Ultimate Goal

[taijistudent]

I have a question regarding what the ultimate goal of Taoism is or even if there is a single answer to that question considering the variety of forms Taoism has taken across the expanse of time.

 

One may think of the Dao as The Way.

 

But what Way? This is the discussion. Whatever you decide, what ever path you choose to follow, is Your Way. We choose our own paths in life.

 

But how do I choose? I follow the path of health and good sleep. This path speaks to me. It allows me to flourish. I dance, I sing, I play music, I meditate, I exercise, I write, I read, I play sports. And when I feel unhealthy, I stop and reconsider. Maybe slightly alter my path?

 

How many Ways are there? As many as there are. You may choose this Way or that Way. The Dao is the flow of time within you, the creative impetus, the memory of the experiences, and the goals we seek.

 

How to choose? This above all: To thine own self be true.

[dawei]

 

Okay, so what? It still didn't make any sense.

 

Maybe someone else can explain it. It's throughout the DDJ... and most all daoist texts.

[Kongming]

Interesting. Here is another question I have that I feel is better to ask here than start another thread for:

 

What is the relation of consciousness to the Dao or how is consciousness viewed in Daoism? For example, is it the case (as in many Indic traditions) that our "true nature" is actually Dao? Are the practices in Daoism such as zuowang or internal alchemy used to integrate our limited egoic consciousness into the Dao, thereby achieving immortality/freedom/bliss, etc. etc.?

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Interesting. Here is another question I have that I feel is better to ask here than start another thread for:

 

What is the relation of consciousness to the Dao or how is consciousness viewed in Daoism? For example, is it the case (as in many Indic traditions) that our "true nature" is actually Dao? Are the practices in Daoism such as zuowang or internal alchemy used to integrate our limited egoic consciousness into the Dao, thereby achieving immortality/freedom/bliss, etc. etc.?

 

There is a range. There is Wu-Wei at an every day level, non-action/non-contrivance, where contriving to be non-contriving is at odds.

 

Then there are further practices where one's organs pulse with the universe like the tide pulses with the moon.

 

There's more and more to be said about it, and it will vary from teacher to teacher, school to school, individual to individual.

[opendao]

 

It seems to me there is something wrong with the logic. How can a formless called the real person.

 

here is a Chinese text for Huainanzi quote above:

 

能反其所生，故未有形，謂之真人。

 

perhaps the logic is correct, because 真 = "true", not "real" in the context. Formless here could mean invisibility, I think, but even invisible person is still a person

 

 

Let me make it real simple to understand by comparing with two religions, Buddhism and Taoism.

In reality,

1. The ultimate goal of a living Buddhist monk is to become a Buddha.

2. The ultimate goal of a living Taoist priest is to become a Zhanren(a real person).

 

agree

 

A Zhanren is a living person who tries to keep his body in good health with no sicknesses from Taoist cultivation. By Taoist cultivation, it means that Taoists are in celibacy, eating special diet, and practice chi kung to preserve their bodies for longevity. In reality, if a Zhanren can live over 100 years, may be considered to be an immortal. In mythology, an immortal is when the soul left the body and rose to heaven.

 

Both definitions are not really fitted into the traditional point of view. You can compare with Huangdi Neijing :

 

余聞上古有真人者，提挈天地，把握陰陽，呼吸精氣，獨立守神，肌肉若一，故能壽敝天地，旡有終時，此其道生。

 

(sorry, don't have English text, but it's from the first chapter).

 

Is it about celibacy? Diet? Do you know any modern Qigong that allows to get the longevity of Heaven and Earth?

[opendao]

Interesting. Here is another question I have that I feel is better to ask here than start another thread for:

 

What is the relation of consciousness to the Dao or how is consciousness viewed in Daoism? For example, is it the case (as in many Indic traditions) that our "true nature" is actually Dao? Are the practices in Daoism such as zuowang or internal alchemy used to integrate our limited egoic consciousness into the Dao, thereby achieving immortality/freedom/bliss, etc. etc.?

 

Consciousness is not an object in Daoist practice (Neidan). It's called 識神, "spirit of knowing". It has to be eliminated / transformed.

 

True Nature is a Xing 性, one of the objects of the practice. Another is Ming 命 - fate or life. Only by the dual cultivation of Xing and Ming a person can attain Dao. Our "limited egoic consciousness" cannot be integrated into the Dao, because by itself our consciousness is an obstacle on the Way.

[opendao]

 

Religions - faiths are culturally generated things , I doubt very much that individuals would arrive at them all by their lonesome at all so society is likely the generator of the things not spiriual insight of the individuals themselves.

 

All true traditions were created by individuals based on what they learnt from their teachers. After that, the society came to work and made from the practice a social toy called "religion" ...

Edited March 20, 2013 by opendao

[opendao]

Whats a good book/ source on the different stages of practice?

 

The teacher is the best source. Now you know what questions to ask when you meet any masters

 

About books, I cannot recommend anything... The classification I wrote is from Zhong Lü Chuan Dao Ji (鐘呂傳道集/钟吕传道集; Anthology of the Transmission of the Dao from Zhong[li Quan] to Lü [Dongbin]). But you need to make a big work to parallel it to a more known scheme of cultivation: foundation, Jing to Qi, Qi to Shen, Shen to Dao and so on.

Edited March 20, 2013 by opendao

[Kongming]

Consciousness is not an object in Daoist practice (Neidan). It's called 識神, "spirit of knowing". It has to be eliminated / transformed.

 

True Nature is a Xing 性, one of the objects of the practice. Another is Ming 命 - fate or life. Only by the dual cultivation of Xing and Ming a person can attain Dao. Our "limited egoic consciousness" cannot be integrated into the Dao, because by itself our consciousness is an obstacle on the Way.

 

Yes, egoic consciousness is something to be eliminated or transformed, I agree. I was speaking of super-consciousness or universal consciousness, beyond the limiting factors of a personal consciousness. Does such a concept exist in Daoism? Is the Dao itself a universal cosmic consciousness that is the source of the world of space-time and the myriad of things? Does the Dao have awareness or intelligence?

[Stosh]

 

Invisible, undetected, having no- net effect , objective , impartial , undefined

Perhaps more than one creative use of the term has been implied all at the same time

[silas]

Yes, egoic consciousness is something to be eliminated or transformed, I agree. I was speaking of super-consciousness or universal consciousness, beyond the limiting factors of a personal consciousness. Does such a concept exist in Daoism? Is the Dao itself a universal cosmic consciousness that is the source of the world of space-time and the myriad of things? Does the Dao have awareness or intelligence?

 

Tao follows the way of spontaneity (TTC ch. 25; Wang, Keping, The Classic Of The Dao). That which is spontaneous acts impulsively. That which acts impulsively does not think. By emptying the mind, we become closer to Tao-nature.

 

In Classical Taoism, the Tao is likened to an organic machine. It Goes Like It Goes: Tao The Living Machine

Edited March 22, 2013 by silas

[ChiDragon]

here is a Chinese text for Huainanzi quote above:

 

能反其所生，故未有形，謂之真人。

 

perhaps the logic is correct, because 真 = "true", not "real" in the context. Formless here could mean invisibility, I think, but even invisible person is still a person

 

 

agree

 

 

Both definitions are not really fitted into the traditional point of view. You can compare with Huangdi Neijing :

 

余聞上古有真人者，提挈天地，把握陰陽，呼吸精氣，獨立守神，肌肉若一，故能壽敝天地，旡有終時，此其道生。

 

(sorry, don't have English text, but it's from the first chapter).

 

Is it about celibacy? Diet? Do you know any modern Qigong that allows to get the longevity of Heaven and Earth?

 

Thank you for bring this up, I almost missed your post.

 

能反其所生，故未有形，謂之真人。

If one can return to pre-birth, and no form yet, it was called Zhanren(a real person).

 

It sounds like a premature fetus to me.

 

 

"余聞上古有真人者，提挈天地，把握陰陽，呼吸精氣，獨立守神，肌肉若一，故能壽敝天地，旡有終時，此其道生。"

Here is the English:

I heard those who were Zhanren in the prehistoric time, hold onto heaven and earth, grasp the concept of yin-yang, breathe the essential elements, stand alone guarding the soul, muscles are integrated as one. Therefore, one can out live heaven and earth(rather than to get the longevity of Heaven and Earth). There is no end. This is what is called life.

 

Here is how I interpret it.

1. 獨立守神(stand alone guarding the soul)

I think "stand alone guarding the soul" has given us the implication of celibacy.

 

2. 呼吸精氣(breathe the essential elements)

Breathing may also implies absorb the essential foods as diet.

 

3. The is no such thing, IMO, as modern or ancient Chi Kung. Chi Kung is Chi Kung. I had convinced that all the demos of Chi Kung had mentioned breathe in and breathe out, inhale and exhale. Then, followed with the movements to gather the chi around us. Are we paying too much attention to the hand movements for gathering the universal chi to the low dan tian, while we are under the sublimation of breathing by the narrator....??? However, if we reverse our thoughts by putting the emphasis on the breathing while under the sublimation to concentrate on the body movements. Would that have had helped us to bring to a conclusion which breathing is really the function of Chi Kung rather than body movements.

 

If one think about it, one can breathe without the body movements; but we cannot just do the movements without the breathing. So, which is more important...??? May we come to a conclusion that chi kung is the ultimate method of breathing.

 

The classic writings are so esoteric and it's hard to grasp. Please correct me on my translation if I have made a mistake. Thanks.

Edited March 24, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Kongming]

It is interesting what the Sicilian Baron and esotericist Julius Evola had to say in regards to 真人 and wei-wu-wei:

 

 

 

Lao Tzu's notion of 'non-action' was certainly contrary to any philosophically immanent identification of subject and act, or of act and fact - an identification which I came decidedly to oppose, both in itself and in its historicist application. The (ultimately aristocratic) principle of non-involvement and impassibility is what stood at the centre of Lao Tzu's doctrine. By imitating a divine model, the 'Perfect One' - the 'true man' or 'transcendental man' of Taoism - never identifies himself with external reality. By never acting directly, by not externalizing his own ego through self-affirmation, and by, instead, actively renouncing to 'be' and to 'act' in a direct and conditioned way, the Perfect One achieves what is truly essential. Thus, he enters the Way and makes himself intangible, inexhaustible, invulnerable and insusceptible to any external attempt to subdue him or render him impotent. By virtue of such a process, the Perfect One also becomes capable of acting in a subtle, invisible and magical way: this is the meaning of the expression wei-wu-wei ('to act without acting'), which is also defined as the virtue (té) of the Way (Tao).

 

I was to discuss the principles of Taoism, as described by Lao Tzu, in a more faithful and precise manner about thirty-six years later, in 1959, when I was encouraged by a friend to write a second introduction to the Tao-té-ching. [...]

 

It is only in my later commentary on the text that I clearly emphasized how Taoism is defined by a kind of 'immanent transcendence': by the direct presence of non-being (in its positive sense of supra-ontological essentiality) within being, of the infinitely remote (the 'Sky') in what is close, and of what is beyond nature within nature. Only then did I clearly point out that Taoism is equally remote from both pantheistic immanence and transcendence, as it is founded on the direct sort of experience which underlies the specific existential structure of primeval humanity.

[shanlung]

Yes, egoic consciousness is something to be eliminated or transformed, I agree. I was speaking of super-consciousness or universal consciousness, beyond the limiting factors of a personal consciousness. Does such a concept exist in Daoism? Is the Dao itself a universal cosmic consciousness that is the source of the world of space-time and the myriad of things? Does the Dao have awareness or intelligence?

 

Extract from

http://www.shanlung.com/oldtaonirvana.html

 

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

 

ENLIGHTENMENT

 

From: khamba2 -

Date: Wed, Jun 2 1999 12:00 am

 

Groups: alt.philosophy.taoism

 

>When a person reaches the state of pure, total enlightment and absolute

>truth, what does this mean? Is it that they are now learning openly to

>the greatest of their potential? What sort of knowledge of reality

>emerges? What abilities does this give the person? How many truely

>enlightened masters exist, do you think? How do they live?

 

Sorry that I am answering with this is an old letter. I do hope the

words of Taoist Master Tseng Lao Weng can answer a bit of your

question

---------------------------------------------------------------------------­----

 

He was talking to this Taoist Master Tseng Lao Weng.

 

(now using also his format and capitalizations..)

--------------------------------------------------------

Having heard from me of Sir Edwin Arnold's lovely expression for

entering Nirvana, 'the dew-drop slips into the shining sea', he

exclaimed with delight, but added:

 

'And yet it does not capture the whole. Since the Tao is all and

nothing lies outside it, since its multiplicity and unity are

identical, when a finite being sheds the illusion of separate

existence, he is not lost in the Tao. By casting off his imaginary

limitations, he becomes immeasurable.

 

Plunge the finite into the infinite and, though only one remains, the

finite, far from being diminished, takes on the stature of infinity.

Such perception will bring you face to face with the true secret

cherished by all the accomplished sages. The mind of one who returns

to the Source thereby BECOMES the Source. Your own mind is DESTINED

TO BECOME THE UNIVERSE ITSELF!'

 

The Taoistic Idiot