Breath Meditation Experience

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hi,

 

This is a recount of today's meditation experiences.

 

I was sitting in my lazy boy, listening to the 29'th podcast from Allan Wallace's Dzogchen retreat. The instructions in the meditation were concerning sending un-pointed awareness to various locations surrounding the body (like up, to the right, to the left, down and then center). It was much the same practice that is found in his book called "Mind in a Balance".

 

At one point, I decided to just flex a little kundalini. I quickly focused on the lower tan tien, the little orange red ball just below the navel, then lightly flexed the lower locks and directed the energy to go down to the perineum, then to the tail bone, and then up the sushumna to the third eye. This was performed on an in-breath. This resulted in a gush of ecstasy and some minor heat and electric vibrations in the head, arms and up the central channel. I then became somewhat orgasmic and spent the next two hours in a state of low orgasmic bliss. I mention this because I feel it may have had some relevance to the events that transpired in the second meditation of the day.

 

During the second meditation of the day, I decided to do 1/2 hour of breath meditation and 1/2 an hour of "watching thoughts dissolve".

 

I performed the necessary preamble, set my Insight Timer for 1 hour with an interval bell at 30 minutes, did my dedication of merit to all sentient beings and proceeded to focus on the breath, specifically at the region in front of my nose, but not forcing any exact location. No sambhavi, no tongue on palette or any mudras or bhandas.. I was going to focus on just "Knowing" the breath. My goal was to achieve at least one minute of consecutive awareness on the breath.

 

There are many ways of watching the breath. Some teachers recommend fixating on the sensations at the nostrils. Some recommend just keeping the attention just above the upper lip. Others, like Ajahn Brahm, suggest not locating the breath anywhere. What I have learned is that by "knowing" the breath, the mind forms a mental representation of the breathing. This mental representation is known as a nimitta (mental sign). For me, it looks like a white cotton ball kind of light, which goes up on the in-breath and down on the out-breath. It is thick and is very helpful in establishing where the breath is in the up-down cycle.

 

I watched my breath. I also noticed the other little white light that resembles a small star. I have always wondered about that because often times I would see that other little white light appear when performing mantra repetition. I've also seen it when performing breath meditation by focusing on the navel area. That little white star seems to appear next to any location at which I am concentrating attention.

 

For this meditation, I was putting allot of emphasis on the out-breath, the downward motion of the breath and the very bottom of the breath where it stops just slightly, before turning back upwards. The emphasis on the out-breath is to help release thoughts from the mind. You can see it work. It is the body's natural function. Whenever we want to release bad or frightening thoughts, the body always takes a deep breath and then 'sighs' it out. That is the understanding that I have.

 

So, I was focusing on the out-breath more-so than the in breath and watching the cotton ball of the pale light of knowing the breath go up and down.

 

For some reason, it was easier to maintain a constant stream of attention on the breath this time. I was succeeding now whereas in previous meditations, I was perhaps obtaining a minute of unbroken attention.

 

As well, I could see the little star in the same region as cotton ball light.

 

As I watched the breath go up and down, putting emphasis on releasing thoughts (but not willfully interfering with the natural motion of the breath), I noticed that the surrounding mental landscape started to brighten up. The background looked like there was a white cloud behind the scene. I just kept focusing on the cotton-ball-mental-representation-of-the-breath moving upwards and downwards, putting emphasis on the out-breath, releasing a bit on the bottom of the exhale.

 

It was actually kind of easy to mantain unwavering attention on the breath, going up and down.

 

Then, all of a sudden, I dissociated from my body. I could feel my locus of physical location start floating about. Then, the cotton ball light of knowing of the breath started to drift closer and closer to my witnessing consciousness. It got bigger and kind of floated about. I thought that I must have been at the point where the body drops away. This is a typical experience, sometimes my arms come right out of the physical arms and the feel like they are wrapped around my abdomen, but when I look, the arms are still on the upper thighs..

 

The 30 minute bell went off and I was going to watch my thoughts for a while, but I decided to stick with the breath meditation, because it was going so well. I don't often succeed at maintaining a steady stream of awareness on the breath as I have only been doing serious breath meditation for about 3 months. I heard it takes about 6 weeks of practising 8 hours a day before you can watch the breath without willfully controlling it!

 

As the visual image of knowing the breath at a specific location (cotton ball of light) came closer, the center of the little star opened up and I could see visions of scenes, faces and colors in it. I ignored the display and kept focusing on the breath. The visions of scenes and faces got more intense, and numerous. They started whizzing by rapidly. I ignored them once again and went back to watching the breath go up and down. Gradually, my breathing was becoming slower and slower. The in and out breaths were maybe moving 1/2 an inch up and down, whereas before it may have been moving 2 inches up and down (relatively speaking). The breathing became very shallow and almost nonexistent, but I kept focusing on it.

 

Next, the top of my head opened up and I saw the black descending from above, had the fear of death and thought I was going to melt downwards. However, I was so sick of bowing to this fear that I just ignored it and went back to focusing on the breath. Empty threats!

 

I went back to watching the center of the little star.

 

Then it happened. All of a sudden, I found myself in this wide open luminous space. Very vivid! Nothing much in there, like hanging out in open space. It felt like normal consciousness, like I was just sitting there, doing nothing in particular, but looking out into this dark self-luminous space. The monkey mind, the incessant commentary that the mind does was gone.

 

Not totally realizing what had happened, I thought I should go back to watching the breath, so I looked at the same location where the cotton ball light and the little star had been. Instead of a white cloud-like substance moving up and down or the litlle star, there was a black crack that sort of looked like a spider's web or series of connected straight lines, with a bit of light coming through the crack. I was confused, but I sort of knew that I had succeeded in penetrating through to somewhere else. I was confused because I expected to see some kind of white light. There only remained this wide open space, and a kind of fracture in it where the breath focus had been. It looked like a crack in space was closing, and the lights were on the other side.

 

Now, I have been in that wide open space probably as many times as I have fingers and toes, but it was by restricting the breath, slowing the breath through pranayama. I had no idea that this space is waiting for you on the other side of sustained focus on the breath/nimitta.

 

I sat in this space for about five minutes, trying to perceive as much as I could. Although the monkey mind was silent, I still had some thoughts coming up, like "this is boring", "this is beautiful to look at", "not much to see", "did I wake up?", "I thought I was meditating", "where did all the thoughts, visions and light go?". The thoughts were few and far in between, but there were still thoughts.

 

It never occured to me to just stay there for a while. My timer went off and then I got up.

 

There was not much difference between the type of consciousness that I feel in normal life and the type of consciousness that I felt in that experience, just the scenery changed.

 

I wonder what that space is. Is it the fifth jhana, the Dimension of Infinite Space? Sort of sounds like it.

 

Continuation:

 

The late afternoon meditation was quite strange. When I sat down and started the meditation, the first thing I noticed was this vacuous space in the center of my attention, where the normal mind is usually located. Next, I noticed that there were very few thoughts. My awareness was so intense, it felt like I had drunk about 10 cups of coffee and was downright wired, but very clear.

 

I tried to focus on the breath, but I could not manifest any kind of cotton ball light from knowing the breath. I tried various locations, watching the breath at the navel, directly at the tip of the nose, but nothing would appear. I was back in the huge space. Next, I turned my attention to the third eye, that is, I focused on the place where the third eye usually is. I did see some light and some scenes, but they were so clear, bright and colorful that it kind of shocked me. I thought, "I don't need any more stimulation right now", and simply receeded back into the vacuous hole in my head. I remained there for about 50 minutes watching the luminosity, just 'being' and then got up and continued on with my day.

 

Later tonight, I finished the 30'th podcast of Alan Wallace's Dzogchen retreat. Coincidence or what? The last two questions from the retreatants were concerning the nimittas. According to Alan, and this is the first time I hear of this (and I've always wanted to know about it), the mental representation of the breath is called the nimitta. It is how the mind percieves the breath. I've read in other books that the air nimitta is white light. So this is making more sense to me all of the time.

The second light, (my little star) is called the counterpart sign. Alan described it exactly like I have described it above. It is a little bright light that appears as the mind becomes more stable. And, Alan says that once it appears you switch your attention to it and remain on that light until you achieve shamatha. Buhdagosa (sp?) said that. Other masters have said that. And that is exactly what I did.

 

The question I've always had is this: "is the cotton ball light (mental knowing of the breath) called the nimitta or is the star called the nimitta? The answer is, the mental knowing of the breath is called the nimitta (technically it is called the air nimitta) and the little star is called the counterpart sign. This was very important for me to know because I didn't quite know the difference and neither Shaila Catherine nor Ajahn Brahm explain the difference between the two, or if they did (which I doubt), it was just not that clear.

 

So, I do believe I have achieved shamatha!!!

 

The next goal is to remain in that state, on demand, for three hours, as recommended by Shaila Catherine. Then, I can proceed to practice more advanced techniques, with the power of a stable and pliant mind, realized though shamatha.

 

I am so thankful that Anamatva posted the link to Alan Wallace's Dzogchen 10-day retreat. I feel that had I not found that posting, I would not have realized shamatha. (and the 5'th jhana), and gained a better understanding of the whole process.

 

Thank you, thank you, thank you, Anamatva. Best Christmas Present ever!

 

http://thetaobums.co...b-alan-wallace/

 

 

 

TI

Edited December 25, 2012 by Tibetan_Ice

[konchog uma]

you are most welcome!

 

it sounds like you are getting somewhere with your practice.. i can't tell you if its the jhana of infinite space or if you are just pushing through the ordinary mind into the true nature of mind, which is vast! But i can definitely encourage you to keep practicing! (isn't that the obligatory comment that a lama would make if you told him/her all this?)

 

Your nimittas are different than mine. Mine show up after my mind is very calm and my breath is very slow, and are not present throughout my meditations.. as soon as they show up and i start gazing at the center of them, they start threatening to swallow me, which usually freaks me out, and they go away, the cycle repeats until i get sick of it and quit meditating. I have never allowed one to swallow me, i think i am grasping my own experience too tightly to let go and enter the state of absorption.

 

It is my understanding that to get to the 5th jhana that you would have to go through the first 4, and that to do that you would have to enter into the absorption state, unaware of sense input or the kind of things you are reporting in your post, so i think perhaps you are just experiencing the vast state of mind as it is, instead of the more confined state of mind as we usually find it, with thoughts, ideations, imaginings etc creating a layer or bubble that keeps us from being able to experience it as free and expansive. Just a thought, again, i dont profess to know.

 

I think you are on just the right track to try to stabilize your awareness by maintaining the focus for a long time.. 3 hours is awesome. I have never sat for 3 hours straight. 2 and change is my limit.. i hit a wall and have to get up. Anyway i think that maintaining shamatha is the way to go from where you are. Also, the mahamudra stages are probably good markers once you can remain in expansive awareness free of the distraction of thoughts. They are "one-pointedness", "simplicity", "one taste", and "non-meditation" and are found in most books and texts on mahamudra. Here is King of Samadhi by Khenchen Rinpoche to read to explain them better.

 

Gotta run now, stuff to do that won't wait. I'm glad to hear about your progress! May all beings benefit!

[Tibetan_Ice]

you are most welcome!

 

it sounds like you are getting somewhere with your practice.. i can't tell you if its the jhana of infinite space or if you are just pushing through the ordinary mind into the true nature of mind, which is vast! But i can definitely encourage you to keep practicing! (isn't that the obligatory comment that a lama would make if you told him/her all this?)

 

Your nimittas are different than mine. Mine show up after my mind is very calm and my breath is very slow, and are not present throughout my meditations.. as soon as they show up and i start gazing at the center of them, they start threatening to swallow me, which usually freaks me out, and they go away, the cycle repeats until i get sick of it and quit meditating. I have never allowed one to swallow me, i think i am grasping my own experience too tightly to let go and enter the state of absorption.

 

It is my understanding that to get to the 5th jhana that you would have to go through the first 4, and that to do that you would have to enter into the absorption state, unaware of sense input or the kind of things you are reporting in your post, so i think perhaps you are just experiencing the vast state of mind as it is, instead of the more confined state of mind as we usually find it, with thoughts, ideations, imaginings etc creating a layer or bubble that keeps us from being able to experience it as free and expansive. Just a thought, again, i dont profess to know.

 

I think you are on just the right track to try to stabilize your awareness by maintaining the focus for a long time.. 3 hours is awesome. I have never sat for 3 hours straight. 2 and change is my limit.. i hit a wall and have to get up. Anyway i think that maintaining shamatha is the way to go from where you are. Also, the mahamudra stages are probably good markers once you can remain in expansive awareness free of the distraction of thoughts. They are "one-pointedness", "simplicity", "one taste", and "non-meditation" and are found in most books and texts on mahamudra. Here is King of Samadhi by Khenchen Rinpoche to read to explain them better.

 

Gotta run now, stuff to do that won't wait. I'm glad to hear about your progress! May all beings benefit!

 

Hi Anamatva

Thank you for your comments.

 

According to Shaila Catherine (and Kenneth Folk), once you can get to a jhana, you can go directly to it any time, directly.

 

Ajahn Brahm, on the other hand, says that it is linear and you must go through the stages. So, I don't know. But I abandoned the bliss and joy stages a while back.. Although they are very nice and seductive, they are actually kind of coarse and breed attachment.. I'm not much of a hedonist.

 

I really have no idea where I was other than I went through the series of events successfully this time. Also, even it is a linear progression, there is no mention anywhere of how long you have to be in one jhana before progressing to the other. I think I've heard it mentioned that if you have enough intertia, you can sometimes zip right past the lower jhanas..

 

Also, when I hit that final stage, there were no senses, the body and the senses were long gone.. and I have read that the mind will keep producing thoughts and forms all the way up until the Cessation jhana.. so that follows..

 

Thank you for the link. I've added that book to my Amazon Cart. Looks like a good one..

 

Unfortunately, I don't have a Lama to tell all of this to. I do wonder what one would say..

 

TI

[konchog uma]

Hi Anamatva

Thank you for your comments.

 

According to Shaila Catherine (and Kenneth Folk), once you can get to a jhana, you can go directly to it any time, directly.

 

you're welcome. thats interesting about the jhanas, i wonder why Ajahn Brahm experiences it the way he does...

 

Also, when I hit that final stage, there were no senses, the body and the senses were long gone.. and I have read that the mind will keep producing thoughts and forms all the way up until the Cessation jhana.. so that follows..

 

Thank you for the link. I've added that book to my Amazon Cart. Looks like a good one..

 

Unfortunately, I don't have a Lama to tell all of this to. I do wonder what one would say..

 

TI

 

that does make sense.

 

you're welcome for the link.

 

yeah i wonder what a lama would say about all that too.. youve gone really far for someone with no teacher

[RongzomFan]

youve gone really far for someone with no teacher

 

These are just mundane meditative altered states that all regular meditators experience.

[GrandmasterP]

Keep at it buddy.

Regular cultivation beats intermittent every time,

Good Luck as you progress.

[joeblast]

According to Shaila Catherine (and Kenneth Folk), once you can get to a jhana, you can go directly to it any time, directly.

 

Ajahn Brahm, on the other hand, says that it is linear and you must go through the stages.

Both are correct, if that makes sense

[adept]

These are just mundane meditative altered states that all regular some meditators experience.

 

Fixed for you.

Edited December 27, 2012 by adept

[konchog uma]

These are just mundane meditative altered states that all regular meditators experience.

 

at least he has civility lol

 

know a tree by its fruit...

Edited December 28, 2012 by anamatva

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hi Alwayson

Thank you for dropping by to throw another brick..

Yes, mundane, isn't it?

So tell me, what is different from my little star and the star you declared as the pinnacle of Buddhist and Hindu Yoga?

And do you still think that the AYP star, the one that they ignore, is the same star as in Thogal?

 

http://www.aypsite.org/forum/pop_printer_friendly.asp?TOPIC_ID=4541

 

Reply author: alwayson

Replied on: Dec 03 2008 5:40:14 PM

Message:

Anyway there does seem to be a relationship between AYP's "the spirtual star" and thogal (which only becomes evident if you read about the crystal light channels in the book I posted).

...

Reply author: alwayson

Replied on: Dec 05 2008 1:52:08 PM

Message:

Elaborating on my last comment, Thogal has to do with certain crystal light channels such as the infamous "kati" channel. This kati channel is the basis for the rainbows being seen.

 

It seems very clear to me the spirtual star of Hindu yoga is the same "crystal" channel.

 

The similarities continue. Both thogal and the star both may require pressure on the eyes and breath retention to get going.

 

Both thogal and the star are pinnacles of Buddist and Hindu yogas respectively.

 

TI

 

P.S. Found an interesting link and thought I'd read it.. No time right now, but this is the link:

http://www.theopendoorway.org/thodgal.html

[RongzomFan]

I would get transmission for karmamudra.

 

From the Vajrayana point of view, meditation is contrived and conceptual.

Edited December 28, 2012 by alwayson

[konchog uma]

can you cite a source for that statement? (that the vajrayana view sees meditation as contrived and conceptual)

 

all the vajrayana practitioners i know meditate, and all the teachers teach meditation, so im curious why you say that.

[RongzomFan]

can you cite a source for that statement? (that the vajrayana view sees meditation as contrived and conceptual)

 

all the vajrayana practitioners i know meditate, and all the teachers teach meditation, so im curious why you say that.

 

I'm going by posts of Malcolm on Dharma Wheel.

[Tibetan_Ice]

I would get transmission for karmamudra.

 

From the Vajrayana point of view, meditation is contrived and conceptual.

 

Alwayson,

I'm getting tired of your incomplete blanket statements that explain nothing.

 

This is what is said about your miniscule sentence:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma_Kagyu

Teachings

The Karma Kagyu school belongs to the Vajrayana branch of Mahayana Buddhism. It is a Triyana (all three turnings of the Wheel of the dharma) school (e.g., monks and nuns keep the vows of Vinaya while lay practitioners hold the Upasaka vows) and a Rime (non-sectarian) tradition.

The central teaching of the Karma Kagyu is the doctrine of Mahamudra, also known as the "Great Seal". This doctrine focuses on four principal stages of meditative practice (the Four Yogas of Mahamudra):

• The development of single-pointedness of mind,
  
• The transcendence of all conceptual elaboration,
  
• The cultivation of the perspective that all phenomena are of a "single taste",
  
• The fruition of the path, which is beyond any contrived acts of meditation.
  

It is through these four stages of development that the practitioner is said to attain the perfect realization of Mahamudra. Mahamudra is practiced both independently and as the completion stage of Vajrayana practice.

Within the Karma Kagyu, meditative practice is almost invariably presented in a progressive manner. Early practice includes Shamatha meditation (calm abiding; single-pointedness), introduction to Buddhist history and philosophy, and initiation into the lower Tantras - classically across the Yidams (deities) Avalokiteshvara (Tibetan Chenrezik), Tara and Amitabha Buddha. This is followed by Ngondro (the practice of the Four Extraordinary Foundations) and Vipassana meditation. During the traditional three-year retreat, retreatants usually focus their practice on the Six Yogas of Naropa. At the Anuttarayogatantra level of practice, the principal Yidams of the lineage are Vajravarahi, Hevajra and Chakrasamvara.

 

So, although the "fruition of the path" is beyond any acts of contrived meditation, the early practices, such as shamatha and vispassana are called "Meditation".

 

You are just jerking everyone's chains again.

 

And, Malcom? He's the guy that thinks that nadis are parts of the physical body. I can see see why you like him. He usually says one or two very short comments, just like you, that don't explain much at all and leave the questioner to do their own research. That's fine if you like that style. I don't care for it at all. It's too arrogant and condescending.

 

TI

[konchog uma]

I'm going by posts of Malcolm on Dharma Wheel.

 

okay. i'm going by actual teachers, lamas, monks etc, and the fact that they teach shamatha, vipashyana, mahamudra, etc.

 

malcolm is a dzogchenpa and doesn't represent the vajrayana view as a whole.

[joeblast]

no such thing as spiritual welfare, you sit and do the work, or you dont make the progress. you cant get to a position of uncontrived meditation without first contriving such.

[RongzomFan]

Alwayson,

I'm getting tired of your incomplete blanket statements that explain nothing.

 

This is what is said about your miniscule sentence:

 

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Karma_Kagyu

 

You guys keep accusing me of incomplete statements, but I get tired of repeating the same things over and over again. And its karmamudra, not karma kagyu.

 

 

okay. i'm going by actual teachers, lamas, monks etc, and the fact that they teach shamatha, vipashyana, mahamudra, etc.

 

malcolm is a dzogchenpa and doesn't represent the vajrayana view as a whole.

 

Malcolm is a Sakya Loppon, not just a Dzogchenpa.

Edited December 28, 2012 by alwayson

[Creation]

malcolm is a dzogchenpa and doesn't represent the vajrayana view as a whole.

Actually, he is an ordained Acharya in the Sakya lineage, and has done separate three year retreats for Sakya and Nyingma practices [EDIT: it seems that he has only done one three year retreat]. He is one of the most qualified representatives of both Sarma Vajrayana and Dzogchen who posts on internet. Not that his word should be taken as absolute authority or anything like that of course. And the more relevant issue is, is alwayson qualified to understand him?

Edited December 28, 2012 by Creation

[konchog uma]

Malcolm is a Sakya Loppon, not just a Dzogchenpa.

 

doesn't change the fact that meditation is part of the general vajrayana view and practice.

[konchog uma]

Actually, he is an ordained Acharya in the Sakya lineage, and has done separate three year retreats for Sakya and Nyingma practices. He is one of the most qualified representatives of both Sarma Vajrayana and Dzogchen who posts on internet. Not that his word should be taken as absolute authority or anything like that of course. And the more relevant issue is, is alwayson qualified to understand him?

 

thanks for clearing that up

[RongzomFan]

doesn't change the fact that meditation is part of the general vajrayana view and practice.

 

Who says thats a fact?

 

Thats not my understanding at all.

[konchog uma]

lol

[konchog uma]

when the nyingma and kagyu lineages are referred to as "practice" lineages, what do you think they are practicing? its not cross stitch, its meditation.

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hi Alwayson

My response was in reference to your statement that "From the Vajrayana point of view, meditation is contrived and conceptual."

You must have missed that. Don't we all know that the highest form of meditation is called non-meditation? And that the prelimiary practices are called "meditation"? Dzogchen is realizing the view, then staying in the view. But if you haven't cleared away the five obscurations, good luck with that.

The main point is that in Vajrayana, they do call it "meditation" in the preliminary practices.

 

I would get transmission for karmamudra.

 

 

You guys keep accusing me of incomplete statements, but I get tired of repeating the same things over and over again. And its karmamudra, not karma kagyu.

 

 

 

Now you're talking about karmamudra? Ok. Let's talk about karmamudra.

You are saying that "it is karmamudra", not Karma Kagyu.

Let's take a look.

 

link: http://www.khandro.n...gyu_schools.htm

 

The four Kagyu transmissions referred to here are those of:

 

.. great seal - (Tib. phyag.rgya.cken.po Skt. mahamudra) in this instance 'uncharacterised mahamudra', i.e. without ritual, form or sophistry,

.. heat yoga -(Tib. gtum.mo, which literally means 'angry mother'),

.. lucidity - (Tib. od.gsal means ' as clear as if illuminated'--sometimes called 'clear light' in modern translations) this includes dream and between-life (bardo) yogas

.. union - (Tib. Ias.kyi.phyag.rgya Skt. karma mudra)

 

So, it looks to me like karma mudra is found in the Kagyu lineage.

What exactly are you saying? Wait, I have no desire to know.

If karmamudra is found in the Karma Kagyu, what is the difference? The practice must be similiar or not between most lineages. However, it is still the same word: karmamudra. Now, I'm not really interested in the differences between the meaning of the word in the different lineages. If you thought that was important, then you should have elaborated. But, evidently, by your post, you didn't seem to think that was important at the time.

 

But wait, you did talk to someone about that at the Dharma Wheel, didn't you? And Tsongkhapa too! I guess that was before you decided to respect the Dalai Lama's wished and shun Tsongkhapa..

 

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=77&t=4588

 

 

 

 

Re: paramhansa yogananda

 

by alwayson » Sun Oct 02, 2011 6:45 pm

 

 

Jikan wrote:who says that sex-practice is necessary to awakening?

 

Tsongkhapa

 

if you want to awaken while alive.

 

 

And then further down in that thread it says:

 

The Dalai Lama also said that many within Buddhist schools believe that the Shakyamuni became enlightenment with a consort under the Bodhi Tree and that his was edited out in many iconographies and written accounts.

 

It is generally understood in the tantric tradition, that it is not possible to bring all five winds into the central channel at the same time unless one performs karmamudra. The yogi will do the practice at an advanced stage. Milarepa did karmamudra with dakinis. The source for the oral instructions on the completion stage of the Kalachakra Tantra by Geshe Ngawang Dhargyey of the Gelugpa. I've also heard this from the Drikung Kagyu lamas. In some lineages an advanced yogi who is a monk will take a consort and it is not seen as violating vows, because this is what the Buddha said to do as part of the tantric method.

 

In Dzogchen and essence mahamudra, karmamudra is not important, and works with different channels.

 

 

So, if karmamudra is not important in Dzogchen and essence mahamudra, why do you recommend it to me? Are you giving me bad advice (not that I would now believe anything you say)?

 

Once again, although it was interesting to do some research, I have found that not only have you wasted my time but now you are appearing as insincere.

 

All and all it's just another brick in the wall.

 

TI

Edited December 28, 2012 by Tibetan_Ice

[Tibetan_Ice]

Actually, he is an ordained Acharya in the Sakya lineage, and has done separate three year retreats for Sakya and Nyingma practices. He is one of the most qualified representatives of both Sarma Vajrayana and Dzogchen who posts on internet. Not that his word should be taken as absolute authority or anything like that of course. And the more relevant issue is, is alwayson qualified to understand him?

 

Hi Creation

Thanks for that. I did some research on Malcolm.

 

http://www.kripalu.org/presenter/V0006111/malcolm_smith

 

http://tsegyalgar.org/localcenters/tsegyalgareast/tsegyalgareastcale/birthlifeanddeathw/

 

This last link is pretty good. Seems like a fairly intelligent individual..

 

http://www.tricycle.com/p/1977

 

In it, he says things like this:

 

"If—as is believed in the meditative traditions of his subjects—the mind is separate from the brain, how do these monks understand the value of the studies’ results?"

The Vajrayana, particularly the Dzogchen tradition of Nyingma and the Lamdre Tradition of Sakya, do not not assert that mind and body are substantially different entities. According to Sachen Kunga Nyingpo, the body and mind are related like a flower and its scent.

The Dzogchen tradition asserts in the Khandro Nyinthig:

"... the energy of that vivid luminosity arising as the diversity, that is called 'vāyu'”, and it is called 'mind'."

Here, vāyu refers to the five vāyus shared in common with Ayurveda and Yoga i.e. pranā, udanā, apanā, vyanā and samanā vāyus, which are responsible for all physical functions. There are a further five vāyus, the nāgā vāyu and so on that are responsible for the proper functioning of sense organs and play a role in their development.

In particular, in the Guhyasamaja tradition, the ālayavijñāna and regarded as inseparable with the mahāpranāvāyu which forms the basis for the arising of the other five vāyus.

This vāyu is the support, if you will, of the ālayavijñāna and is regarded as the basis for relative rebirth.

So it is an innocent error to proclaim that our meditation understand the body and mind to be different, when in fact, our traditions regards nāma and rūpa to be inseparable.

In point of fact, it is one of the criticisms that Vajrayāna tenets in general make of other Buddhist traditions i.e. that these other traditions neglect methods predicated upon the physical anatomy of the person, and focus solely on the mind.

The Vajrayāna in general argues that because the mind and body are inseparable, because the mind is in fact embodied, that very embodiment demands knowledge of such things as cakras, ṇāḍīs, vāyus, and so on. Indeed, this is the very basis of the incorporation of Yogic practices like gtum mo (caṇḍalī), yantra yoga, and so on into Buddhist practice by tantric yogins beginning in the 7-8th century C.E. From our perspective, the modern day Yoga/Vipassana synthesis (while definitely sound, and wonderful) is very immature compared to 1300+ year tradition of Buddhist yoga found in Vajrayāna.

Thus, the Vajrayāna traditions of Tibet, along with Tibetan Ayurvedic Medicine, possess a very sophisticated understanding of the inter-relationship of mind and body -- we even understood that all sense organs are connected to the brain and explicitly teach this as such.

The point here is not to be triumphalist about Vajrayāna, but rather to point out that we have a rich tradition which discusses all of these issues in detail and, being free from the tradition of mind/body dualism so trenchant in pre-modern Western thought, anticipates the ability of scientists to empirically quantify some of our traditions basic tenets.

 

 

 

TI