Religion

[Marius Tudor]

Hello everyone

 

Yesterday I wanted to post something in thetaobums forum in order to get some insights about certain topics but I realised that merging so many topics would be catastrophic.Therefore I've put my thinking cap on and after a while I decided that I should begin with the basics, and after I get enlightened on the topic and my attention span is still big enough I would go further into topics such as breathing, meditation, tao,sexuality,health and the list goes on.

 

The subject which I intend to talk today about is a succinct comparison between major religions of the worlds and which one reflects the truth.Therefore I will begin by summarizing according to my knowdledge the basics of my religion.

 

I am a Christian Orthodox and I will do my best to illustrate it in few words using local tradition and information gathered in religion classes in school and so on.Here are the basics of "my" religion:

 

#There is a single God which is seen as a "trinity?" which is composed of the holy father, spirit, and son ( I do not really grasp the meaning of that and I would appreciate if you could feel me in about this matter)

#According to your doings while you live you will be granted a ticket to either heaven or hell after you die ( this somehow is simmilar to karma) while in Catholic version there is an extra dimension called purgatory which is between heaven and hell.

#There are 10 commandments which everyone must obbey and you can check them out here http://1stholistic.c...ommandments.htm

#The teachings of both catholic and orthodox versions of christianity are based on the Bible which is composed of the old testament and the new one. ( tell me if I'm wrong)

#There is a hierarchy system in both orthodoxism and catholicism which I recall to be one of the reasons that Christianity split into the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church in the Great Schism.Due to some issues I cannot tell much about the hierarchy system of both since there is a barrier of knowledge and language (english is not my native language) but I know that the split was made because political and economical interests and catholics talk about

Papal infallibility which means that the Pope is s preserved from the possibility of error ( quote from Wikipedia.org) which to orthodoxism appears to be an outrage and aqward to me aswell.

#Speciffic prayers such as "Lord's Prayer" http://en.wikipedia....rd's_Prayer

#Some traditional rituals which I don't know if they are practiced in my country such as performing a gesture upon passing near a church which depicts the holy cross

#Other rituals such as adopting a sort of vegetarian diet before easter or christmass but you can however fish based products in certain situations. (fasting I guess is the name)

#Jesus Christ is a central figure in both orthodox and catholic church.He is considered to be the son of god which gave his life in order for us to be redeemed.However in islamism or jewish religion he is either depicted as a mere prophet (again tell me if I'm wrong)

#Creation of the world:6 days to create it and the 7th was for rest, Adam and Eve, the Apple issue (was the snake Steve Jobs? ) , followed by the banishment from the garden, the arch of noa, jesus,and so on.Evolution is sort of discounted.

#Some differences between orthodoxism and catholicism, in orthodox church there are no chairs , the architecture is different whilst in a catholic church there is a chorus and there are chairs for people to sit.Other that that to me the western church seems to be more somptuos and classy whilst the easter one is more basic and simple.

Orthodox crossCatholic cross

Before ending here is a link which may come in handy for you: http://www.patriarhi...zentare_en.html

Now I would like if you could tell me a thing or two about the other important monotheistic religions (jewish and muslim) and about hindu religion which I recall is a politheistic religion which has 3 gods ( brahma vishnu and shiva) and then tell me about buddhism.I want to add that there i have an acquaintance which studied theology at Oxford and told that the Orthodox and Catholic church might merge again and also told me that Christian religion is "the best" (which of course I took with a grain of salt).That's why I want so bad to get more informed.The last thing that I want to add is that that as I said my native language is not english so please forgive any eventual mistakes in my language which may include grammar and the correct usage of words, meaning , bla bla bla...

 

My 2 eurocents , peace!

[GrandmasterP]

Those two old metaphors God and his twin brother the Devil were looking down at a hermit's cave wherein the hermit had just attained enlightenment.

'Nothing here for you to do here now dear brother' said God to the Devil.

'Oh I think not'... replied the Devil, smiling knowingly.

'After he has left his body, that hermit's disciples will found a religion based on their ideas about what he taught them.

And those sorts of things keep me very busy indeed'.

[Marblehead]

Now I would like if you could tell me a thing or two about the other important monotheistic religions (jewish and muslim)

I think that if one wanted to inquire about monotheistic religions one would begin with the first known such religion and that is Zoroastrianism. I suggest that a good starting point would be here:

 

 

http://www.zarathushtra.com/

 

 

PS I am not a religious person so it is likely I will make no more posts to this thread.

[Marius Tudor]

I'm not religious either.I'm merely looking for a comparison between religion not in terms of which one is the best but the teachings and basics

Edited September 27, 2012 by Marius Tudor

[Marius Tudor]

Those two old metaphors God and his twin brother the Devil were looking down at a hermit's cave wherein the hermit had just attained enlightenment.

'Nothing here for you to do here now dear brother' said God to the Devil.

'Oh I think not'... replied the Devil, smiling knowingly.

'After he has left his body, that hermit's disciples will found a religion based on their ideas about what he taught them.

And those sorts of things keep me very busy indeed'.

I do not want to be rude but I did not understand what you said and how it relates to this topic.

 

 

#Marblehead thank you for the info, I will check it out

Edited September 27, 2012 by Marius Tudor

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[GrandmasterP]

My posting is a retelling of an old Taoist story describing where religions all spring from Marius.

 

If you are interested in comparative religion as an academic study then you'd possibly be better starting with wiki and Google rather than here.

But actually it's not an academic study you are after, you wish to scratch an 'itch' of belief, don't you?

Taoism is a nice place for folks such as yourself so you are doubly welcome here.

If I'm wrong then do PM me if you would like some links to comparative religion sites or papers.

HTH

[Jetsun]

A comparison between religions hmmmm you could probably write your whole life about this subject, so I will try to summarise my own thoughts in a few words. I think all religions were created to try to create a beneficial belief system in populations of people in order to reduce suffering and conflict,, the difference in religions is just due to the time and location of where it emerged, but because the world changes so much all systems become rapidly outdated and not relevant if they are not flexible so in the end many of them actually do the opposite of what they set out to do.

 

All religions become corrupted, there is even a Buddhist Sutra of how the Buddha's words were being taught incorrectly just one generation after his death, plus in order to even attempt to understand old scriptures you have to try and grasp how the actual consciousness of the people of that age operated in order to understand what they may have been trying to say, so to interepret then literally using modern day consciousness is just ignorance. On the surface most religions seem very different but when you penetrate into their esoteric component they are usually more or less all talking about the same thing.

[GrandmasterP]

Spot on Jetsun.

It's all Tao, whatever packaging it comes in.

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[GrandmasterP]

Q: Why does the pope wear speedos when he takes a bath?

A: So an not to look down on the unemployed.

[Marius Tudor]

My posting is a retelling of an old Taoist story describing where religions all spring from Marius.

 

If you are interested in comparative religion as an academic study then you'd possibly be better starting with wiki and Google rather than here.

But actually it's not an academic study you are after, you wish to scratch an 'itch' of belief, don't you?

Taoism is a nice place for folks such as yourself so you are doubly welcome here.

If I'm wrong then do PM me if you would like some links to comparative religion sites or papers.

HTH

Yes indeed.I would not try to make an elaborate research upon religions.You were correct anyway, and the real reason that I am here is that I am looking for ways to improve my wellbeing and happiness.The religion part may offer me some answers.

A comparison between religions hmmmm you could probably write your whole life about this subject, so I will try to summarise my own thoughts in a few words. I think all religions were created to try to create a beneficial belief system in populations of people in order to reduce suffering and conflict,, the difference in religions is just due to the time and location of where it emerged, but because the world changes so much all systems become rapidly outdated and not relevant if they are not flexible so in the end many of them actually do the opposite of what they set out to do.

 

All religions become corrupted, there is even a Buddhist Sutra of how the Buddha's words were being taught incorrectly just one generation after his death, plus in order to even attempt to understand old scriptures you have to try and grasp how the actual consciousness of the people of that age operated in order to understand what they may have been trying to say, so to interepret then literally using modern day consciousness is just ignorance. On the surface most religions seem very different but when you penetrate into their esoteric component they are usually more or less all talking about the same thing.

Yes their core is the same , however there are many churches cults, priests, gurus,religions and I can say that I am really confused.I want to clear things out if you will

# Papal infallibility - alludes to the notion that there is actually an absolute authority on the matter...IF so and so says it is so then it is so... presuming that so and so adheres to the truth of the matter... it would be an outrage to think that the head of the church and representative of God would make a false decree in the name of God... of course humans beings being humans just about anything is possible... the way I look at it is that an authority gets its authority from adherence to the truth of the matter and looses it when violating such adherences... in other words, the one making the pronouncement would not be the Pope... though we may thinking it was the Pope... this may just be my personal way of dealing with the issue... though what I say extends to other domains... the math authority is such only when adhering to the true principles of Math...

 

Days in God terms can be eons in human terms...

 

From my perspective the Christian Religion is based on Divine Love Redeeming Humanity ... embrace the way of Divine Love and accept the truth is the only way to heaven... those who sacrifice their truth to the truth will find the truth... those who seek to keep their truth rather than sacrifice it for the sake of the truth may fend up with untruths rather than the truth...

 

Besides the will of God is for individuals full realization and happiness which in my book is that I want so in a sense my will is my will and the will of God is the will of God and we each want the same thing... thus God's will is my will and my will is the will of God ... (presuming that my will adheres to the will of God... and why wouldn't I want divine full realization and happiness).

 

Again notice "the notion that there is actually an absolute authority on the matter...IF so and so says it is so then it is so... " where 'so and so' happens to be God and ultimate absolute authority on every matter... 'IF so and so says it is so then it is so... '...

Too much "so and so".It took me a little while to understand what you said but it is certainly food for thought.

[Marius Tudor]

Q: Why does the pope wear speedos when he takes a bath?

A: So an not to look down on the unemployed.

 

I have another one :

Can god create a shield that he cannot destroy, knowing that he has absolute power? It is an aqward paradox ,.How should you deal with it?The only possible way to deal with it is to basically think in a "languange" in which paradoxes and conflicts never arise.A dilema might arise...What are the basics of such a language?

 

Sorry if I suddenly got to metaphorical.

[mYTHmAKER]

I have another one :

Can god create a shield that he cannot destroy, knowing that he has absolute power? It is an aqward paradox ,.How should you deal with it?The only possible way to deal with it is to basically think in a "languange" in which paradoxes and conflicts never arise.A dilema might arise...What are the basics of such a language?

 

Sorry if I suddenly got to metaphorical.

 

in silence

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[Aaron]

Hello Marius Tudor,

 

I would suggest that if you're really interested in exploring other ideas and not just sharing your own beliefs in the attempt to convert others that you might want to read the Tao Te Ching. It actually addresses the notion of religion and ceremony, perhaps the best chapter to read is 38 (as translated by John C. H. Wu) which follows...

 

High Virtue is non-virtuous;

Therefore it has Virtue.

Low Virtue never frees itself from virtuousness;

Therefore it has no Virtue.

 

High Virtue makes no fuss and has no private ends

to serve:

Low Virtue not only fusses but has private ends to serve.

 

High humanity fusses but has no private ends to serve:

High morality not only fusses but has private ends

to serve.

High ceremony fusses but finds no response;

Then it tries to enforce itself with rolled-up sleeves.

 

Failing Tao, man resorts to Virtue.

Failing Virtue, man resorts to humanity.

Failing humanity, man resorts to morality.

Failing morality, man resorts to ceremony.

Now, ceremony is the merest husk of faith and loyalty;

It is the beginning of all confusion and disorder.

 

As to foreknowledge, it is only the flower of Tao,

And the beginning of folly.

 

Therefore, the full-grown man sets his heart upon

the substance rather than the husk;

Upon the fruit rather than the flower.

Truly, he prefers what is within to what is without.

 

If you read this chapter you begin to understand that ceremony, such as the "sign of the cross", "The Lord's Prayer", communion, and numerous other traditions within Orthodox and Catholic religions are in fact mere husks of faith, since they instill nothing other than words and actions to what should be a deep experience founded upon one's own experience, one that can only be gained through introspection and an understanding of the world around them. I will take it even one step further and wager that if one practices this introspection that their notion of God will begin to unravel, for they will understand that God is everything and as such we are every bit as much God as God is us.

 

Aaron

Edited September 27, 2012 by Aaron

[GrandmasterP]

No cultivation - No happiness.

Know cultivation - Know happiness

Have a go at learning and doing this every morning Marius.

 

 

 

You'll be as happy as Mr Happy from Happy Town within a month

[Marius Tudor]

Hello Marius Tudor,

 

I would suggest that if you're really interested in exploring other ideas and not just sharing your own beliefs in the attempt to convert others that you might want to read the Tao Te Ching. It actually addresses the notion of religion and ceremony, perhaps the best chapter to read is 38 (as translated by John C. H. Wu) which follows...

 

High Virtue is non-virtuous;

Therefore it has Virtue.

Low Virtue never frees itself from virtuousness;

Therefore it has no Virtue.

 

High Virtue makes no fuss and has no private ends

to serve:

Low Virtue not only fusses but has private ends to serve.

 

High humanity fusses but has no private ends to serve:

High morality not only fusses but has private ends

to serve.

High ceremony fusses but finds no response;

Then it tries to enforce itself with rolled-up sleeves.

 

Failing Tao, man resorts to Virtue.

Failing Virtue, man resorts to humanity.

Failing humanity, man resorts to morality.

Failing morality, man resorts to ceremony.

Now, ceremony is the merest husk of faith and loyalty;

It is the beginning of all confusion and disorder.

 

As to foreknowledge, it is only the flower of Tao,

And the beginning of folly.

 

Therefore, the full-grown man sets his heart upon

the substance rather than the husk;

Upon the fruit rather than the flower.

Truly, he prefers what is within to what is without.

 

If you read this chapter you begin to understand that ceremony, such as the "sign of the cross", "The Lord's Prayer", communion, and numerous other traditions within Orthodox and Catholic religions are in fact mere husks of faith, since they instill nothing other than words and actions to what should be a deep experience founded upon one's own experience, one that can only be gained through introspection and an understanding of the world around them. I will take it even one step further and wager that if one practices this introspection that their notion of God will begin to unravel, for they will understand that God is everything and as such we are every bit as much God as God is us.

 

Aaron

Thank you.It should take a while to grasp the meaning of those lyrics.However I will take your advice and read tao te ching and I hope that I can find it easily.

No cultivation - No happiness.

Know cultivation - Know happiness

Have a go at learning and doing this every morning Marius.

 

 

 

You'll be as happy as Mr Happy from Happy Town within a month

 

You know there is a little problem.Mr Happy from Happy Town does not seem to me the right thing, even though I might have a perverted view on what happiness really is.There is an issue which arrises from the depths of my mind.How does happiness affect my ability to attain the truth about life and how does knowing the truth affect the extent to which you are happy? They say afterall that ignorance is bliss.Why I am so full of pesimism?I don't know either.So TRUTH or HAPPINESS?

 

Seems to be a nice stretch , good to set you up for the day.I will give it a try definetely !

Edited September 27, 2012 by Marius Tudor

[Marblehead]

So TRUTH or HAPPINESS?

Both can exist simultaneously!

[steve]

To the OP -

 

I'm partial to Osho's definition of religion- I will paraphrase:

 

Real religion is a person's private, internal search for their true nature

Everything else is politics.

 

If you have a background in Christianity and tend to think of the world in terms of that concept of God, there are two sources I'd highly recommend for a glimpse into "real" religion (as opposed to institutional politics and idolatry) -

 

Anthony Demello (http://www.demellospirituality.com/) - now deceased Jesuit priest and psychologist from India. All of his writings are priceless (especially Awareness) and his CD collection called Wake Up to Life is brilliant. It's about 8 CDs and I've listened through them all multiple times, always learning something new.

 

John O'Donohue (http://www.johnodonohue.com/) - also deceased priest who retired from the clergy in 2000 to teach spirituality in a Celtic framework informed by his love of poetry and nature. I'm currently listening to a set of CDs of his talks called Wisdom from the Celtic World (for the second time). Absolutely beautiful and brilliant stuff. He perfectly reveals the essence of Daoism in the language of Celtic spirituality and Christianity.

 

I never could really see the wisdom in the Christian scriptures until seeing it through the eyes of the these two teachers. I'm not a Christian, mind you (never have been), but I can now hear and see how those scriptures are pointing toward the truth, like the great writings of other traditions. Sadly, most of that is intentionally and effectively obscured by the institutional framework within which it is presented. In fact, the church was so threatened by DeMello's words that the present pope issued this warning to Catholics in his previous job as official censor for the Vatican - http://www.ewtn.com/...ia/cdfdemel.htm

Edited September 27, 2012 by steve

[Marius Tudor]

Yes indeed I have a certain religious backround however I feel that I do not belong to any religion.Anyway I will take a look on those links you provided.

[Fū Yue]

Thank you.It should take a while to grasp the meaning of those lyrics.However I will take your advice and read tao te ching and I hope that I can find it easily.

 

 

You know there is a little problem.Mr Happy from Happy Town does not seem to me the right thing, even though I might have a perverted view on what happiness really is.There is an issue which arrises from the depths of my mind.How does happiness affect my ability to attain the truth about life and how does knowing the truth affect the extent to which you are happy? They say afterall that ignorance is bliss.Why I am so full of pesimism?I don't know either.So TRUTH or HAPPINESS?

 

Those who say ignorance is bliss have never tasted any sort of true bliss which is inseparable from the truth. They are just trying to justify their meager and fleeting pleasures which do not give them any sort of relief or peace of mind - and without that peace of mind, there can be no real bliss.

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[mYTHmAKER]

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Edited September 27, 2012 by mYTHmAKER

[Marius Tudor]

I will take a break, I must go through the information you gave me firstly then I'll think of what's next.What I'm really excited is about one moth happy guy happy land thing

 

I apreciate

 

Edit:I think this thread has served it's purpose for me since I got the quintessence.Is there is still anything to be added please feel free to send me a private message or lay it here.I will most probably start a new thread on a different subject soon.

Edited September 27, 2012 by Marius Tudor