enough with emptiness and dreams. we need new models.

[hydrogen]

The science has advanced at astonishing speed. While the spiritual development has stuck in the past two thousand years. This is emptiness and that is emptiness are still dominate the discussion. Some simpletons still think I dreaming of being butterfly or butterfly dreaming of being me profound. Those old folks didn't know computer, electricity, TVs, movies, airplane and black holes. it's time to update the confusing old spiritual models.

 

I think the matrix or holodeck model is the most promising one. We live in a computer simulated world. We're bunch of AI (artificial intelligent) human don't even know we're not real human. The "God" was real human who created us.

 

Any programmers, computer engineers here?

Edited December 3, 2012 by hydrogen

[thelerner]

Do you base that concept on anything other then you liked the movies? Its always struck me as funny, people using the Matrix as a model since in the movie people were living in rags eating crappy food and were relatively powerless. To be in the Matrix was to live unaware or want to escape the real world which was admittedly grungy in Neo's time period. Crap I'm gettiing off course into movie mythos.

 

To me Tech is a distraction not a solution. I'm all for updating spiritual paradigms but not by substituting pop science fiction trilogies. Interestingly enough, Hydrogen is describing a movie I saw last week on Netflix called Cafe, it revolves around the characters in a coffee shop, God walks in and tells the geek programmer he and the world are an AI project. It's very good, you should watch it, but its a movie.

 

Regardless of ones basic paradigm there may be cracks in realities mirror. Dream work- lucid dreaming and hard science if possible in astral travel. The third eye runs across many cultures. I'd love to see serious work that scrapped the dogma and got serious data on what can be seen. In both cases serious long term training programs.

[SeriesOfTubes]

I'm so busy these day I regretfully can never quite engage these sorts of discussions properly but this is what this thread made me think of..

 

 

 

 

 

 

Processes that are highly "sensitive to initial conditions": trance, meditation sessions, conversations or any interaction for that matter, ceremony, entheogenic experiences (why else the emphasis on "set and setting").

[Simple_Jack]

The science has advanced at astonishing speed. While the spiritual development has stuck in the past two thousand years. This is emptiness and that is emptiness are still dominate the discussion. Some simpletons still think I dreaming of being butterfly or butterfly dreaming of being me profound.

You might want to check this out:

 

Mutual Causality in Buddhism And General Systems Theory: The Dharma Of Natural Systems by Joanna Macy

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=APvFjc1VmW4C&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

 

Those old folks didn't know computer, electricity, TVs, movies, airplane and black holes. it's time to update the confusing old spiritual models.

I don't know if you're aware of this but, Hinduism and Buddhism acknowledged an oscillating universe and atoms, so......

[idiot_stimpy]

Emptiness is not a blind belief.

 

If you even get a glimpse of it, it will rock your whole mental structure.

 

That which is seen before belief. Deconstruct, deconstruct, deconstruct.

[idiot_stimpy]

"During the empty enchantment of dream

ignorant babes are entranced,

while the wise, disillusioned, are undeceived;

those unaware of the truth of absence,

clinging to their identity, wander in circles,

while the wise yogin, fully present,

aware of the zing of reality

convinced of the absence of that very moment,

is liberated in the non-contingent reality-matrix."

 

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

The science has advanced at astonishing speed. While the spiritual development has stuck in the past two thousand years. This is emptiness and that is emptiness are still dominate the discussion. Some simpletons still think I dreaming of being butterfly or butterfly dreaming of being me profound. Those old folks didn't know computer, electricity, TVs, movies, airplane and black holes. it's time to update the confusing old spiritual models.

 

I think the matrix or holodeck model is the most promising one. We live in a computer simulated world. We're bunch of AI (artificial intelligent) human don't even know we're not real human. The "God" was real human who cteated us.

 

Any programmers, computer engineers here?

Why not leapfrog right past science and go straight into the meat and bones of infinity? Every moment, consisting of infinite moments, every material object composed of infinite material building blocks, every sound, an infinite reverberation across an infinite span of time and space. An infinite number of categories, each category possessing an infinite omnitude of categories and sub categories, and at this point, words are meaningless. I hope you get what I am saying; why worry about what we have? Why not be grateful for it instead?

[Ish]

The science has advanced at astonishing speed. While the spiritual development has stuck in the past two thousand years. This is emptiness and that is emptiness are still dominate the discussion. Some simpletons still think I dreaming of being butterfly or butterfly dreaming of being me profound. Those old folks didn't know computer, electricity, TVs, movies, airplane and black holes. it's time to update the confusing old spiritual models.

 

I think the matrix or holodeck model is the most promising one. We live in a computer simulated world. We're bunch of AI (artificial intelligent) human don't even know we're not real human. The "God" was real human who cteated us.

 

Any programmers, computer engineers here?

 

You're assuming emptiness and all that are just theories, its not. It's direct experience, not an invention or guesswork.

 

Your other theories however are just guesswork, please tell me any actual evidence to back it up then it may be more believable.

[Eskrimador]

Do you base that concept on anything other then you liked the movies? Its always struck me as funny, people using the Matrix as a model since in the movie people were living in rags eating crappy food and were relatively powerless. To be in the Matrix was to live unaware or want to escape the real world which was admittedly grungy in Neo's time period. Crap I'm gettiing off course into movie mythos.

 

To me Tech is a distraction not a solution. I'm all for updating spiritual paradigms but not by substituting pop science fiction trilogies. Interestingly enough, Hydrogen is describing a movie I saw last week on Netflix called Cafe, it revolves around the characters in a coffee shop, God walks in and tells the geek programmer he and the world are an AI project. It's very good, you should watch it, but its a movie.

 

Regardless of ones basic paradigm there may be cracks in realities mirror. Dream work- lucid dreaming and hard science if possible in astral travel. The third eye runs across many cultures. I'd love to see serious work that scrapped the dogma and got serious data on what can be seen. In both cases serious long term training programs.

 

Same here some places in Filipines people eat crappy food or no food got some rags for clothes and no powwer.

City OK but some places very poor. You like movies come here it Mad Max.

[Marblehead]

This is emptiness and that is emptiness are still dominate the discussion.

Not in any of my discussions. I speak of fullness and reality.

[Thunder_Gooch]

The science has advanced at astonishing speed. While the spiritual development has stuck in the past two thousand years. This is emptiness and that is emptiness are still dominate the discussion. Some simpletons still think I dreaming of being butterfly or butterfly dreaming of being me profound. Those old folks didn't know computer, electricity, TVs, movies, airplane and black holes. it's time to update the confusing old spiritual models.

 

I think the matrix or holodeck model is the most promising one. We live in a computer simulated world. We're bunch of AI (artificial intelligent) human don't even know we're not real human. The "God" was real human who cteated us.

 

Any programmers, computer engineers here?

 

I believe this is probably correct, this reality is indeed a simulation of some sort.

 

I don't feel as though the purpose of this simulation is for our benefit in any way, we are like straw dogs to whomever or whatever is running the simulation.

Edited December 3, 2012 by More_Pie_Guy

[suninmyeyes]

Hydrogen said: ..Some simpletons still think I dreaming of being butterfly or butterfly dreaming of being me profound...

 

I guess I am a simpelton than. This still sounds beutiful!

Dont think we need new models , but updated approach as the life field is mapped differently now than it was centuries ago.

Taking in consideration that the mind is working differently now than in past and with that strenghts and weaknesses are in different fields of life. Our ideals is money these days, and our gods (or we make ourselves into the image of ) are pop stars and actors.

Edited December 3, 2012 by suninmyeyes

[Birch]

Thing about computer model is it posits a creator. Which I'm not up for. Creator = separation. Plus all that god stuff which direct experience usually shoots to rot. Possible I've been doing it wrong, but emptiness isn't at all barren and it's not somewhere else. Nor a closed system :-)

 

 

[hydrogen]

You're assuming emptiness and all that are just theories, its not. It's direct experience, not an invention or guesswork.

 

Your other theories however are just guesswork, please tell me any actual evidence to back it up then it may be more believable.

 

Please tell me any actual evidence to back "your emptiness" up?

 

I'm not here to dispute the correctness of "emptiness". I just think the "emptiness" talk is too empty and meaningless for most people who have experiecned "emptiness" or not. The empty model is too empty. We need a "solid" model that the practitioners can build and improve from one generation to next generation.

 

How about the world is a holodeck. Our body is a holodeck. Our senses are build by a bunch of sensors to process informations received.

 

If we treat the "emptiness" as science. We should apply scientific approach. First we need build a model, which initially may look crude and inaccurate representation of the "real" world. But it's "solid" and "visible". it can be looked at, discussed among different people with different "emptiness" experiences. Each person can add their contribution to the model. The model will be improved. And eventuallly it looks more and more like a good presentation of the "real" world.

 

Energy model is another promising one. I still have the suspension we're bunch of energy generators. The total output of the energy must greater or equal to the input energy. Otherwise, the "God" will terminate the simulation. Or the simulation will try to balance the energy until it can sustain. If not, then the whole "world" collapse. The "God" won't contribute any energy to this simulation world except the initial "push"/"big bang".

 

To human is to engineer. We're just reverse engineer the world/our body.

 

As a race, we have to going forward. Which way is forward and which way is backward? I don't believe magic or supernatrual power. I think "God' created us with far more advanced technology. My proposed "computer simulation" is a just model. The "God" may have used something we haven't discovered yet.

 

I'm sure the old guard of the "emptiness" model will sure feel threatened by any new models. It's understandable. I just hope to attract some new generation of meditators who's familiar with video games and computer simulation to think about this. Of course, I also believe some old meditators have valuable experience to share if they're open to new ideas.

Edited December 3, 2012 by hydrogen

[三江源]

.

Edited October 27, 2015 by 三江源

[theurgy]

My proposed "computer simulation" is a just model. The "God" may have used something we haven't discovered yet.

 

The obscure philosopher Lemuel Johnstone already proposed this notion over one hundred years ago. Here is his now infamous paradox:

 

1) If reality is ultimately materialistic and rational, then it could be described in a finite set of instructions and modelled as information.

2) If it could be modelled in this way, then it will be — at the very least because, given limitless time, all possible permutations of a finite universe should occur.

3) For every one original reality there will be many such sub-models, and they too will generate many sub-sub-models.

4) The nature of complex systems means that it is almost impossible for any reality to reproduce itself exactly, indeed there is greater likelihood that the submodels will be mutations of the original, subject to different structures and laws.

5) Because the models severely outnumber the original reality, or realities, it is therefore more likely that we are living in a universe modelled as information, and it is most likely that it is not identical to the original reality.

6) Thus Johnstone’s Paradox: if reality is ultimately materialistic and rational, then it is highly unlikely we are living in a materialistic, rational universe.

[exorcist_1699]

Reluctant to add my comments after having seen many ideas already posted above, however, it is such a common bias among the young /technical people that it seems worthy of adding mine.

 

As many members on this forum already notice that the issue of emptiness is linked to many basic problems raised by Modern Physics, and have gone deep into finding those 'technical' ways of exploring it , some people still stick to their simple thinking that 'emptiness' is just an ancient , useless Oriental philosophical topic , not fashionable enough to meet their taste , this really startles me.

Edited December 3, 2012 by exorcist_1699

[Eskrimador]

Theres nothing in this emptiness talk

[SeriesOfTubes]

The computer simulation idea is being taken seriously..

 

http://www.huffingto..._n_1957777.html

 

and a possibility separately arrived it by superstring theorists:

 

[Marblehead]

Theres nothing in this emptiness talk

Hehehe. It's rather empty, isn't it?

[hydrogen]

Hydrogen, why would God cheat us? Is it something to do with the Holy Spirit?

 

We are each animated by the holy spirit, is the vital wind that moves us, when it leaves, our bodies turn to dust.. yet our perception is programmed to be so limited..

 

What kind of strategy is "cheating"? How would we be if we were 'real humans'?

 

It was a typo made by my subconscious. "cheat" was too strong a word. I do think God withdrawl informations from us. Probably we simply can't handle the "truth".

 

For whatever reason that God made me. I'm grateful. I do belive it was out of love. I just happy to do something in return.

 

The God even "buried" all those fossils for us to find. They gave us clues about the origin of God. Since we're "children" of God. Their origin is our origin.

 

I haven't found other first prson discription of "holy spirit". I suspect the "image" would be different from person to person. They're still the projection of our mind, a product of our culture, education, upbrining and belief. I suspect the "emptiness" is also customerized. There might be as many flavor of "emptiness" as the population on earth. Of course, there some similar theme, like feeling of oness, universial love and bliss.

 

However, I also experienced deep despair and uttermost loneliness. It was so dark and I was so alone.

 

Anyway, how many contemparies can walk on water, perfrom twin miracles? Apparantly, the art of "emptiness" is lost. All the discussion of "emptiness" is just empty.

[三江源]

.

Edited October 27, 2015 by 三江源

[zerostao]

the holodek model is at least 40 years old already. we were reduced to mere magnetic ink in the early sixties.

for me , not so useful.

whatever age folks have lived in is the analogy they have used while looking for a useful model.

i am machine, the clock analogy, there was the age of enlightenment ! i wouldnt rule out the possibility of misnomer there.

we are in the so called information age now and currently information is the model used.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Information-Nature-Reality-Physics-Metaphysics/dp/0521762251

 

maybe a new age and model will show up on the horizon (in 18 days) but not sure if i would count on that

[zanshin]

We don't understand conciousness or how life originated, scientifically there's really nothing there.

[Jetsun]

"There are two lines along which man's

development proceeds, the line

of knowledge and the line of being.

In right evolution the line of knowledge

and the line of being develop simultaneously,

parallel to, and helping one another. But if

the line of knowledge gets too far ahead of

the line of being, or if the line of being

gets ahead of the line of knowledge, man's

development goes wrong, and sooner or

later it must come to a standstill."

 

"If knowledge gets far ahead

of being, it becomes theoretical

and abstract and inapplicable to

life, or actually harmful, because

instead of serving life and helping

people the better to struggle with

the difficulties they meet, it

begins to complicate man's life,

brings new difficulties into it,

new troubles and calamities which

were not there before.

Such preponderance of knowledge

over being is observed in present-

day culture. The idea of the value

and importance of the level of

being is completely forgotten."

- G. Gurdjieff