Taoism and masturbation

[skydog]

Trying, effort and intefering with nature is what semen retention brings to mind.

 

If one is going with the flow when one feel horny one would most likely masturbate.

 

If one did this reguarly enough one would possibly notice the drain in energy and NATURALLY would not want to masturbate.

 

Im not even sure if this opinion is correct but thats like all opinions really.

[宁]

Taoism and Masturbation? Ya can't have one without another. Not on TTB!

[Ish]

Taoism and Masturbation? Ya can't have one without another. Not on TTB!

 

Yeah.. its a downright obsession on here, maybe should have a month of no topics and less thinking about wacking off.

It might even help the issue!

[Birch]

Prior to reading the TTB's I had no idea that guys were going at it that much. And then at one point the 'kundalini' fired 'just so' for a while and I suddenly and painfully understood what it might be like to be a young dude (in my case, I used 'MCO' as a catch-all for pretty much everything for a while).

 

Where I am curious about male masturbation (or even sex for that matter) is that it seems to get co-opted as a 'stress-management' behavior for pretty much everything. The stuff I've read on here suggests that ejac is itself stressful for men and so some kind of 'non-virtuous circle' is established where the guy feels terrible/stressed, whacks off, feels better, then feels terrible/stressed, rince and repeat.

 

But then there's the whole 'socio-cultural-religious' 'overlay' which apparently makes it stressful for men to pleasure themselves from very early on (as soon as someone says 'Don't touch that') - making neurotics of many. So, to the contrary, I think it's a valid topic on TTB's (especially since so many practices use 'sexual energy' in one way or another).

[宁]

Yeah.. its a downright obsession on here, maybe should have a month of no topics and less thinking about wacking off.

It might even help the issue!

 

isn't it strange that people create Forum Sections dedicated to subjects that are LESS discussed than masturbation?

 

although admitedly it wouldn't look pretty, how about a Forum Section dedicated to (spiritual) Wankers?

 

The Tao of Wacking Off?

 

Wacking all the Way?

 

The Way of Wacking and it's Virtue?

 

 

 

Spiritual Medical Wacking Off Neigong?

 

....

 

Titles anyone?

 

Edited August 18, 2012 by 宁

[chi 2012]

It's common for men now a days in their 20's, 30's, and 40's, to have a sudden drop in their libido...and after taking tests showing that their testosterone is low - they are put on TRT for the rest of their lives. About 10 years ago a guy named Dr. Lin bombarded the internet - and made the claim that the reason for this is because of excessive ejaculation/masturbation. Most medical doctors says this is nonsense. But a few have agreed with Dr. Lin. So the big question is - is Dr. Lin correct or not?

[Gerard]

Open your kwa and all those gnarly leg meridians via intensive neijia work and sex will be vaporised of your minds, hehe. There are also other things to take into account.

Edited August 18, 2012 by Gerard

[Birch]

Open your kwa and all those gnarly leg meridians via intensive neijia work and sex will be vaporised of your minds, hehe. There are also other things to take into account.

 

Thanks Gerard, I'm actually interested in the 'intensive neijia' as my 'gnarly leg meridians have been giving me gyp. I went from being up and about to having to sit on my butt in front of a computer for hours on end this week and I can def feel that my lower spine and my legs don't like it.

[skydog]

yeh thanks gerard

[Disabled Not Broken]

Trying, effort and intefering with nature is what semen retention brings to mind.

 

If one is going with the flow when one feel horny one would most likely masturbate.

 

If one did this reguarly enough one would possibly notice the drain in energy and NATURALLY would not want to masturbate.

 

Im not even sure if this opinion is correct but thats like all opinions really.

Sometimes, when a person thinks they feel 'hunger'-- they are actually feeling 'thirst'

 

Sometimes, when a person feels an overabundunce of energy in their lower chakras- they misinterpret that as a 'sexual yearning'....

[RiverSnake]

As a man learning how to manage and control one's sexual energy is very important.

 

There is a reason why so many Alpha males (men with lots of sexual energy) are in prison....they don't know how to channel there energy into productive pursuits and just end up being angry, self-destructive, frustrated and violent people....when they could be some of the most powerful and productive people in society.

 

When male energy is not channeled guided through proper meditation it can easily turn self-destructive.....much is lost in ignorance.

 

-My 2 cents, Peace

Edited August 18, 2012 by OldGreen

[suninmyeyes]

Sometimes, when a person thinks they feel 'hunger'-- they are actually feeling 'thirst'

 

Sometimes, when a person feels an overabundunce of energy in their lower chakras- they misinterpret that as a 'sexual yearning'....

Yes so true, I have noticed that too in both cases .

[suninmyeyes]

dp

Edited August 18, 2012 by suninmyeyes

[templarmonk]

You can go with the flow.

 

But, what flow?

 

The animal flow?

 

The mind flow?

 

The spirit flow?

 

I think we want to wake up, and be free of the flow.

Edited August 18, 2012 by templarmonk

[Aaron]

I really can't believe the number of people that have issues with masturbation. It seems like people will believe anything they're told, without any verifiable evidence to support it. The scientific community has agreed for numerous decades now that masturbation is NATURAL and normal, however religious groups still try to impose this idea that it is sinful and unhealthy. Kate made an interesting observation in another thread regarding how our identity is linked to our sexual organs, that it essentially dictates who we are and how we behave, not just sexually, but also interpersonally. I believe that religions realized this long ago and understood that the only way to ensure that their members remained faithful was to remove it from the equation, hence the taboos on sex, including masturbation. The more sexually free someone is, the less likely they are to be influenced by outside sources, especially in regards to their self-identity. Take for example the obsession people have on this board regarding the effects of masturbation on their qigong practice. Ask yourself some simple questions and come to your own conclusion...

 

If masturbation is unnatural, why are we essentially programmed to perform the act? Nearly everyone has performed the act before they leave puberty, most as they enter. If it was really that harmful, why would it be so prevalent?

 

Why do religions tend to villianize the act, claiming it has negative effects on people, physically and spiritually? In nearly every study I've seen abstinence from masturbation actually increases the levels of testosterone in males, which may account for why nearly every male engages in the act... increases in testosterone can lead to anxiety, depression, mood swings, aggression, and increased sexual arousal. The act of masturbation actually helps to decrease these impulses and allow for a more balanced interpersonal relationship with others, in other words it actually does have a calming effect. If we know scientifically that the act of masturbation is beneficial, the only reason religions would have to perpetuate this negative image is to control the people who engage in the act through coercion, absolution of sin comes to mind. If the only way to be absolved from this sin is to engage in religious acts, it makes it an almost certainty that those people committing the sin will keep coming back. Think about the next time you're told to perform five "Hail Mary's" and six "Our Fathers" or that the only way to prevent a loss of qi is through abstinence.

 

Why would religious institutions almost universally encourage abstinence in their clergy? The desire to have sex is one of our strongest impulses, in fact it is the primary reason we develop interpersonal relationships with others. If one wants to ensure that their clergy will be loyal to their religious institution they must first eliminate this obstacle. A ban on sex is the easiest solution because it prevents the clergy from developing relationships and having families. A clergyman (or woman) with a family has to divide their loyalty between the institution and their family, and unlike Abraham, the vast majority aren't willing to sacrifice their wife or children for God, Buddha, or the Celestial Court.

 

So, I could go on, but I'm repeating myself and it really does get tiresome. The fact of the matter is that anyone who has studied sociology and understands the dynamics of society understands that the reason for such strict ideology and prohibitions against sexual deviations, is to ensure a strict control of the behavior of that society. The more control exerted on their sexual activity, the more control they have on the individual.

 

There is a reason why homosexuality is rampant in monasteries, just as their is a reason why nearly every male on the face of the earth engages in masturbation, despite the moral reprehension, engaging in masturbation and sexual intercourse it is a natural impulse that is difficult to defy, think of it in the terms of telling your body not to eat when it's hungry or not talking to someone else when you're lonely.

 

The funny thing to me is that with the scientific evidence provided one would assume that masturbation would also be beneficial spiritually, however centuries of stigmatization has led to a perception that giving in to a natural urge is a sign of weakness and sin. It's sort of like the impulse to kill a cockroach when we see it. Yes in large numbers they can be unhealthy, but they actually have a place in the natural order, digesting things other creatures wont. The notion to kill them comes from the social construct we've been taught, that they are filthy creatures. Ask any entomologist about a cockroach and they will go on and on about how marvelous and wonderful these insects actually are. So if they are so wonderful and marvelous to the educated person, why do so many of us continue to revile them? Because we still believe what we are told.

 

STOP LETTING RELIGION DICTATE THE TRUTH AND START FIGURING IT OUT FOR YOURSELF. I thought that deserved caps because so many people seem to be incapable of doing this. Will you be blind, allowing someone to tell you what the world looks like, or will you see it for yourself? It's your decision, but hopefully, before someone else starts a rant or thread about masturbation they'll read this first and at least get the inkling to think about this topic for themselves. Trust facts, not faith.

 

Aaron

[Aetherous]

The advice of TCM practitioners has been totally right. Every few days or so, depending on your age, is much better than masturbation every day. Don't use up your essence...don't "drive your car" with no "oil" in it! There is a very factual basis on which all of these Chinese and Taoist theories are based! I know through personal experience...we should all find out the same way. For someone whose energy channels are actually open, they can tell...and for those who practice such methods, it's more important for you to preserve your essence than for a normal person. This is Taoist wisdom and knowledge, not just personal opinion. Practice something real. Find out.

[Disabled Not Broken]

STOP LETTING RELIGION DICTATE THE TRUTH AND START FIGURING IT OUT FOR YOURSELF. I thought that deserved caps because so many people seem to be incapable of doing this. Will you be blind, allowing someone to tell you what the world looks like, or will you see it for yourself? It's your decision, but hopefully, before someone else starts a rant or thread about masturbation they'll read this first and at least get the inkling to think about this topic for themselves. Trust facts, not faith.

 

Aaron

 

I agree, religion keeps people in chains. Overpopulation also was a big reason for celibacy in China, India etc [i mentioned all this in another post]

 

However, for Qi practice, this must be considered a separate issue.

No 'sin' involved- abstinence will help Jing/Chi/Shen.

 

But, if it is causing stress/Cortisol, etc - then it defeats the purpose.

[Disabled Not Broken]

D/P

Edited August 19, 2012 by Disabled Not Broken

[Aaron]

The advice of TCM practitioners has been totally right. Every few days or so, depending on your age, is much better than masturbation every day. Don't use up your essence...don't "drive your car" with no "oil" in it! There is a very factual basis on which all of these Chinese and Taoist theories are based! I know through personal experience...we should all find out the same way. For someone whose energy channels are actually open, they can tell...and for those who practice such methods, it's more important for you to preserve your essence than for a normal person. This is Taoist wisdom and knowledge, not just personal opinion. Practice something real. Find out.

 

This is religion ensuring its survival by controlling its followers actions. In the old days the Catholic Church had a ton of myths about sex and masturbation that people believed were true and on occasion the symptoms they advocated actually did occur, but there was no actual scientific evidence to correlate anything between the two. In the same way there is ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE, other than anecdotal, to prove that masturbation reduces jing/qi/energy. Of course if you believe it to be true, then there is a good chance your brain will convince you it is. Think of all the people cured by water that has absolutely no curing processes... the mind over body at work. The same goes for someone who is told they will be weakened when they masturbate or gain more energy.

 

Again no evidence, just myth and religion working hard to keep itself alive.

 

Aaron

[Aaron]

I agree, religion keeps people in chains. Overpopulation also was a big reason for celibacy in China, India etc [i mentioned all this in another post]

 

However, for Qi practice, this must be considered a separate issue.

No 'sin' involved- abstinence will help Jing/Chi/Shen.

 

But, if it is causing stress/Cortisol, etc - then it defeats the purpose.

 

Can you provide a historical basis for the celibacy in China and India? I've yet to find anything to support that it was done for any other reason than religious observation.

 

Aaron

[Disabled Not Broken]

Of course if you believe it to be true, then there is a good chance your brain will convince you it is. Think of all the people cured by water that has absolutely no curing processes... the mind over body at work.

Aaron

 

If you strip the mysticism out it, and it is all 'placebo effect'.. then you can easily say, the the feeling of energy streaming through a chi practitioner are just the symptoms of Multiple Sclerosis.

 

In your logic, if it can not be explored under a microscope, it does not exist.

 

That's why Acupuncture is still a buried science in the western world...

 

Meridians? What meridians? I can't find them on your X-rays...

 

In the same way there is ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE, other than anecdotal, to prove that masturbation reduces jing/qi/energy.

Aaron

 

Evidence is best noted by those who actually practice.

 

My body is my laboratory, and I am it's scientist.

 

Seminal Retention, after a modest 'withholding period' ---of a couple of months, creates a huge difference [My Opinion]

 

The flip side is, if someone wants to deny that fact- they can easily say when ''I am celibate, I get sick'', and proceed to create a list of facts to back it up.

 

Can you provide a historical basis for the celibacy in China and India? I've yet to find anything to support that it was done for any other reason than religious observation.

 

Aaron

 

 

Common sense?

China had a 1 child per couple law.

Celibacy is also a form of Birth Control.

[Aetherous]

This is religion ensuring its survival by controlling its followers actions. In the old days the Catholic Church had a ton of myths about sex and masturbation that people believed were true and on occasion the symptoms they advocated actually did occur, but there was no actual scientific evidence to correlate anything between the two. In the same way there is ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE, other than anecdotal, to prove that masturbation reduces jing/qi/energy. Of course if you believe it to be true, then there is a good chance your brain will convince you it is. Think of all the people cured by water that has absolutely no curing processes... the mind over body at work. The same goes for someone who is told they will be weakened when they masturbate or gain more energy.

 

Again no evidence, just myth and religion working hard to keep itself alive.

 

There is some scientific evidence. Look it up before speaking, please. Testosterone drops until the 2nd day after ejaculation. It spikes on day 7. That is just one indicator...of course masturbation has many other physiological effects besides testosterone changes...maybe there are other studies out there showing that.

 

Anecdotal evidence is evidence. Myself and many others who come to this forum have found that it has a slight weakening effect. This is because we pay attention to our bodies and minds. Because we found out through practicing methods which require us to not ejaculate all the time.

 

Consider this: not a single person has come here and claimed that draining themselves has given them greater energy and health. Hmmmmmmmm...let the thinking begin!

 

Try this...ejaculate 3 times a day and see how you feel...then wait a week and see how you feel. There is an actual difference between the two. If you can't feel a difference, you need to develop some sensitivity...or honesty.

 

I have no desire to perpetuate harmful mythology and religion, Aaron...and that is not what I'm doing. Wake up. Oh yeah, conversation over.

[Ish]

Sex is another matter but it's obvious masturbation has a negative effect on the body, if overdone.

The standards these days of a reasonable amount are far too much, most people think once a day is OK, but in my opinion thats bad for you. Also say bye bye to your cultivation if you're doing that.

 

Theres no need to beat yourself up over it or over exaggerate the negative effects, but as with any activity be honest with yourself as to why you need to do it and what you are getting. For me aswell its hard to go "tee total" but slowly making progress and getting better understanding.

 

As Scotty said, a self experiment should make it very clear. If you cant even bring yourself to stop to test it out you may be more addicted than you think.

[Aaron]

There is some scientific evidence. Look it up before speaking, please. Testosterone drops until the 2nd day after ejaculation. It spikes on day 7. That is just one indicator...of course masturbation has many other physiological effects besides testosterone changes...maybe there are other studies out there showing that.

 

Anecdotal evidence is evidence. Myself and many others who come to this forum have found that it has a slight weakening effect. This is because we pay attention to our bodies and minds. Because we found out through practicing methods which require us to not ejaculate all the time.

 

Consider this: not a single person has come here and claimed that draining themselves has given them greater energy and health. Hmmmmmmmm...let the thinking begin!

 

Try this...ejaculate 3 times a day and see how you feel...then wait a week and see how you feel. There is an actual difference between the two. If you can't feel a difference, you need to develop some sensitivity...or honesty.

 

I have no desire to perpetuate harmful mythology and religion, Aaron...and that is not what I'm doing. Wake up. Oh yeah, conversation over.

 

Well first of all, anecdotal evidence is anecdotal, which means it has not been proven factually. Second you're proving my point when you say "Try this...ejaculate 3 times a day and see how you feel...then wait a week and see how you feel. There is an actual difference between the two. If you can't feel a difference, you need to develop some sensitivity...or honesty." What you're doing is leading me to a conclusion and telling me that if I fail to come to that conclusion then I have failed or lack the ability to understand, or in this case, I'm lying to myself.

 

Compulsive masturbation can be a problem, but there are many young men that masturbate 2-3 times a day with NO negative effects. The negative effects I see repeatedly recounted on this forum, don't stem from an actual physical side effect of masturbation, but from brainwashing. They already have a negative view of masturbation that was forced upon them by moral and religious dogma, that combined with phrases like "pay attention and you'll see" which inevitably leads them to see what they're paying attention to, results in them actually manifesting a psychosomatic physical ailment. It astounds me how many people who come here saying they're "suffering" yet they go to a doctor and the doctor can't find anything wrong with them.

 

I see the pattern, but you apparently have been blinded by your faith and are unable to see beyond that.

 

Oh and I did ejaculate 3 or more times a day when I was younger and I can't say I had any negative physical side effects. I was an excellent athlete, even earning a scholarship for basketball at that time. I masturbate frequently and I have no qualms about it, nor do I feel tired or weak because of it. In fact I am quite healthy for my age. Most people think I'm younger than I actually am, so if all this masturbation is killing me slowly, well at least I'll enter the grave looking and feeling younger than I am. I've met a few mystics in my time and I've been told over and over that I have an abundance of energy, but I don't think it's because I actually have energy, but because I am confident, compassionate, and understanding. I try very hard to put others first and minimize my effect on others. What they mistakenly believe is that this is a result of energy practice, when in fact it's the result of over twenty years of meditation and profound realizations about my place within this world.

 

I'm not going to stop arguing against abstinence, because I think it's unhealthy, spiritually and emotionally. I have abstained in the past and I can abstain when I need to, but I don't feel I NEED too. I don't feel there is sufficient evidence to warrant it, and in fact I think the evidence is to the contrary.

 

The funny thing is that no one has yet to provide any factual scientific evidence to support that masturbation is unhealthy, all I hear is "masturbation makes angels cry" and "masturbation makes you lose precious jing". Well tell me where has science even identified that jing actually exists?

 

You know what the major complaint of doctors in China is? The sheer number of people that die because they don't seek medical treatment from an actual doctor, but rather seek out folk treatments instead. It's this reliance on myth that's killing people and diminishing the spirit. Facts and faith are what this comes down to. You're stating faith as if it's a fact, but it isn't, especially not just because you say it's is.

 

Aaron

 

edit- And I would bow out of this argument, because you'll lose. I can start digging up research and links to research that proves what I'm saying, but all you'll be able to find is a few "Masters" that have claims that can't be substantiated as real under close scrutiny.

Edited August 19, 2012 by Aaron

[Aaron]

As Scotty said, a self experiment should make it very clear. If you cant even bring yourself to stop to test it out you may be more addicted than you think.

 

The impulse to masturbate is normal and a result of increased testosterone in the blood. The desire to masturbate is not an addiction, it's an impulse we have that is a part of the natural process of being human. Monkeys masturbate quite frequently with no negative side effects. Apparently they don't need to abstain, but for some reason humans do? Quite peculiar.

 

I am not so weak minded or superstitious that just because someone says I'm addicted I'll believe them, nor am I so uneducated regarding the facts, that I'll discount everything and just accept it based on someone else's testimony, especially if that testimony has no actual basis, other than anecdotal evidence.

 

I have abstained from sex for long periods of time, especially when I was in the Christian religion. I have even abstained as a result of my Taoist practices. I have yet to sense anything you've stated, and it's not because I lack sensitivity, but because I understand the power of suggestion and refuse to let it influence my observations.

 

I am here to tell everyone that I masturbate frequently, that it definitely reduces stress in my life, that it has had no negative side effects on my physical, mental, or spiritual health. So if I call you on this BS, it's because I know from personal experience that it is BS, of course you'll just say that's my own anecdotal evidence, so don't take my word for it, take the American Medical Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the various other medical associations around the world and the million or so doctors that say otherwise, or is that not enough evidence to counter the few thousand or so qigong masters that have claimed otherwise?

 

Aaron