Middle DanTien: solar plexus/heart?

[Seth Ananda]

Hi bums!

I thought i should start this thread as its a confusing topic.

 

Why do some texts/teachers put the MDT in the heart while others put it in the solar plexus?

 

 

My own attempts at deciphering this have failed, including just following my own experience.

 

When I cook chi in LDT there comes a point where an abundance of chi rises to my solar plexus, yet other energy movements will stimulate and open the heart, and the heart has that 'middle' kind of feeling to it, at least for me...

 

Are these locations related in some way, Is one just wrong, or is one used for certain things while the other for other stuff?

 

Please illuminate!

[Flolfolil]

i wonder this myself

[GrandmasterP]

Clench your right fist and cock your thumb.

Hold your fist to your breast bone so that your cocked thumb joint is level with your nipple line.

Now twist your fist down and to the left as far as your wrist will allow and look down to appreciate the thickness of your wrist against your chest.

Thus far inside, the exact thickness you perceive and exactly the size of your clenched right fist (you being healthy) lies your living, beating heart. Two thirds to the left and one third to the right of the centre line of your body.

The central thrusting channel runs from LDT through the MDT where your heart is to the UDT or third eye in the centre of your brain above and behind your sinuses.

HTH

Edited December 21, 2012 by GrandmasterP

[Benji]

I think it is important to distinguish between a Jiao and a Dan Tian.

 

A Jiao, aka "pot" or "burner" is a term used to denote different sections of the body. This is related to the chinese medical concept of the San Jaio, or tripple burner. Some models of the tripple burner place the middle burner at the solar plexus and the upper burner at the heart, while others place the middle burner at heart and the upper burner in the head. From my expereince a more medical perspective sees the middle burner in the solar plexus, while a more spiritual perspective sees the middle burner at the heart.

 

A Dan Tian is an "elixir field" where alchemical reactions occur. I am pretty sure the middle Dan Tian is in the heart. That is not to say the solar plexus is unimportant.

 

When you are taking about spiritual advancement in the chinese sense you are talking about the conversion of Jing to Qi To Shen. Jing converts to Qi in the solar plexus and Qi becomes Shen at the heart. That as far as it goes from a medical perspective (which is just trying to make you a happy healthy human being). Spiritual pratitioners will continue to elevate the Shen further and further up the ladder to the upper Dan Tian and beyond.

 

The solar plexus is a sticking point where Qi often gets stuck in its ascention. I have heard my teacher refer to this place as the Gao Huang or "cavern under the heart," and this it is an important area to clear.

 

Part of our confusion is that chinese thought, unlike western thought, can see two seemingly opposing things as both being true.

[GrandmasterP]

There are words and then there is anatomy.

 

[Aetherous]

IMO, LDT is more related to the solar plexus. You can tell this is the case when the LDT energy is circulating and rises to the solar plexus through the front channel. Look into the yellow court/gold pavilion/huang ting for an understanding of what the LDT is.

 

MDT is an area above the solar plexus but not the heart itself.

[GrandmasterP]

When Qi moves up and down Central Thrusting Channel it's the three foci you sense it most in.

LDT is a breeze, everyone can feel that one.

The other two take a bit of work and the top one especially.

I blame all this crown chakra and 'mind' nonsense that gets talked about.

UDT is a physiological site doing a physiological job that, depending on how one cultivates; may or may not have spiritual implications and/or benefits.

[Jetsun]

In Fourth Way understanding the solar plexus is the area with greatest concentration of nerve nodes so therefore it is known as the seat of the emotional centre, which is one of the three bodies in man, so it can be explained physiologically why that area is considered an important centre. Whether the map of the three bodies in the Fourth Way match the map of the Dan Tiens is debatable, but I think they do.

 

Gurdjieff would say in a real man ie a man who has worked on himself properly when he says "I" it will vibrate in the solar plexus, whereas with most people who have no real self development it will vibrate elsewhere, often in the head.

Edited December 21, 2012 by Jetsun

[Seth Ananda]

I have no problem feeling any of these centres, but which one is the real MDT.

 

If I remember rightly Luks 'Taoist Yoga' puts it at the solar plexus, as do many older texts.

Is the Heart position in older texts as well, or is it a 'newer' location?

 

And GMP, even at the heart it is not located within the physical heart, but in the location/nerve plexux that we feel love, in the center of the chest...

[GrandmasterP]

 

William Shakespeare

"Tell Me Where Is Fancy Bred"

 

Tell me where is fancy bred,

Or in the heart or in the head?

How begot, how nourished?

Reply, reply.

It is engender’d in the eyes,

With gazing fed; and fancy dies

In the cradle, where it lies.

Let us all ring fancy’s knell;

I’ll begin it – Ding, dong, bell.

 

Ding, dong, bell

(From "The Merchant of Venice")

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Seth Ananda]

 

MDT is an area above the solar plexus but not the heart itself.

In some texts yes, but in many others it is the solar plexux...

 

it certainly feels to me that the solar plexus is a better place for storing energy than the heart, that can burn out with too much storage...

[Aetherous]

In some texts yes, but in many others it is the solar plexux...

 

Just my opinion...they are wrong.

 

edit: To clarify my opinion...any sources that are posted which say the solar plexus is the middle dantien...any...I think they're wrong and have spread misinformation.

 

I was looking for sources to show my opinion today...no luck. But they exist - I've seen them. And they're correct (IMO).

 

Not like it really matters, unless you're inventing your own practices based off of public knowledge of Taoism, or something.

Edited December 22, 2012 by turtle shell

[Seth Ananda]

I think it is important to distinguish between a Jiao and a Dan Tian.

 

A Jiao, aka "pot" or "burner" is a term used to denote different sections of the body. This is related to the chinese medical concept of the San Jaio, or tripple burner. Some models of the tripple burner place the middle burner at the solar plexus and the upper burner at the heart, while others place the middle burner at heart and the upper burner in the head. From my expereince a more medical perspective sees the middle burner in the solar plexus, while a more spiritual perspective sees the middle burner at the heart.

 

A Dan Tian is an "elixir field" where alchemical reactions occur. I am pretty sure the middle Dan Tian is in the heart. That is not to say the solar plexus is unimportant.

 

When you are taking about spiritual advancement in the chinese sense you are talking about the conversion of Jing to Qi To Shen. Jing converts to Qi in the solar plexus and Qi becomes Shen at the heart. That as far as it goes from a medical perspective (which is just trying to make you a happy healthy human being). Spiritual pratitioners will continue to elevate the Shen further and further up the ladder to the upper Dan Tian and beyond.

 

The solar plexus is a sticking point where Qi often gets stuck in its ascention. I have heard my teacher refer to this place as the Gao Huang or "cavern under the heart," and this it is an important area to clear.

 

Part of our confusion is that chinese thought, unlike western thought, can see two seemingly opposing things as both being true.

Thanks, Interesting...

I thought the jing to chi process was LDT... And as for clearing the solar plexus. how does your teacher mean this? Is it to do with clearing stagnant emotions?

[Zhongyongdaoist]

I posted the following on the subject of the Middle Dantian in a thread on the “Huang ting wei ching”.

 

The following is from Chinese Medical Qigong Therapy, Volume 1, by Professor Jerry Alan Johnson, The Internal Institute of Medical Qigong, Pacific Grove CA, 2005

 

ANATOMICAL LOCATION OF THE MIDDLE DANTIAN p. 222-4

 

The MIDDLE Dantian, having four points, is shaped like a tetrahedron: the top points toward the Upper Dantian and the Heavens, the bottom points toward the Lower Dantian and the Earth, and the sides point toward the front and back. These areas are described as follows (Figure 5.27):

 

P. 222

 

1. The Yellow Court (Huangting): The front lower point of the MIDDLE Dantian is located at the Spirit Storehouse (Shenfu) CV-15 point on the midline of the abdomen, just below the xiphoid bone on the sternum. This point is now commonly called the Turtledove Tail in modern Chinese acupuncture texts. This area is where the Postnatal Qi flows downwards through the Stomach Channels, and the Prenatal Qi flows upwards through the Kidney Channels. They converge with the Thrusting Vessel in order to balance the Fire and Water polarities of the Heart and Kidneys.

 

According to the Ling Shu (Magical Pivot), this area is the Yuan (source or original) point of all the Yin organs, affecting the Yuan Qi of all five Yin organs. The Yellow Court nourishes the Yin organs, regulates the Heart and calms the spirit (especially in cases of Yin Deficiency). The Yellow Court is the connecting point for the Conception Vessel; it is the Mu point of the sexual organs and is sometimes known as the front gate of the Third Chakra.

 

In ancient Daoist alchemy, this point was known as Shenfu, the Spirit Storehouse, and is the place where Qi transforms into Shen. Today this point is commonly called the "Yellow Court" (Huangting) because it reflects the emotions stored from the Heart. In ancient Chinese medicine, the Heart was often referred to as the "Yellow Emperor" or "Suspended Gold."

 

The responsibility of the Pericardium (known as the "Minister of Council", and the "Heart's Protector") was to store emotional experiences that the Heart was not yet ready to process into the emperor's courtyard. These emotions would stay outside the realm of the Heart within the courtyard (known as the "Yellow Court") until the Heart was ready to receive or face the information and experience (Figure 5.28).

 

P. 223

 

Historically, there has been much confusion and disagreement as to the actual location of the Yellow Court. This confusion stems from the understanding that the Yellow Court is also a generalized term referring to the energetic centers of Qi transformation (the Three Dantians). Some Daoist traditions maintain that the Yellow Court and MIDDLE Dantian are located in the same area, being both associated with the Heart. Other traditions assign the Yellow Court to the energetic functions of the Spleen.

 

In ancient China, the transformation of Qi into Shen occurring in the Yellow Court was considered the pivotal stage in energetic alchemy. The Yellow Court was the location where the emergence of the spiritual embryo (Taixi) takes place. Therefore, the exact location of the Yellow Court was historically kept secret. Because of the overlap of energies existing between the Heart and Spleen, only a true Daoist initiate would be able to clearly differentiate the exact location of the Yellow Court.

 

Energetically, the Yellow Court is believed to be a microcosmic replica of the Dao of the universe, as Yin and Yang polarities continually emerge from and return to it. According to Chinese alchemy, reuniting the Kan (Yang: Fire) and Li (Yin: Water) of the five Yin organs at the Yellow Court reconnected the individual with the energies of the former (Prenatal) and later (Postnatal) Heavenly Realms. This energetic reversal enabled the individual's Shen to "come and go between the physical and spiritual realms" (Figure 5.29).

 

P. 224

(Emphasis mine, ZYD)

 

 

The above referenced work is a must for anyone interested in traditional Daoist esoteric anatomy. Through years of reading and study I managed to get large parts of the most important information scattered among a dozen books. This book is much more convenient and a real bargain in comparison to the amount of money I expended over that time.

 

As before I have bolded certain sections in the hope that I will be able to reference them in some future posts explicating this material.

 

The post and its subsequent discussion may be found here:

 

http://thetaobums.co...dantian__st__16

 

As is usual in such matters after a certain point I had to break off the discussion because of time constraints. If I have the time I may post more in this thread about some of the issues raised here. If not, I hope that the above is helpful.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Part of our confusion is that chinese thought, unlike western thought, can see two seemingly opposing things as both being true.

 

This sort of sums it up for me, though I'm going solely by personal impression/experience. Seems to me like the solar plexus connects the LDT to the MDT, but more likely is the lower regions of the MDT which includes both heart, the solar plexus, and maybe the thymus area above.

 

In Chi Gong, the dan tien can be expanded like a radiating energy body, so to try and pinpoint "this is where it is, meridian point such and such" is probably not so necessary. If I remember correctly (don't have it with me right now) in Michael Lomax's book, he mentions that his teacher says the lower dantien is "the entire space between the pubic area and the navel, within the body." This is somewhat different from the precision that many describe its location with, but given the expanding potential of the lower dantien, and Master Lomax's teachers' practical healing abilities, I see no reason to search further for an answer on that one.

 

I suspect that the middle dantien is also a larger area, likely including the adrenals, liver, spleen, heart, and thymus, ie. upper part of the triple burner, but again, that's just how it seems to me...

 

 

edit: ah, just saw ZYD's response.. probably wise to go with Jerry Allan Johnson's instructions.

Edited December 22, 2012 by Harmonious Emptiness

[GrandmasterP]

Very useful diagram.

[Ish]

I can feel it in the center of the chest more strongly than solar plexus. Though based on their physiological locations both have very big effects on the body.

 

There's definitely a pleasant fire in the core of the body at the middle of the nipple line.

It's different to the fire at the lower dan tian which feels more watery.

 

As you said Seth i wouldn't recommend storing at the MDT directly. It seems to grow stronger just working on LDT. However opening MDT with deep pure calmness and smiling from the heart is really good IMO.

Edited December 22, 2012 by Ish

[Ish]

If I remember correctly (don't have it with me right now) in Michael Lomax's book, he mentions that his teacher says the lower dantien is "the entire space between the pubic area and the navel, within the body."

 

 

Yeah this works for me, can feel much more gathering and storing when not trying to get to a more specific location.

When the whole area that you stated is embraced with awareness and relaxation it seems very effective.

[thelerner]

They areas seem quite different to me. I use the heart area for emotional intelligence I'll use it as a focus in metta and sound meditations. Personally I use focus on my solar plex to generate and collect heat. All in all I use the heart focus more then solar plex.

[dawei]

I think the actual 'locations' are best to be thought of as simply:

1. Head

2. Chest

3. Stomach

 

And to follow what Jerry Johnson is suggesting which is that the area is larger than we usually think of as it has a lot more function then we realize. So it is useful to get into the details and understand what goes on in these areas. I see it similar to talking about a car's engine... it is simply located 'under the hood' but one can talk about the carb, or exhaust, or transmission, etc... you can break them down and get more discrete locations but don't lose sight of the whole area.

 

The MDT stores and transforms energy. It is central to the emotions; the unprocessed emotions are lower (yellow court is like a lower court for the central controlling heart energy) and the processed emotions are higher in location (heart).

 

One will probably 'feel' energy more in their heart area as heart energy is the most powerful and it is centralized location of refined and processed emotions; But note proximity of lungs where sadness and grief are associated; also think how one gets a 'lump in their throat' from anxiety (spleen). Or one says their 'heart dropped into their stomach' from fright (liver).

 

The solar plexis is more the storage area but most are not accustomed to developing this energy center. Here is a practice I learned:

1. Lay down and breath normally through the LDT. Let the stomach rise and fall. Only the stomach should be moving.

2. Shift the breathing of air up to the lungs. Only the lungs should be moving.

3. Shift the breathing to the solar plexus. Only the solar plexus should be moving.

 

Someone trained in teaching this would be able to monitor how you do and assist in understanding how to isolate each area and then eventually how to move the energy from one breath/location to the next breath/location, and eventually to go between any two in succession. The most difficult part is the solar plexus breathing as one will often use their lungs or stomach to assist in it. This is a useful practice to help focus on the solar plexus and develop it.

[dawei]

In some texts yes, but in many others it is the solar plexux...

 

it certainly feels to me that the solar plexus is a better place for storing energy than the heart, that can burn out with too much storage...

As was mentioned concerning chinese thought where opposites can be true, I do think it applies here...

 

If one wants to emphasize the storage ability [energy center] then they may simply mention the solar plexus is the location; if one wants to emphasize the regulating ability [healing center] then the heart may be mentioned as the location. I would accept both as correct in the bigger scheme.

 

Interesting thread and many interesting posts. thanks for starting this.

[joeblast]

Hi bums!

I thought i should start this thread as its a confusing topic.

 

Why do some texts/teachers put the MDT in the heart while others put it in the solar plexus?

 

 

My own attempts at deciphering this have failed, including just following my own experience.

 

When I cook chi in LDT there comes a point where an abundance of chi rises to my solar plexus, yet other energy movements will stimulate and open the heart, and the heart has that 'middle' kind of feeling to it, at least for me...

 

Are these locations related in some way, Is one just wrong, or is one used for certain things while the other for other stuff?

 

Please illuminate!

I think its important to distinguish what practices and what context. Different tools have different uses in their own particular...idiom. To relate to my own practice, they're different energies and different structures and I sorta go by "middle dt=solar/celiac" and heart center is its own thing, because where I'm at I wouldnt use the solar plexus in the same manner or context as the heart and vice versa.

 

As such, "middle" is just a concept and certainly not something to get stuck on.

...

Some models of the tripple burner place the middle burner at the solar plexus and the upper burner at the heart, while others place the middle burner at heart and the upper burner in the head.

...

Spiritual pratitioners will continue to elevate the Shen further and further up the ladder to the upper Dan Tian and beyond.

...

Part of our confusion is that chinese thought, unlike western thought, can see two seemingly opposing things as both being true.

The nature and usage differs depending on what point in the training you're at

 

 

IMO, LDT is more related to the solar plexus. You can tell this is the case when the LDT energy is circulating and rises to the solar plexus through the front channel. Look into the yellow court/gold pavilion/huang ting for an understanding of what the LDT is.

 

MDT is an area above the solar plexus but not the heart itself.

Just my opinion...they are wrong.

 

edit: To clarify my opinion...any sources that are posted which say the solar plexus is the middle dantien...any...I think they're wrong and have spread misinformation.

 

Curious what sources, but given my view as per above, its context, context, context. I think that's going a little far to say something is misinformation, because it depends what we're talking about, especially in relation to how the burners/tripod/stage of practice is related. If we're talking about the 3dt mco for example, its clearly solar plexus as middle.

 

 

In Fourth Way understanding the solar plexus is the area with greatest concentration of nerve nodes so therefore it is known as the seat of the emotional centre, which is one of the three bodies in man, so it can be explained physiologically why that area is considered an important centre. Whether the map of the three bodies in the Fourth Way match the map of the Dan Tiens is debatable, but I think they do.

 

Gurdjieff would say in a real man ie a man who has worked on himself properly when he says "I" it will vibrate in the solar plexus, whereas with most people who have no real self development it will vibrate elsewhere, often in the head.

Yes, good.

The celiac plexus includes a number of smaller plexuses:

• Hepatic plexus
  
• Splenic plexus
  
• Gastric plexus
  
• Pancreatic plexus
  
• Suprarenal plexus
  

Other plexuses that are derived from the celiac plexus:

• Renal plexus
  
• Testicular plexus / ovarian plexus
  
• Superior mesenteric plexus
  
• Inferior mesenteric plexus
  

Although, "I" resonates at the heart for me.

 

 

I have no problem feeling any of these centres, but which one is the real MDT.

 

If I remember rightly Luks 'Taoist Yoga' puts it at the solar plexus, as do many older texts.

Is the Heart position in older texts as well, or is it a 'newer' location?

 

And GMP, even at the heart it is not located within the physical heart, but in the location/nerve plexux that we feel love, in the center of the chest...

Solar plexus first, heart later, at least in terms of alchemy.

 

[idquest]

Both heart and solar plexus areas could be dangerous to work with. While the heart area is obvious, the solar plexus may be felt as a lower esophagus sphincter or incipient gall bludder problems. The damaged LES is one of the most often occuring reasons causing heartburn, acid reflux.

I've known people whose choice to practice either with heart or solar plexus would depend on their physiological / medical condition. People who would have tendency for heart problems would focus on the solar plexus more; and those having LES/gall bludder problems would more readily work with the center of the chest.

The safer practices I know of include expanding those areas and not focusing on them as focusing would tend to congest energy/body fluids in the area. I'd only learn the technics from those who have practiced with these areas for at least 30 years and their age would be 65 YO or older.

[Birch]

No mention yet of '3rd chakra'?

 

[steve]

In my tradition, the middle dan tian does not correspond specifically to either heart or solar plexus but is associated with both. As mentioned above, the dan tians are more diffuse "fields" rather than discrete structures.