yes, in the end my damage healed by itself. It could have been worse, so I was lucky!

 

 

Love,

Mandrake

[BaguaKicksAss]

Thank you for sharing that Mandrake. I hope you were able to find an experienced teacher after all that to get the iron vest down well!

 

This reminds me to spend even more time with each student on this.

[kevin_wallbridge]

I confess to have a fairly strong aversion to Mantak Chia's publishing empire. I find him to be like the "Anarchist's Cookbook" of the Qigong world. There is nothing intrinsic to a recipe for home-made thermite that is evil, but is it really responsible to just put it out there?

 

I know two people who had trained Qigong with me at one time who ended up at (different) HT workshops and damaged themselves as a result. One was able to get treatment from my colleague in Chinese medicine and recovered from the heart-fire (insomnia for weeks, palpitations that put her in fear for her life, etc.), but the other was homeless on the lower east side of Vancouver the last time I saw him. A full blown 走火入魔 fire chasing demon.

 

There are some lessons that cannot be grasped without the foundational context, and showing up and paying is not necessarily enough background. Neither is sincerity. Without guidance it can be very hard to distinguish sensation from symptom, especially with Qigong.

 

As for 铁衫 iron shirt, I have trained Bagua and Xinyi Liuhe versions of it. I often prescribe one of the lighter solo versions for stimulating immuno-response during seasonal changes (I teach my martial arts outdoors all year long in the Canadian mountains). The versions I know all involve quite vigorous physical blows to the trunk, so they fall into 硬功 hard Qigong. Some are done with the hands on your own body, some are done by hitting yourself against a wall or pillar, and one (the Xinyi version) is all two person drills with you and your partner slamming into each other. While standing can be a part of the training it is not necessarily a part of all iron shirt traditions. I also train a "soft" iron palm that is largely standing which includes two iron shirt postures at the end of the set.

 

As for its connection to Taijiquan, there is no mention of iron shirt in the classics and any association probably comes from boxers of other systems who trained Taijiquan later in their careers and added it in.

Edited July 24, 2013 by kevin_wallbridge

[ChiDragon]

FYI.....
铁布衫, iron cloth shirt, is the official Chinese term. It is an independent form from all other martial arts. It was considered as a Nei Kung because the force was issued internally to repel anyone who is within the effective perimeter of the practitioner. Nei Kung(內功) supports Hard Gong(硬功) because nothing can penetrate through the body of the practitioner. In addition, the initial practice of iron cloth shirt(铁布衫) starts with Chi Kung(氣功) with the basic fundamental breathing method as described by Vatilii or the UMB by yours truly.

[kevin_wallbridge]

I see. I have never heard anyone call it that. In my experience it was just 铁杉 tieshan or 铁杉功 tieshangong. Though I did meet a soldier in China who called it 铁身功法 tieshen gongfa or iron body training method.

 

Everyone who I have trained with who also trains iron-cloth-shirt has treated in as 外功 Waigong rather than 内功 Neigong. I have never heard anyone before discuss it as Neigong before. My Qigong teachers in China did do quite a bit of 硬功 hard gong and there was certainly a great deal of cultivation that they undertook to practice it, yet they still considered it "external."

 

I think one point I was trying to make is that in my experience there are many different practices that fall under the umbrella of Iron-cloth-shirt, yet they do not all take the same approach. The Xinyi Liuhequan method for example is not a Qigong-first method. Certainly breath control is a key component, yet there is no preparation other than hitting softer at first. Can we really talk about THE iron-shirt Qigong or is it AN iron-shirt Qigong?