ChiForce Posted April 27, 2013 Well, I have been reading Master Nan's Diamond Sutra and he spent a good portion in talking about Buddhism in general. He brought up the topic of arhats. Supposedly, an arhat has to under go 7 rebirths in order to reach full enlightenment. As you reached closer to your 7th rebirth, your habit energy would lose its clinging power. He even talked about it is possible for "anyone" can be living in their 3rd or 4th rebirth because one may find oneself more interested in nature and outdoor life style. Or one may find there are more things important in life than wealth, money, career, and women. Or someone just not really interested in the cyclical and repetitive nature of our worldly existence because they understood them in early age. I do wonder if I were once an arhat. I have one dream in which I remembered that I was a monk in a lecture hall. I was with other monks. There was this Indian guru talking about something. He asked us if we can see the vase on the table with our third eyes. So, everyone is trying to see this vase on the table with their third eyes. I saw a half empty white vase on a white table. And I told him what I saw. He then said that I didn't see the white vase on the white table. Is one of those Diamond Sutra principle of non-clinging. I was confused for the moment and then I became self conscious of my being. I looked down at myself and realized that I was wearing the robe of an abbot monk. I woke up after that. I also had a dream about being persecuted as a Buddhist monk by certain Chinese emperor. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cheshire Cat Posted April 27, 2013 I do wonder if I were once an arhat. [...] Beware of these hindrances! 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idiot_stimpy Posted April 27, 2013 7 re-births or purifying the 7 bodies? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idiot_stimpy Posted April 27, 2013 Beware of these hindrances! Yes, it can be a trap of the mind to believe in this line of thinking. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Seeker of Wisdom Posted April 28, 2013 An arhat would have no sense of attainment or one who attains. We aren't there quite yet. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiForce Posted April 28, 2013 Yes, it can be a trap of the mind to believe in this line of thinking. This is the case only if your cultivation level is not sufficient. By understanding your own Buddha nature, it helps your life destiny. If you are able to reach to certain degree of samadhi and to have possessed various wisdom and have some ideas about your past life, you are already not clinging to anything to begin with. It is about the idea of knowing who you are and were and not clinging to it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiForce Posted April 28, 2013 An arhat would have no sense of attainment or one who attains. We aren't there quite yet. For the fact that you are or were an arhat, you have not attained full enlightenment. Maybe partially. An arhat is supposedly not interested in saving sentient beings but to liberate only himself from the cycle of suffering. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DragonScholar Posted May 5, 2013 Well, I have been reading Master Nan's Diamond Sutra and he spent a good portion in talking about Buddhism in general. He brought up the topic of arhats. Supposedly, an arhat has to under go 7 rebirths in order to reach full enlightenment. As you reached closer to your 7th rebirth, your habit energy would lose its clinging power. Not to nitpick, but I believe that it is a stream-enterer (sotāpanna), not an arhat, who has 7 more rebirths. Stream-enterers will be reborn in either the human realm or in one of the heavens. The next stage is called a once-returner (sakadagami), as they have one more rebirth in the human realm. The third stage is a non-returner (anāgāmi), one who will be reborn in a Pure Abode. The final stage is that of the arhat, one who has cut off all of the fetters. Arhats have attained full liberation from saṃsāra and are not reborn. This is according to the Nikayas (oldest Buddhist texts). Mahayana schools have completely different models of the stages of enlightenment. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted May 5, 2013 Arhat means someone who has nirvana ( cessation ). This is an extreme from the Mahayana point of view. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiForce Posted May 5, 2013 Not to nitpick, but I believe that it is a stream-enterer (sotāpanna), not an arhat, who has 7 more rebirths. Stream-enterers will be reborn in either the human realm or in one of the heavens. The next stage is called a once-returner (sakadagami), as they have one more rebirth in the human realm. The third stage is a non-returner (anāgāmi), one who will be reborn in a Pure Abode. The final stage is that of the arhat, one who has cut off all of the fetters. Arhats have attained full liberation from saṃsāra and are not reborn. This is according to the Nikayas (oldest Buddhist texts). Mahayana schools have completely different models of the stages of enlightenment. According to Master Nan, both Hinyana and Mahayana schools aren't separate but stages....unless he is wrong. You know.... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted May 5, 2013 According to Master Nan, both Hinyana and Mahayana schools aren't separate but stages....unless he is wrong. You know.... Hinayana stages are different than Mahayana stages (bhumis). An arhat is only a stage in Mahayana, in the sense that an arhat has to start on the bhumis. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiForce Posted May 5, 2013 Arhat means someone who has nirvana ( cessation ). This is an extreme from the Mahayana point of view. Hmm...I don't care so much about its meaning and its definition (its meaning changes as soon as the practitioners are walking the path) ....but how it is understood, in this case, from the viewpoint of Master Nan. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiForce Posted May 5, 2013 Hinayana stages are different than Mahayana stages (bhumis). An arhat is only a stage in Mahayana, in the sense that an arhat has to start on the bhumis. I don't think they are different. Why would Master Nan talk about the Hinayana as a lower vehicle for the greater vehicle of Mahayana??? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted May 5, 2013 I don't think they are different. Why would Master Nan talk about the Hinayana as a lower vehicle for the greater vehicle of Mahayana??? An arhat is awakened from nirvana by the Buddhas, and has to start all over again on the Mahayana path (the bhumis). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiForce Posted May 5, 2013 An arhat is awakened from nirvana by the Buddhas, and has to start all over again on the Mahayana path (the bhumis). Hmm....I am not going to discuss how does one become enlightened and to experience nirvana.... Or whether or not Buddha himself awakens you or not.... Again, according to Master Nan, both Hinayana and Mahayana aren't different or separated but stages. On page 114 to page 129, in his Diamond Sutra, he explained clearly the differences or processes between Hinayana and Mahayana. He even went so far to say that there are no other ways to liberate oneself and all sentient beings without experiencing both Hinayana and Mahayana.... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted May 5, 2013 Well since you didn't yet post what Master Nan actually says, I'm going to have to go dig it up. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiForce Posted May 5, 2013 Well since you didn't yet post what Master Nan actually says, I'm going to have to go dig it up. Well, I can't because I have to type up the whole paragraphs....unless there is an electronic version of his Diamond Sutra.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted May 5, 2013 He even went so far to say that there are no other ways to liberate oneself and all sentient beings without experiencing both Hinayana and Mahayana.... If he said that he is wrong. No wonder scholars use the term Indo-Tibetan Buddhism, since Tibetan Buddhism (and not Chinese Buddhism) is the direct heir to Indian Buddhism. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiForce Posted May 5, 2013 (edited) If he said that he is wrong. No wonder scholars use the term Indo-Tibetan Buddhism, since Tibetan Buddhism (and not Chinese Buddhism) is the direct heir to Indian Buddhism. Hmmm...so Master Nan is wrong. Hmm....yeah, ok. FYI, the Diamond Sutra was translated into Chinese more than few thousands years ago. Surely, Buddhism must have been influenced by Taosim by now.... Edited May 5, 2013 by ChiForce Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted May 5, 2013 Hmmm...so Master Nan is wrong. Hmm....yeah, ok. FYI, the Diamond Sutra was translated into Chinese more than few thousands years ago. Surely, Buddhism must have been influenced by Taosim by now.... Maybe your Chinese Buddhism. I follow the Indo-Tibetan tradition. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiForce Posted May 5, 2013 Maybe your Chinese Buddhism. I follow the Indo-Tibetan tradition. Sigh...do you know how silly you sound? Master Nan is a master in Esoteric Tibetan Buddhism and went to Tibet and studied under many masters. And has been confirmed by them. Now, you are saying he is wrong. Hehehehe......yeah, ok. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted May 5, 2013 Sigh...do you know how silly you sound? Master Nan is a master in Esoteric Tibetan Buddhism and went to Tibet and studied under many masters. And has been confirmed by them. Now, you are saying he is wrong. Hehehehe......yeah, ok. If he is right, then everyone else is wrong. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted May 5, 2013 So are you saying you have to become an arhat first, and then a Buddha? Ridiculous. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiForce Posted May 5, 2013 If he is right, then everyone else is wrong. One is only as right as much as it allows them to obtain enlightenment and to be liberated.... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiForce Posted May 5, 2013 (edited) So are you saying you have to become an arhat first, and then a Buddha? Ridiculous. Hmmm...you sounded very offended. From what experiences and authority you have to say that you know the dhrama to become a Buddha.... Edited May 5, 2013 by ChiForce Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
