Yin/Yan and 5 Element theory quaint ancient ideas

[ChiDragon]

Let's get the fundamental out of the way first....

 

The meaning of Yin-Yang

Edited July 12, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Stosh]

Let's get the fundamental out of the way first....

 

The meaning of Tin-Yang

CD,,

My computer locked up when I went to access that tin yang thing

So what is the fundamental you want approached first?

 

Aseeker

I agree , you wold pick whoever you think would get the job done best

The physics students may also be big dudes on the football squad and make the job easy

The 'experienced' dropouts might not make safe decisions and get someone killed

or vice versa.

 

But I think the point that was trying to be made

was that book smarts -while is generally true helpful etc

the narrow experience derived understanding of piano moving

may be the knowlege required to get the job done.

 

AGAIN

I SAID

How do you think, considering yin and yang as 'forces'

sheds light on objective reality?

the response

I'd answer yin yan theory and even more so 5 element theory is an ideal way to view the world. It allows the mind to come up with real world solutions to real world problems. Its a way of strategic thinking that works well. It's not be chemically correct, but if studied gives a dynamic way of looking at and solving problems.

 

and ever since then I have been trying to get someone

to lay a foundation for the assertions.

 

maybe we just need to restart the thread anew.

Stosh

Edited July 12, 2012 by Stosh

[ChiDragon]

CD,,

My computer locked up when I went to access that tin yin yang thing

So what is the fundamental you want approached first?

 

 

AGAIN

 

Where does the Yin Yang Symbol come from?

 

is a well-known Chinese Yin Yang symbol. Sometimes it's called Tai-Chi symbol. The Tai-Chi is from I-Ching. The I-Ching is the greatest foundation of Chinese philosophy. It's development is from the natural phenomena of our universe.

Because I-Ching comes from nature, it is believed it should be natural and easy to understand.

 

The Chinese characters of I-Ching are . The second character means a book, a profound book. The first character means ease or change. Since I-Ching is easy, some people call it as "The Book of Ease" or "The Book of Changes". The original Chinese character of is , which is a symbol combining the sun (top) and moon (bottom). It's simpler for people to understand the philosophy by talking about the sun (Yang), moon (Yin) and universe. After observing the universe, ancient Chinese found that the universe is changing every day. Although it changes every day, it also has seasonal and annual cycles. From these cycles the unchanging rules are created.

 

By observing the sky, recording the Dipper's positions and watching the shadow of the Sun from an 8-foot (Chinese measurement) pole, ancient Chinese determined the four directions. The direction of sunrise is the East; the direction of sunset is the West; the direction of the shortest shadow is the South and the direction of the longest shadow is the North. At night, the direction of the Polaris star is the North.

 

 

 

They noticed the seasonal changes. When the Dipper points to the East, it's spring; when the Dipper points to the South, it's summer; when the Dipper points to the West, it's fall; when the Dipper points to the North, it's winter.

 

 

When observing the cycle of the Sun, ancient Chinese simply used a pole about 8 feet long, posted at right angles to the ground and recorded positions of the shadow. Then they found the length of a year is around 365.25 days. They even divided the year's cycle into 24 Segments, including the Vernal Equinox, Autumnal Equinox, Summer Solstice and Winter Solstice, using the sunrise and Dipper positions.

 

They used six concentric circles, marked the 24-Segment points, divided the circles into 24 sectors and recorded the length of shadow every day. The shortest shadow is found on the day of Summer Solstice. The longest shadow is found on the day of Winter Solstice. After connecting each lines and dimming Yin Part from Summer Solstice to Winter Solstice, the Sun chart looks like below. The ecliptic angle 23 26' 19'' of the Earth can be seen in this chart.

 

 

 

The Ecliptic is the Sun's apparent path around the Earth. It's tilted relative to the Earth's equator. The value of obliquity of the Ecliptic is around 23 26' 19'' in year 2000.

By rotating the Sun chart and positioning the Winter Solstice at the bottom, it will look like this . The light color area which indicates more sunlight is called Yang (Sun). The dark color area has less sunlight (more moonlight) and is called Yin (Moon). Yang is like man. Yin is like woman. Yang wouldn't grow without Yin. Yin couldn't give birth without Yang. Yin is born (begins) at Summer Solstice and Yang is born (begins) at Winter Solstice. Therefore one little circle Yin is marked on the Summer Solstice position. Another little circle Yang is marked on the Winter Solstice position. These two little circles look like two fish eyes.

 

 

In general, the Yin Yang symbol is a Chinese representation of the entire celestial phenomenon. It contains the cycle of Sun, four seasons, 24-Segment Chi, the foundation of the I-Ching and the Chinese calendar.

[Stosh]

Im familiar enough with that stuff

which is why I called it 'protoscience'

Im at a loss as to where to go with that though.

I figure it is accurate as historical fact

but I dont see what quality it has to spur debate,,

 

maybe someone else has curiosity about further

description or explanation

So I yield the floor for that.

Stosh

[zanshin]

I push a ball up a hill It gains potential energy

it rolls down the other side gathering speed

there is transition from potential energy to kinetic energy (forget friction for now)

But there is no energy loss in the system.

 

 

How do you discuss the system in terms of yin and yang ?

 

Like you just said in the quote above, that's how it is.

 

How is yin yang view equally or more informative about the energies involved?

 

What's the best way to analyze physics while you're skiing downhill at 35mph?- as you're doing it, you need to understand what to do so you don't crash.

 

Stosh

Edited July 12, 2012 by zanshin

[Protector]

DUDEDRAGON, that explains nothing

[ChiDragon]

DUDEDRAGON, that explains nothing

 

Yes, that says Yin-Yang, originally, was telling you nothing. It was only a description of a phenomenon. It was not an element nor a force but Yin-Yang are only two categories for to classify different things in the Universe. If it is not one, then it's the other. Thus one is complementary to the other.

[Protector]

If during introduction that was the first thing I saw, I wouldn't understand what's going on

I don't think that explains anything

[ChiDragon]

If during introduction that was the first thing I saw, I wouldn't understand what's going on

I don't think that explains anything

 

That only tells you how the name of Yin-Yang came about. That's all. Yang is the sunlight and Yin is the shadow.

[Protector]

Well that sucks

So did taiji principles come later or did they just click together

Speaking of, the taiji principles seem to be all over tao te ching so there never was any invention except for the picture being drawn with dots by Chen Tuan

[ChiDragon]

Well that sucks

So did taiji principles come later or did they just click together

Speaking of, the taiji principles seem to be all over tao te ching so there never was any invention except for the picture being drawn with dots by Chen Tuan

 

The Tao Te Ching and Tai Ji both came later. Actually the Yin-Yang was written in the Yi Jing at first, then everything in the Chinese history were evolved from the Yi Jing. Yi Jing was all about Yin-Yang. The broken line is the Yin-line and the solid line is the Yang-line. They were used to draw the trigrams.

[joeblast]

Im familiar enough with that stuff

which is why I called it 'protoscience'

Im at a loss as to where to go with that though.

I figure it is accurate as historical fact

but I dont see what quality it has to spur debate,,

 

maybe someone else has curiosity about further

description or explanation

So I yield the floor for that.

Stosh

Imo, a misnomer to say yin and yang are forces. They are relative, causal manifestations, but the key is the relationships thereof. Do you get how the ke/pe ball example can be explained coherently in the theory either way? Relationships are being described, yin is not a force of its own accord and isn't the reason the ball does anything, it describes the relational state of forces. Heads doesn't exist without tails. A sine wave spends as much time above as below. Ergo one cannot speak of yang in the same context as strong nuclear force...but if relating it to gravity or EM, well the context is where the relative yinyanginess comes from. Length scale matters, material composition matters when making the comparisons, ergo there are matrices by which the relative cumulative effects operate, hence 5e. Still on about relationships, patterns...and what is qi, an energetic pattern. We use appropriate matrices to describe the conglomeration of events.

[sunshine]

I'd answer yin yan theory and even more so 5 element theory is an ideal way to view the world. It allows the mind to come up with real world solutions to real world problems. Its a way of strategic thinking that works well. It's not be chemically correct, but if studied gives a dynamic way of looking at and solving problems.

 

thelerner...

 

Ok , possibly , Ill test you out on it.

 

I push a ball up a hill It gains potential energy

it rolls down the other side gathering speed

there is transition from potential energy to kinetic energy (forget friction for now)

But there is no energy loss in the system.

 

I see an issue with the ball getting more active powerful-yang as it speeds up

while becoming lower-weaker-yin, and at the same time it is entirely passive

to gravity throughout.

One can calculate a value for the energy of the ball due to position and speed using science.

 

How do you discuss the system in terms of yin and yang ?

How is yin yang view equally or more informative about the energies involved?

 

Stosh

 

 

Yin Yang and 5 Phase "theory" is a wonderful phaenomenological approach... by observing nature, human interactions etc. things were described in relation to each other and one can indeed utilize these "theories" for "real world" approaches ("an ideal way to view the world")... before arriving at the way we utilize them today there have been many trials... and adaptations of the theories... so the theory was shaped by observation and after that reutilized to describe phenomena...

 

your example is more an interesting example to have in order to make the Yin Yang approach understandable...

 

first of all: I doubt that Taoist would forget the friction involved!

 

pushing up the ball up the hill and the ball then running down is an example of showing why it is said: at the maximum of Yin it becomes Yang (or = Yang begins) and then the ball rolling down we have it speeding up (and you sure know that if the ball with speed would hit a car it would do so with much more destructive force then the ball without and that would equate to Yang becoming more strong -"more Yang"- in the process of rolling down... but then: keeping friction in mind the ball at one time becomes less speedy -more slow- again and we see the beginning of Yin again...

 

now: when the ball comes to a stand still one might be led to start a discussion if this then is maximum Yin or actually Balance between Yin & Yang... I assume there would be arguments for both...

 

just a thought

 

 

H

[thelerner]

I'd answer yin yan theory and even more so 5 element theory is an ideal way to view the world. It allows the mind to come up with real world solutions to real world problems. Its a way of strategic thinking that works well. It's not be chemically correct, but if studied gives a dynamic way of looking at and solving problems.

 

thelerner...

 

Ok , possibly , Ill test you out on it.

 

I push a ball up a hill It gains potential energy

it rolls down the other side gathering speed

there is transition from potential energy to kinetic energy (forget friction for now)

But there is no energy loss in the system.

 

I see an issue with the ball getting more active powerful-yang as it speeds up

while becoming lower-weaker-yin, and at the same time it is entirely passive

to gravity throughout.

One can calculate a value for the energy of the ball due to position and speed using science.

 

How do you discuss the system in terms of yin and yang ?

How is yin yang view equally or more informative about the energies involved?

 

Stosh

What do you want me to say? Wonder why you're in outer space pushing a ball up a frictionless incline? Give you a taoist formula for for relevant coefficients?

Yeah, okay. You win, I'll never convince you its a worthwhile tool for creating strategy and understanding interactions in the world. I go yin. But you loose a valuable way of thinking and living, perhaps no loss.

[zerostao]

What do you want me to say? Wonder why you're in outer space pushing a ball up a frictionless incline? Give you a taoist formula for for relevant coefficients?

Yeah, okay. You win, I'll never convince you its a worthwhile tool for creating strategy and understanding interactions in the world. I go yin. But you loose a valuable way of thinking and living, perhaps no loss.

 

didnt Lao Tzu say that yin always wins?

[Stosh]

didnt Lao Tzu say that yin always wins?

He might have ,

but since winning and losing are subjective illusions

and below the consideration of a sage ...

It wouldnt be the best quote to coin

 

Besides that I was under the impression

yin or yang never gets to hold sway indefinitely

 

Non 'Laoists' like me might say

The sun shines equally on the wicked and the just

it has no bias, so you are in error about the dominance of yin

 

Imo

Stosh

[Stosh]

What do you want me to say? Wonder why you're in outer space pushing a ball up a frictionless incline? Give you a taoist formula for for relevant coefficients?

Yeah, okay. You win, I'll never convince you its a worthwhile tool for creating strategy and understanding interactions in the world. I go yin. But you loose a valuable way of thinking and living, perhaps no loss.

If it was in outer space there would be no up and no down either

My challenge was that you could demonstrate whatever it was that

yin and yang theory had over modern science

If you want to include air resistance and friction with the ground go right ahead

I figure the quantification value of coefficients is more in the realm of science

 

But you can draw up your own scenario for me to puzzle over

Im willing to go along with an alternate plan

but If you are just going to say you are stumped

and that there is no way that you can demonstrate even in theory!

regarding the advantage you attest to for yin yang and the elements

I dont consider it fair play to continue to not concede the point thoroughly

but ..

Sunshine was doing pretty good there

(I still think science has him-her stumped with quantitative assessments.. but) dont give up so easy !

there's all the element theory and all that stuff that Chidragon posted

FIND SOMETHING

 

Stosh

Edited July 13, 2012 by Stosh

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 78

1. There is nothing in the world that is softer than water.

2. But when it strikes any rigid object nothing can beat it.

4. There is nothing that can replace it.

5. The weak vanquishes the strong.

6. The softness vanquishes the hardness.

The weak and the softness are the Yin-attribute.

[Stosh]

Chapter 78

1. There is nothing in the world that is softer than water.

2. But when it strikes any rigid object nothing can beat it.

4. There is nothing that can replace it.

5. The weak vanquishes the strong.

6. The softness vanquishes the hardness.

The weak and the softness are the Yin-attribute.

 

This where I diverge from the traditional view

but only because it is one sided and there is a missing half

 

Yes water can wear down a stone

but when the water runs out the stone remains

 

Circumstance decides whether it is better to be big or small

to be fast or slow to be yielding or unyeilding , light or dark etc

My evidence, ?,,

Look at any species of animal, the group conforms to a basic format

There are optimal sizes and characters depending on the situation.

Be too big and you cant keep yourself fed

Be to small and you cant keep yourself fed.

 

Im not challenging what the words you looked at say

I am challenging the idea that the bias is the Taos

 

Human beings may function more cooperatively-effectively

as a placid herd, rather than solo hunters , but

The big Tao doesnt bias for that.

 

Stosh

[zerostao]

my "yin always wins" was a kinda poke, tongue in cheek to thelerners response.

yin and yang are relative to each other and interchangeable.

your yin could be my yang at the same moment in time.

 

"The big Tao doesnt bias for that." how can you be certain?

the I Ching ,(( i thinks)) also does call yin and yang forces.

the I Ching is far a more perfect explanation than some faith based science, like quantum physics.

that is so 20th century already.

[Stosh]

my "yin always wins" was a kinda poke, tongue in cheek to thelerners response.

yin and yang are relative to each other and interchangeable.

your yin could be my yang at the same moment in time.

 

"The big Tao doesnt bias for that." how can you be certain?

the I Ching ,(( i thinks)) also does call yin and yang forces.

the I Ching is far a more perfect explanation than some faith based science, like quantum physics.

that is so 20th century already.

Ohh, I get your humor now

 

But I think it is rather common that folks would take it as a true thing

for instance

Everybody dies ... therefore there is cessation of activity

Yin "won"

 

or thermodynamics-wise, events follow an energy gradient

to the situation of greatest entropy

(This is the thingie I was pushing folks to think of.)

But ..

Living forces tap the flow of energy toward entropy

and use it to multipy themselves

there is an inherent energy loss of about 25 percent)

EX

( you eat food , waste some energy converting to ATP bonds ,

but you go on and make kids or do things)

Life defies conventional entropy

 

Whereas a watch (unliving) just winds down with the gradient.

 

Big Tao not biased ? ???

How could it be biased if your yin could be my Yang?

 

I see them as diametric polarities connected by a continuum too.

 

IChing may call them forces ,but terminology is difficult on its own

,how would you describe gravity effects

before gravitational theory was concocted ??

I dont know HOW I would explain why things go "down".

But I might say there was a FORCE doing it.

Science now understands gravity to be an effect of the warpage of space time

Is that still a force ?? I wouldnt call it such except its a lot

easier just to continue to use the terminology which has proven functional

for several hundred years.

 

Quantum physics is very young and can see scepticism

about it as very reasonable ..

At the same time ,,its the world of the super small

so small its irrelevant,,,,

until they make semiconductor chips which

bring the effects up to the scale of our world..

I see as a subject for the experts in it to work with.

Thats their shtick.

 

Stosh

Edited July 16, 2012 by Stosh

[ChiDragon]

This where I diverge from the traditional view

but only because it is one sided and there is a missing half

 

Yes water can wear down a stone

but when the water runs out the stone remains

 

Circumstance decides whether it is better to be big or small

to be fast or slow to be yielding or unyeilding , light or dark etc

My evidence, ?,,

Look at any species of animal, the group conforms to a basic format

There are optimal sizes and characters depending on the situation.

Be too big and you cant keep yourself fed

Be to small and you cant keep yourself fed.

 

Im not challenging what the words you looked at say

I am challenging the idea that the bias is the Taos

 

Human beings may function more cooperatively-effectively

as a placid herd, rather than solo hunters , but

The big Tao doesnt bias for that.

 

Stosh

 

The point Laot Tze wanted to make was that:

5. The weak vanquishes the strong.

6. The softness vanquishes the hardness.

 

Did he make his point....??? I think he did. Even you'd said so yourself.

"Yes water can wear down a stone

but when the water runs out the stone remains"

 

Please don't forgot the water will recycle itself and return from the rain to haunt the rock again; but the argument here was not what remains in the aftermath. It was did the water wear out the rock or not which it did. IMO.

 

When we talk about Yin-Yang, both have to be existed. In this case, the soft water is Yin; the hard rock is Yang. Thus Yin overcomes Yang.

 

 

PS...

The Yi Jing had never called Yin-Yang are forces. By observation, Yang is the sunlight on the south side of the hill; and Yin is the shadow on the north side of the hill. Therefore, the shadow always stays with the light which cannot be separated from each other. That is why people say that: "if there is Yin, then there is Yang and vice versa." Nothing can make them apart.

 

When an analogy was made, just be sure that both Yin-Yang are present in the analogy. Otherwise, it will not hold water....!!!

Edited July 16, 2012 by ChiDragon

[thelerner]

 

But you can draw up your own scenario for me to puzzle over

Im willing to go along with an alternate plan

but If you are just going to say you are stumped

and that there is no way that you can demonstrate even in theory!

regarding the advantage you attest to for yin yang and the elements

I dont consider it fair play to continue to not concede the point thoroughly

but ..

Stosh

Again what I was going for was..discussing it with you ain't worth it. The ability to think strategically is a plus, a gift, a way to make better decisions. Its not the only way, but if you think it doesn't make sense- then don't. If one day you want to dive in you could go to a Taoist or Eastern site, you could pick up a good book like 'The Web That Has no Weaver', which does a good job of showing the interconnections of element theory in every day life. Asking about how it relates to balls on planes means (to me) your mind is closed.

 

All I can say is, in every area of my life where I make decisions, knowledge of the 5 element theory acts like a flow chart directing me towards efficient solutions. It as useful and indeed compliments any conscious and unconscious statistical models I make because it leads to dynamic solutions to changing conditions instead of focusing on a static model.

[Stosh]

ChiDragon

The point Laot Tze wanted to make was that:

5. The weak vanquishes the strong.

6. The softness vanquishes the hardness.

 

Stosh

If the weak vanquishes the strong what sense at all does it make to call something strong?

if a person smashes a rock with a harder rock how, in this situation , did the soft rock

overcome the hard rock?

 

Did he make his point....??? I think he did. Even you'd said so yourself.

"Yes water can wear down a stone

but when the water runs out the stone remains"

 

How is what I said an example illustating your point?

Is it not clear that I am literally saying that the other side of the coin

has plenty enough validty as well?

One may outlast the other,thats not biased, its that simple

 

Your visualization of the constant river , replenished by rain ,

is only a segment of the entirety of rock and water interactions.

And so it is only a cherrypicked example.

When the earths core solidifies and the magnetic field goes away

and the planet is left at the mercy of the solar wind ,

what is going to remain is a dried out barren ball of rock in space

like the moon.

PS...

The Yi Jing had never called Yin-Yang are forces. By observation, Yang is the sunlight on the south side of the hill; and Yin is the shadow on the north side of the hill. Therefore, the shadow always stays with the light which cannot be separated from each other. That is why people say that: "if there is Yin, then there is Yang and vice versa." Nothing can make them apart.

 

It is as equally reasonable or unreasonable to say that the two are never together ,

as it is to say they are never apart

 

When an analogy was made, just be sure that both Yin-Yang are present in the analogy. Otherwise, it will not hold water....!!!

 

Ok , but I dont see where I diverged from that,( if you mean it half serious.)

Stosh

Edited July 16, 2012 by Stosh

[Stosh]

Again what I was going for was..discussing it with you ain't worth it. The ability to think strategically is a plus, a gift, a way to make better decisions. Its not the only way, but if you think it doesn't make sense- then don't. If one day you want to dive in you could go to a Taoist or Eastern site, you could pick up a good book like 'The Web That Has no Weaver', which does a good job of showing the interconnections of element theory in every day life. Asking about how it relates to balls on planes means (to me) your mind is closed.

 

All I can say is, in every area of my life where I make decisions, knowledge of the 5 element theory acts like a flow chart directing me towards efficient solutions. It as useful and indeed compliments any conscious and unconscious statistical models I make because it leads to dynamic solutions to changing conditions instead of focusing on a static model.

You said this originally,,

"This topic is a good one and it was mixed up

with a Roman Catholic thread."

 

So I was participating and was giving all the

opportunity I could think of for you for you to augment

your assertions with some kind of example underlining it

for consideration.

Yes I do already have opinions but that doesnt mean that

they couldnt be swayed.

They just arent swayed with zero rationale , I am giving my

rationale for all the points I am holding to.

 

But no, You dont have to persist in trying to benefit me with your

views, (thats your attempted gift to me)its up to you.

 

 

Stosh