Qi: Evolution & Entropy

[Seph]

Qi: Evolution & Entropy

 

I believe we are entering a new and uncharted world. A spiritual world some might argue; a world in which answers are needed. And for the first time in modernity, a world in which science cannot provide all the answers.

 

Recently there seems to be a 'theme' occurring with the books that are falling in my lap; that I am reading and reviewing.

 

The Enoch Factor, by Brian McSwain, Evolution's Purpose by Steve McIntosh or, A New Earth, by Eckhart Tolle to name a few. In one way or another they all share the similar theme of an evolving universe or our relationship to it. This has led me to revisit and reread Yatri's Unknown Man: The Mysterious Birth of a New Species.

In 1988 I read Unknown Man. Much of it I didn't absorb or retain. What little I can remember was that Man was going to evolve and a new human species (homo novus?) was among us. Twenty-five years later I am reading it again. I think I simply wasn't well enough read or versed to take most of it in at the time. I think this marked the solidified beginning of my spiritual sojourney.

What these books (including Unknown Man) all have in common is the idea of the universe evolving in a direction. From the Big Bang to cosmic evolution, to elemental evolution, to a geosphere, to a biosphere, to a social-cultural evolution, and - potentially - to the Noosphere.

Although it is something I believe, I needed to find some way of rationalizing it (from my own knowledge, experiences, and encounters) without resorting to a supernatural answer - without some sort of belief in 'magic'.

I found my answers in Taoism and my personal encounters with acupuncture and my Qi.

 

The ancient sages of China noticed the whole of creation was reflected in each of its parts. An atom is a miniature solar system. A human body is a miniature universe. The inner world they called the micro-cosmos, the outer world they called the macro-cosmos.

A basic belief of Taoism (and much of Chinese acupuncture) is that the human being is a microcosm of the universe. The living 'life-force' - this Qi - permeates all things living, and flows and ebbs.

What is Qi?

 

 

"Qi is the energy that underlies everything in the universe. If it is condensed it becomes matter or if refined it becomes spirit...

 

"

Qi is variously called ki in Japan, prana in India and rlun in Tibet. It has been translated in various other ways including 'influences', 'life force', 'breath' or 'vital energy'.

 

"If you tried to see particles of Qi through a microscope you would not find it, but the restoration of its balance is vital to restore a patient's health. Everything that is living, moving and vibrating does so because this invisible substance moves through it."

Angela Hicks,

"The Acupuncture Handbook"

Piatkus, 2005, pg. 101-102

Entropy: Everything in the universe seems to move towards this direction. From order to disorder. Things eventually break, wear out, or breakdown. We don't see things fix themselves.

 

However, Life seems to work against entropy, or at least challenges it. Living things evolve. Living creatures - living systems - become increasingly more complex and more organized.

 

Evolution and Entropy are quite literally the universe's Yin and Yang.

 

 

The symbol of Yin and Yang is a beautifully harmonious representation of this flow and ebb and abundance of Qi in the universe, reaching its fullest potential, then transforming into its opposite - like a bellows opening, creating space and filling with air, then closing and collapsing, expelling the air - continually flowing, flexible, and moving.

What is true within a living being is also true within the universe. If this is true on a macro-scale (cosmos) and also reflectively true on a micro-scale (living beings), then there is no reason to believe it cannot true on a intermediate, or meso-scale.

Qi is simply various forms of energy that flows and ebbs between the two; what allows them to 'move' and 'become'. (Maybe Qi is negative entropy; negentropic energy?)

Qi energy can flow and pass - or a least influence - one another. When or if this occurs and becomes active or 'activated', it will accelerate and amplify.

I believe this action is, or can become, this Noosphere.

This is the next evolutionary step of mankind. (Or from a Taoist point of view, possibly a devolution to return to the Great Integrity - the Tao).

When James Lovelock as asked by NASA in 1964 to figure out a way of detecting life on Mars, he questioned exactly what was life and how would he look for it? His answer?

 

 

"I'd look for an entropy reduction, since this must be a general characteristic of life"

 

The Noosphere is like a bubble, kind of like a force-field protecting those within from the surrounding entropy; a safe-zone where the local entropy has been reduced to zero, or even a deficit.

 

I know there are a great amount of opinions as to what exactly this Noosphere is or might be. From Vernadsky's to Teilhard's definitions, to the Gaia Hypothesis to a world like that in James Cameron's movie Avatar, even to a planet wide Mind with its synapses being the inter connectivity of the internet.

 

Many cultures would seem to be aware of it by various names. The Abrahamic Faiths hold onto utopian dreams of Heaven and the past Garden of Eden. Hinduism and Buddhism hold onto Moksha and Nirvana (both being utopian states of mind rather than places), and Taoism has Lao Tzu's perfect moral culture. Even Humanism has the idea that "human beings... can build an enduring citadel of peace and beauty upon this earth" (The World Great Religions, Time Incorporated, New York, 1957)

 

I'm not sure it's overly important what it might be. It's not here yet; it's coming. It will be what it will be. It can't (or shouldn't) be forced.

Edited May 24, 2013 by Seph

[Stosh]

The 'morality' of Lao ?

 

that there .. may depend on your definition

and the interp of the lingo that you read about it in.

 

My personal take, is that what was being discussed is

more akin to expediency than -goodness or behavioral conformity.

but to salve consciences ...

Id just point out that the end results , harmony , "karma" of either property

morality or expedience ,,can be quite similar and often identical

Its just the motivations that differ.

 

I personally dont go for the Noosphere or chi things mentioned

but entropy is a good simile for the yin principle.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Stosh

[Seph]

I personally dont go for the Noosphere or chi things mentioned

 

I'll grant that it could be open to discussion and/or definition, but chi (Qi) is pretty difficult 'not to go for'.

[Stosh]

I'll grant that it could be open to discussion and/or definition, but chi (Qi) is pretty difficult 'not to go for'.

I don't know what you mean. If it is breath..what is there to believe about it?

That you can blow it at people?

Things called living , are merely arrangements of things called non-living--

as in co2 o2 and cellular membranes.

 

[Seph]

I don't know what you mean. If it is breath..what is there to believe about it? That you can blow it at people? Things called living , are merely arrangements of things called non-living-- as in co2 o2 and cellular membranes.

I don't think I follow you...

...sorry.

[Stosh]

I don't think I follow you......sorry.

I am told that chi is breath. A pysical function understood but having ramifications.

If it is thought as an energy special to living things, one needs to delineate just what they think is the difference between inorganic and organic. (Since organisms are assemblages of inorganic materials.

 

 

I inhale the breath of julius caesar

And exhale a tree.

[Seph]

I am told that chi is breath. A pysical function understood but having ramifications. If it is thought as an energy special to living things, one needs to delineate just what they think is the difference between inorganic and organic. (Since organisms are assemblages of inorganic materials. I inhale the breath of julius caesar And exhale a tree.

Well, as the original post quoted,

 

"Qi is the energy that underlies everything in the universe. If it is condensed it becomes matter or if refined it becomes spirit...

 

"

Qi is variously called ki in Japan, prana in India and rlun in Tibet. It has been translated in various other ways including 'influences', 'life force', 'breath' or 'vital energy'.

 

"If you tried to see particles of Qi through a microscope you would not find it, but the restoration of its balance is vital to restore a patient's health. Everything that is living, moving and vibrating does so because this invisible substance moves through it."

...and as I opened saying, "I believe we are entering a new and uncharted world. A spiritual world some might argue; a world in which answers are needed. And for the first time in modernity, a world in which science cannot provide all the answers."

 

If this Qi cannot be seen 'under a microscope' doesn't mean it is nonexistent.

Science cannot hold the answer to everything there is. That would simply be mechanistic scientism.

Well... I suppose Mechanistic Scientism is a type of belief. I guess one could hold that point of view.

 

I'm willing to speculate what this Qi is or isn't. But I'm not willing to deny its existence.

I've seen first hand the successes of acupuncture, and it is wholly based upon the existence of Qi and its flow.

Edited May 24, 2013 by Seph

[Stosh]

That's an interesting argument!

Though I don't think accupuncture proves qi is some

Binding energy of universe , that is just one huge unsubstantiated claim.

 

How would poking needles in the body affect an unfindable force?

Needles are just physical things.

The mechanism of thorazine and antibiotics are understood

Why should one not conclude similarly that stimulation of nerves

Or psychosomatic responses or even immuno responses

Was not the mechanism of accpuncture?

Edited May 24, 2013 by Stosh

[Seph]

That's an interesting argument!

Though I don't think accupuncture proves qi is some

Binding energy of universe , that is just one huge unsubstantiated claim.

 

How would poking needles in the body affect an unfindable force?

Needles are just physical things.

The mechanism of thorazine and antibiotics are understood

Why should one not conclude similarly that stimulation of nerves

Or psychosomatic responses or even immuno responses

Was not the mechanism of accpuncture?

Just because Western medicine doesn't recognize it doesn't invalidate it.

Eastern medicine (acupuncture specifically) has 'mapped out' the body's meridian lines (I think that's what it's called).

In fact, Western medicine is beginning to recognize it now.

 

I can speak directly from experience, and I don't buy the psychosomatic angle. I can't say much more on this point because it's simply my experience (both with properly trained and not so properly trained acupuncturists).

 

I'm still not really clear where you're heading with this topic...?

What? You don't believe in acupuncture or Qi beyond it being breath? Okay. Really, that's fine. I'm not here to sell it to you.

Just don't write it off as a bunch of hooey, please.

[Stosh]

Just because Western medicine doesn't recognize it doesn't invalidate it.Eastern medicine (acupuncture specifically) has 'mapped out' the body's meridian lines (I think that's what it's called).In fact, Western medicine is beginning to recognize it now. I can speak directly from experience, and I don't buy the psychosomatic angle. I can't say much more on this point because it's simply my experience (both with properly trained and not so properly trained acupuncturists). I'm still not really clear where you're heading with this topic...?What? You don't believe in acupuncture or Qi beyond it being breath? Okay. Really, that's fine. I'm not here to sell it to you.Just don't write it off as a bunch of hooey, please.

Where I was going with i t wasthst accupuncture was your reason to believe in qi , but you don't know what its mechanism is.

If you don't know what the mechanism is you haven't got any reason to expect the scope of it goes beyond yourself indicating a property of the universe.

It could justcas easily mean, that even if the practice of sticking needles in people works it doesn't mean that accupuncturists really know what they are actually doing.

Its really very simple,

The fact that various people do not agree, on the principle of qi , is no proof at all that they are talking about the same idea. And if I have no idea what I am doing, then again there is no proof that I understand anything ! Especially to defy or contest scientifically derived fact.

The whole action of the scientific process , is to separate good information from hooey.

The term science , as you used it ,"western science" is an oxymoron. Since its founding principle is that the rules apply everywhere for everyone always ( so they can be verfied AS facts. Rather than fantasy)

2500 years ago they didnt know what electricity and oxygen and cellular biology were, but they wanted to explain things as best they could--so you end up with ideas like qi that need to pared down in light of what has been learned since then.

 

[Stosh]

Ill make it even simpler for you.
I drive up to a streetlight and it is red
At some short while later it turns green
This allows me to proceed on my way safely.
So I conclude there is a loving god concerned
With the wellbeing of humanity.
After all- I can't see anything regulating that streetlight.

No mechanism , no way to understand what made it happen
No mechanism , no science
No dependable laws of physics, the world is rendered an unknowable chaos
and you can't be sure gravity is going to keep your car keys on the table.

 

Anyway , I think youve got your 'five posts' so you can go beyond the lobby

Edited May 24, 2013 by Stosh

[Seph]

Thank you for attempting to make your point better understood without being too condescending.

 

I've debated on how exactly to address your posts on this issue.

 

I actually have a good handle on how scientific methodology works. I also understand that not everything can successfully be addressed by science.

 

When you talk about the “whole action of the scientific process is to separate good information from hooey”, I agree with what you're saying to a point. It is science's domain to observe and report. I wouldn't describe it's purpose as separating fact from fiction, but rather to build theory (or hypotheses) and to avoid anti-theories. (The difference is basically a theory can always and only ever be potentially proven wrong ('good' science), while an anti-theory can always and only ever potentially be proven correct ('bad' science).)

 

I think it's important to understand this disctinction becasue it avoids confusing – scienctifically – facts with truths. Only Mechanistic Scientism believes these two things are always synonymous (and that is a faith or belief-system of its own).

 

Most good science (and scientists) realize there are areas outside the realms of science. (Hawkings' acknowledgment that attempting to look even a nanosecond before the Big Bang is scientifically futile. It belongs in the realm of theology, or religion, or maybe even philosophy).

 

Modern day science generally (but not exclusively) accepts string-theory, for example. But string-theory better fits the description of an anti-theory. It isn't really science. It's bad science. (and yes, it may one dy be found to be sound, but it's still bad methodology).

 

In our endevour to seek out the truth, science is one of several good an useful tools, but not the only one. Seeking out truth is akin to a three-legged stool. (A stool with 1 or 2 legs falls down). Those three legs are Science, Philosophy, and Spirituality.

 

I find it interesting and odd that you would outright discredit something because (and these are your words) “you don't know what its mechanism is”, especially on a Taoist discussion forum. Clearly and unequivocally – according to your exclusive scientific parameters – the Tao itself is nothing but hooey. (“The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao. The name that can be named is not the eternal name”). And along with the Tao so would be Yin and Yang. (yet you're willing to accept Entropy as simile for Yin?)

 

I'm confused.... or are you just being argumentative?

I'm not here for an argument. So, unless you have something constructive to add here, I'm done.

[Stosh]

My condecention was an expression of annoyance at number of I don't understands.

Post up what you either do or do not think a thing meant and I don't have to dispel a universe of all the things you might be considering, or rephrasing what I felt had been phrased the way I wanted it.

Yes all of science doesn't know the mechanism of tao itself.

But you either think qi manipulation would abide by "rules" and is repeatable (and there fore is susceptible to scientifc inquiry ) Or it isn't repeatable (and therefore is hooey) because you obviously consider it to be a real physical thing-energy interacting with a body and needles along predictable meridians, rather than only with a mind (which would be in line with psychosomatic effect.)

 

[Stosh]

Yes string theory is hype for mathematical description of matter.

Yes I think descriptions of the prebig bang universe is bullshit

Yes philosophers and clerics will also try to attribute the big bang to things

to anchor their beliefs in something that can never be disproven.

Stools abide by physical laws , they don't explain why one could not rely

on either one or two or even zero of the legs exclusively.

Edited May 26, 2013 by Stosh

[Stosh]

Your quote on the tao not being describable or nameable , is based on but one angle if interpretation, one of many.

I didn't say anything confusing , for you to be confused requires your participation

The reason why your participation renders you not-understanding so often ,is that you are making false assumptions about my rationale .

 

You are welcome

That I responded to your post when no one else did.

Yes I guess we are done here.

Edited May 26, 2013 by Stosh

[exorcist_1699]

Some ideas:

- Not all qi is negative entropy, only the refined one , the so-called Meta-qi, or Shen, can be said to be counteracting entropy, reversing the process of energy dispersal in a system . In the human body, the saddest thing can only be the dispersal of jing,
which force the time vector of our existence pointing towards an irreversible process and end : death;

As the " Book of Simplicity" (<<素書>>) says:

"悲莫悲于精散" ( " the most miserable thing in life is the dispersal of our jing")

 

(Fortunately in this world, there is something called Taoist alchemy ..)


-Ordinary qi can only delay and limit the speed and spread of entropy, not eliminate it; Only Shen can totally eliminate entropy;

( it , in this sense , acts as some kind of information organizing , manipulating the process...) ; of course, capable of doing so means the attainment of eternal life ,both physically and spiritually ;

Proof? A lot; please see my latest post on this forum about Taoist proof ; not want to repeat here.



- A needle , of course, can only initialize ordinary qi, not the Meta one; that is why acupuncture never claim giving us immortality,but curing some diseases only .

[Seph]

@exorist_1699

 

Thank you.

[HarmoniousUniverse]

Entropy always makes way for new life

[exorcist_1699]

The fact that acupuncture applies on animals ,and there is a history of more than thousand years of using it in Veterinary medicine in China , does refute the accusation that qi is some kind of autosuggestion, created by some people;

The point is, when the observed or measurable results found in contrast to the basic scientific theory , what do we do ? Whether we ignore the results or try to admit the inadequacy of our theory ?

Taoist alchemy clearly states that, for example,

- Aging can be stopped and reversed, therefore immortality is possible ;

-Spirit , after having nourished by qi ,can exist outside our body;

(to Taoists, a yin-typed ghost outside our body is hardly of any interest ; maybe the Tibetans or others are interested in exploring them, not Taoists)

-Future, although not yet happens, can be predicted;

just raise few of them that are all contradictory to what science believes...(I am sorry that if mention of them outrage the followers of philosophical Taoism..).

However, an indepth grasp of Taoist jing-qi-Shen theory makes us see through them as something reasonable, without the necessity of relying on any religious theory. Such an unique feature of Taoism is , sadly , ignored by many people whom are always entangled by conventional wisdom of classifying what is science, what is religion...

Edited May 28, 2013 by exorcist_1699

[Seph]

The point is, when the observed or measurable results found in contrast to the basic scientific theory , what do we do ? Whether we ignore the results or try to admit the inadequacy of our theory ?

I know! I hear you brother!

That was the point I was making. This would be an example of an Anti-theory, or 'bad science', to ignore the results that contrast our basic scientific theory that we hold (and obviously hope to maintain) to be true.

That's not science. That's faith.

... and that was my point.