Ish

San Ti Shi

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what is your weight distribution in regards to the front leg to back leg?

i enjoy this posture big time, and practice both sides obviously.

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This is more like an on guard position to be ready for combat.

Most of the weight should be distributed on the rear leg.

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yes more weight on the back leg. i go for 60/40 but i know others go 70/30 or 80/20 etc.

i was asking ish about his weight distribution.

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About 70-30 ~ 60-40 . How long do you practice it?

Personally im not going to time anything but around 15 mins per side will probably be a start for me.

I've noticed It feels quite refreshing to practice a lopsided form alongside the holding ball posture.

The stance itself feels quite powerful, will have to see what it brings with some regular practice.

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Frantzis has two or three DVD's on San Ti. Unfortunately, it is a portion of a package of 11 DVD's. You can check his website, some info there posted free.

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Lam Kam Chuen calls it the "on guard" posture. He uses in his book as an intro to bearing all the weight on one leg (the rear one in this case.)

 

To quote the author "You need to be accomplished in this practice so that you can hold any position with the weight on one side for as long as you normally stand with your weight evenly spread." "Lower your right hand until it is level with your navel. Your palm is facing downwards. Turn your left hand so that it extends towards the left diagonal in line with your left toes. The palm also faces downwards. Relax neck and shoulders. Imagine there are balloons supporting you under your armpits and elbows, and a large one on which you rest your bottom"

 

Another good quote: "Train with your body oriendted to the right diagonal as well as to the left. As you become familiar with standing in this posture, extend your front foot forwards and sink lower on the back leg to deepen your stance "

 

 

I hope this helps.

Edited by jaysahnztao

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I use 100/0 weight distribution.

 

Its a very complex stance that takes several years to learn correctly. Especially considering the vision aspect, where you look with the back' of your eyes, so everything is in perfect focus. And the breathing techniques, drawing energy from you hand to nose, then down to LDT.

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Santi is the basic foundation of Xingyi quan. It is great, but is different from "holding the ball" posture (that you see in Yiquan).

It is very martially oriented, right from the start (whereas universal post can be used for meditation only). It is good to learn how to project energy for example. The weight distribution helps you to be powerful and balanced in the same time.

 

However, I do not agree that it is an "on guard" position, although it looks like it. I used to believe this for a long time, but changed my mind thanks to sparring practice.

There is actually no "on guard" in a self defence context. Even for sparring, this is not the best. I am particulary thinking about hook punches that you cannot easily counter if you are in santi.

I believe an "open guard" is better (like the Yiquan positions, silat guard postures, or even boxing guard with open hands)

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I would suggest Frantzis' DVD's on the topic.

 

A bit pricey, yes. But worth every dollar. He goes into GREAT detail.

 

It is a very complex posture. However (according to Frantzis) it is one of the BEST postures to build a vast reserve of chi, whether you want that for health or for martial arts.

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I would suggest Frantzis' DVD's on the topic.

 

A bit pricey, yes. But worth every dollar. He goes into GREAT detail.

 

It is a very complex posture. However (according to Frantzis) it is one of the BEST postures to build a vast reserve of chi, whether you want that for health or for martial arts.

 

 

Agreed !

 

Its the best resource on the San Ti stance. He doesn't leave anything out.

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I would suggest Frantzis' DVD's on the topic.

 

A bit pricey, yes. But worth every dollar. He goes into GREAT detail.

 

It is a very complex posture. However (according to Frantzis) it is one of the BEST postures to build a vast reserve of chi, whether you want that for health or for martial arts.

 

Thanks i'll check out the Dvd, by the way does Bruce Frantzis advocate the 100-0 weighting?

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There are lots of great resources for San Ti-

and there are also different ways to train the stance depending on what line of Xing Yi someone is practicing

 

a lot of the subtleties of the stance will only come with time

and corrections (either from a teacher or self correction)

 

I have some instructional material up on the web

(you can try the first month of training for $1)

http://onlineschool....=416&Itemid=346

so this is another resource that people could use if they wanted to

and its not that expensive either.

 

San Ti is really about building the body and the connections for further Xing Yi practice

of course it also builds the energy

but it takes a while to be able to do the stance coirrectly to be able to get to that level

 

traditionally xing yi practice was

6 months of santi

and then the 5 elements

1 year of pi quan (metal)

6 months of zuan quan (water)

6 months of beng quan (wood)

6 months of pao quan (fire)

6 months of heng quan (earth)

 

and each of the five element forms can be used to strengthen the internal organs related to the element

and each conditions the body in a slightly different way

and brings the power out..

 

 

Franklin

 

 

ps- San Ti doesn't translated as 3 treasures stance (that would be san bao shi)

it translates as 3 body posture

but is does refer to the 3 treasures , the three divisions of the body, etc, etc....

Edited by Franklin

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Tips? Purchase wood and chicken wire. Build a chicken pen. Get chickens. When they start laying, start your San Ti practice. Practice for one year. After the year move onwards to metal,water,wood, fire, earth spending a minimum of several months each.

Chen Pan Ling's senior student Y.W. Chang taught 70/30 weight distribution. 30 degrees with back foot. Different systems of Hsing I teach it differently.

 

And why the chickens, you ask? You are not doing San Ti correctly unless you can hold eggs under arms without breaking them (and without dropping them). Trust me, you gonna need that chicken pen unless you have done this sort of thing before.

 

San Ti is martial. From San Ti position one can move very quickly a great distance with offensive defense. It can be devastating. All phase choices -listed above- (and linking) come from San Ti and then there are advanced animal forms. Moment arms, strike force vectors, and blocking angles are optimized. In line ghost boxing.

 

As martial San Ti is great.

 

As strictly meditative energetics? meh.. I don't think that much of it in terms of energetic efficiency. Personally I would much rather be doing neigong movements. But I do occasionally practice the Hsing I for exercise. Good stuff!

Edited by Ya Mu
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Thanks i'll check out the Dvd, by the way does Bruce Frantzis advocate the 100-0 weighting?

 

Short answer: yes.

 

Alternate answer: it depends.

 

Complete answer: The great thing about Frantzis is that since he's trained with many different masters in several different lineages in several different styles, he has the perspective to see not just WHAT the different variations are, but WHY they came to be that way, HOW they develop the energy or the body differently, what is best for each situation.

 

So when he gives you a breakdown of the differences between a Yang or Wu version of a movement, or a Shanxi or Hebei style of xingyi, you come away with it not knowing which one is "better", but knowing that each movement does exactly what it was designed to do, and therefore what method you should do depending on what your overall goal is.

 

I do believe that he says that the 100-0 stance is best for overall chi building- whether you want to do it for physical health or for martial power.

 

If I recall correctly, he seems to allude to the fact that other stances, from 60-40 to 70-30 to 80-20, affect the body differently than the 100-0 stance, I think helping it build more muscle (but don't quote me on that, I don't recall if that was from Frantzis or another source).

 

Ya Mu also brings up another point that Frantzis also mentions multiple times in multiple situations- xingyi is MARTIAL. It is great as a physical system. It can generate a lot of chi energy. But it sort of caps out in terms of spiritual development.

 

Now for Frantzis, he's pretty upfront that, in his opinion, Bagua is the full package- be it physical health, combat prowess, or spiritual development. Depending on your lineage of Tai Chi, it might also provide a full on physical, energetic, and spiritual path to development (the lineage he inherited from Liu Hung Chieh is one such lineage).

 

 

That said, San Ti is still great, and Frantzis makes a point that though his main teacher, Liu Hung Chieh, alternated the practices of Tai Chi or Bagua depending on the situation, Liu Hung Chieh practiced the five elements of xingyi every day because they were excellent methods of energizing the physical body.

Edited by Sloppy Zhang

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Ya Mu...

 

Is that what you teach....???

I don't teach Hsing I. I never finished my study as my teacher passed on after only 3 years of study. I studied with Y.W. Chang, a senior student of Chen Pan Ling who was very famous for his martial abilities and for mastering over 75 different MA forms.

What I teach is Qigong, Neigong, and Medical Qigong. My comments were based on my own learning of San Ti / Hsing I and from practicing qigong for a very long time, not as a Hsing I teacher.

I practice for physical body exercise but am not a serious practitioner of MA as my interests and expertise are in neigong and medical qigong.

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How long do you practice it? i usually do 10-20 minutes a day, altho sometimes 30 and have done 45.

one side a day , then another another.

I use 100/0 weight distribution. like a false stance?

San Ti is really about building the body and the connections for further Xing Yi practice

of course it also builds the energy i agree with franklin. i find it very wealthy in energetics.and establishing your root.

And why the chickens, you ask? everyone should have chickens, and not just to watch them fight. here is another thing you can do with eggs, as one of my kentucky ma brothers shows here: wait i need to find sinfest's spoiler tag.

 

 

another thing i really find groovy,(back in skewl today and a professor said groovy) is that with san ti shi, the 5 elements fists and the linking form, if you ponder as you go and consider some things common to all IMA. you could have a decent internal martial arts game just with these. ldt ldt ldt. the advanced animal forms are simple too,(and i like the horse) but the linking form gives great mileage.

i wouldnt really use it as an on gaurd stance tho. but that is a personal choice based on experience. i really like san ti shi. oh , i said that already. i also agree with franklin that pi quan needs the extra attention.

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I'm integrating San Ti stance into a Zhan Zhuang routine.

At the moment following this posture

 

Santishi_sunlutang.jpg

 

Any tips, reliable resources, experiences on this training?

 

A few tips -

I highly recommend warming up before San Ti Shi practice.

You can do it before or after other training but make sure you are warm and loose.

 

Rear foot open ~45 degrees, front toe forward or very slightly inward.

Front heel in line with rear heel, more or less.

70/30 rear/front is classic and a good place to start.

Front hand index finger tip directly above front toe and directly in front of nose.

Rear hand thumb points at navel.

Space under armpits - not too much, just an open feeling.

Shoulders relaxed, elbows sunk, but maintain Song - not collapsed.

Mild bend to knees.

Start with feet ~ 1.5 feet apart in the beginning (front to back).

Lift head from crown, slightly tuck chin.

Slightly extend index fingers and thumbs with lesser fingers slightly relaxed to form Hu Kuo (tiger's mouth).

Wrists slightly extended but not overly so - beware of extending the wrist too much - it creates too much tension.

 

The photo of Sun Lu Tang exhibits two defects (yup, I'm criticizing Sun Lu Tang's photo).

His elbow is too extended and wrist too extended for a beginner to copy - notice how his left hand is forward of his front foot.

This is not in keeping with the Xingyiquan principles of three harmonies (hand/foot, elbow/knee, shoulder/hip).

Better to have slightly more bend in the elbow and slightly less extension in the wrist.

 

Internally, there are also three harmonies - Xin/Yi, Yi/Qi, Qi/Li

Mind/Intent, Intent/Vital Energy, Vital Energy/Power

 

The index finger of the front hand is a good place to focus the intent in the beginning.

Xingyiquan emphasizes a very aggressive mind of intent in it's martial method and this state of mind may come naturally with prolonged standing in San Ti Shi. This is natural and desirable if it occurs.

 

 

 

 

This is very challenging training and may become uncomfortable as you challenge yourself. Most complain about the shoulders and thighs. The feet can become painful as well, as your body and mind adjust to the posture and isometric work.

Start with 5 minutes per side and slowly build to 30 minutes per side over several months.

Don't overdo it in the beginning or you may injure yourself, then it will be harder to progress.

 

Good luck!

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Zhang Yun's article is great, as is his book that he published with Blue Snake. Terrific stuff with tons of detail.

 

Kumar teaches 100% back weight in San Ti unless you are injured, then back off until you are healed.

 

San Ti is good stuff, but hard work and take your time, don't get too frustrated. It's a lifelong pursuit and you must let your knees, and legs adjust so you don't hurt yourself.

 

 

We hosted Kumar for a series of Hsing-I classes over the last few years that were good fun. We did many many sessions of San Ti with him over the years. One involved awakening the five elements of chinese medicine while standing in San Ti, using Nei Gung exercises within it to open up specific organs, energies and feelings within. Never did that before, it was quite an interesting approach and showed me how deep a simple stance can go.

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