Old neigong manual

[宁]

so. i think we can agree on the fact that for most of the neigong practitioners, at some point it becomes pretty obvious that the ultimate purpose of the training has to do with karma, transcendence, and afterlife. it's pretty clear that they can't count on qigong for that, as all bodily related energies will vanish as soon as their container withers and dies. at what stage during a neigong practitioners training is he able to take with him the fruits of his training into the afterlife. do the chords of karma need to be severed before that?

 

this is an open question, feel free to respond if you feel so.

 

thanks!

 

E.

[YMWong]

so. i think we can agree on the fact that for most of the neigong practitioners, at some point it becomes pretty obvious that the ultimate purpose of the training has to do with karma, transcendence, and afterlife. it's pretty clear that they can't count on qigong for that, as all bodily related energies will vanish as soon as their container withers and dies. at what stage during a neigong practitioners training is he able to take with him the fruits of his training into the afterlife. do the chords of karma need to be severed before that?

 

Simple death in Daoism is a form of immortality, the lowest, so one becomes a "ghost (immortal)" 鬼仙.

In this case, as the pratictioner has not reached a "pure yang" state, his "hun" and "po" spirits will dissolve and he won't be able to pursue his practice in the afterlife.

 

As long as a "pure yang" state is achieved, which can be done at different levels, one will be in a condition to eventually pursue practice and continue on his path if he is willing to.

The are many levels, an overview of which you can find here http://www.hudong.com/wiki/仙人#7, which gives birth to different states so different positions "in heaven" (or wherever that is )

 

Best

 

YM

[寒月 Hanyue]

The term qigong has been widely used to cover all "energetic" practices, including in most cases "athletic-only" ones, since the 50s but it is not a new terms.

I have a few manuals dealing with "qigong" (in the title) from Republican era and many others which discuss "qigong" in their content, long before the 50s then.

 

Historically speaking, as everything else in Daoism and in the Chinese Tradition in general, there is not ONE single interpretation of a subject or a term but different schools see and believe in different ideas often at the exact opposite side of the spectrum. This does not mean that "everything works" or that everything is true, of course, but schools with a history of accomplished masters can practically testify to the goodness of their theories/believes/practices.

 

Nowadays, for as much as it is my experience, most schools and traditions labelled as "qigong" transmit either a void kind of gymnastic or at best a form of 'tuna' which is meant to balance the flow of "qi" already existing in the pratictioners' body. No matter what the advertisement say, this is used at best to produce balance of the body functions and therefore health.

 

The term "neigong" has now been used in place of "qigong" in many schools because it sells better, but in the vast majority of cases they still teach some kind of qigong.

This practice should allow for the absorption of "qi" from outside and the usage of it to strengthen the body, the mind or to be used for any purpose the pratictioner has as its goal.

 

Needless to says there is some little overlapping between the two practices but in general they are very different. A typical "neigong" usually looks like the practice you can see on the documentary "secrets of the yogis" or whatever it is called (I think there is a thread open here on Thetaobums).

 

Finally, for what concerns your question about the possibility for qigong and neigong to complement each other, it very much depends on the specific practice but in general I would say no, they don't. As a matter of fact many or most (actual) qigong can be practiced together since they work energies already existing in the body. Neigong, on the other side, creates, builds and generate a new kind of energy from the outside. The energy thus created has a "frequency" and characteristics peculiar to the system (the way it is created) so mixing this system with another would create huge problems as you would be mixing TWO different kind of energies.

 

Best

 

YM

 

I think this post should be a sticky!!

 

It is a clear, lucid and concise account and explanation of the difference of qigong and neigong. Explaining why so many arguments occur between people saying "no, thats wrong, its this....blah blah blah".

 

Thank you

 

All the best,

[tumoessence]

For those eventually interested our new issue 6 of JOCMS is now available with the full translation on an early republican era neigong illustrated instructional manual.

 

www.martialstudies.com.hk

 

Best

 

YM

Do you have4 a table of contents for the various issues?

[ChiDragon]

...

Edited June 30, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

I think this post should be a sticky!!

 

It is a clear, lucid and concise account and explanation of the difference of qigong and neigong. Explaining why so many arguments occur between people saying "no, thats wrong, its this....blah blah blah".

Thank you

 

All the best,

 

Yes, I would like to hear that too.

It is not the difference of qigong and neigong, but helps.

However, it would be more helpful if we can hear the difference between Waigong(外功) and Neigong(內功).

Edited June 30, 2012 by ChiDragon

[YMWong]

However, it would be more helpful if we can hear the difference between Waigong(外功) and Neigong(內功)[/b].

 

As I explain in the article, the difference is cleared in the classical passage 外練筋骨皮，內練一口氣 "Externally practice tendons, bones and skin. Internally practice a mouthful of breath/qi".

 

YM

Edited June 30, 2012 by YMWong

[ChiDragon]

As I explain in the article, the difference is cleared in the classical passage 外練筋骨皮，內練一口氣 "Externally practice tendons, bones and skin. Internally practice a mouthful of breath/qi".

 

YM

"內練一口氣 (Internally practice a mouthful of breath/qi.)"

I am glad that the original concept reveals itself that 氣(qi) is breath.

 

May I add:

1. Externally practice was for the tendons, bones and skin.

 

2. Internal practice, besides a mouthful of breath, it was mainly for the internal organs. Otherwise, they wouldn't call it 'internal' for nothing. There is still a little more needs to be addressed for emphasizing the "internal practice". Perhaps some other time.

[YMWong]

"內練一口氣 (Internally practice a mouthful of breath/qi.)"

I am glad that the original concept reveals itself that 氣(qi) is breath.

 

No, Qi is not "breath" but the Chinese character for "Qi" has ALSO the meaning of breath hence my translation

 

So "qi" is simply "qi" because there is no English equivalent, and "breath" is one of the meanings that it entails but there are so many others

 

May I add:

1. Externally practice was for the tendons, bones and skin.

 

2. Internal practice, besides a mouthful of breath, it was mainly for the internal organs. Otherwise, they wouldn't call it 'internal' for nothing. There is still a little more needs to be addressed for emphasizing the "internal practice". Perhaps some other time.

 

Of course you can add whatever you feel fit but that is not what the original Chinese say

 

Moreover, "internal" is relative and it does not necessarily refer to the internal organs.

As a matter of fact, in most cases the "nei/internal" of "neigong" does not refer to the internal organs but to a different (internals) structure which does not have a precise equivalent in modern anatomy.

By the same tokens in fact, 筋 "Jin", which I have simply translated as "tendons", means much more than that and actually also entails the muscles.

 

But a complete translation would need explanations and it would not be equally efficient/direct.

 

YM

Edited July 1, 2012 by YMWong

[ChiDragon]

Boy...!!! Isn't this confusing.....

[ChiDragon]

內練一口氣 "Internally practice a mouthful of breath/qi".

 

YM

 

I think there was something missing and not complete in the thought of "Practice a mouthful of breath". Based on your understanding, what is behind the "internal practice" besides a mouthful of breath....???

Edited July 1, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

"內練一口氣 (Internally practice a mouthful of breath/qi.)"

 

I think this is the best time and place to clear up the definition of 氣(Chi).

 

"一口氣" in the phrase, linguistically,

The worse translation would be "a mouthful of energy".

 

The best translation is "a mouthful of breath". Thus it implicates that Chi in Chi Kung(氣功) is breathing. Chi Kung is the method of breathing. With more emphasis on the method, it would be the "ultimate method of breathing".

 

內練一口氣: The best translation for this phrase would be:

Neigong is to practice in breathing.

 

 

 

PS...

For those who wish to continue to believe that Chi or Qi as energy is fine. Eventually, that is what it was at the end but not before you breathe.

Edited July 1, 2012 by ChiDragon

[thetaoiseasy]

^^^^^ not sure if serious..

 

I think this is the best time and place to clear up the definition of 氣(Chi).

 

"一口氣" in the phrase, linguistically,

The worse translation would be "a mouthful of energy".

 

The best translation is "a mouthful of breath". Thus it implicates that Chi in Chi Kung(氣功) is breathing. Chi Kung is the method of breathing. With more emphasis on the method, it would be the "ultimate method of breathing".

 

內練一口氣: The best translation for this phrase would be:

Neigong is to practice in breathing.

 

 

 

PS...

For those who wish to continue to believe that Chi or Qi as energy is fine. Eventually, that is what it was at the end but not before you breathe.

[steve]

No, Qi is not "breath" but the Chinese character for "Qi" has ALSO the meaning of breath hence my translation

 

So "qi" is simply "qi" because there is no English equivalent, and "breath" is one of the meanings that it entails but there are so many others

 

 

 

Of course you can add whatever you feel fit but that is not what the original Chinese say

 

Moreover, "internal" is relative and it does not necessarily refer to the internal organs.

As a matter of fact, in most cases the "nei/internal" of "neigong" does not refer to the internal organs but to a different (internals) structure which does not have a precise equivalent in modern anatomy.

By the same tokens in fact, 筋 "Jin", which I have simply translated as "tendons", means much more than that and actually also entails the muscles.

 

But a complete translation would need explanations and it would not be equally efficient/direct.

 

YM

I agree with the YMWong's comments here and will offer the following information for those who are interested -

炁 (reference - http://www.chinalanguage.com/dictionaries/?pageID=CharDict/View:pinyin&query=7081).

According to my ShiYe, this is the original character for Qi and can only be found in very old Daoist writings.

It is now obsolete and has been replaced in modern use with 氣.

The intention of the old character was to distinguish Qi from Air or Breath which contain Qi but also include other things (oxygen, nitrogen, impurities, the respiratory process, and so on).

 

Neigong goes beyond breathing. It goes beyond the internal organs.

In internal practices, we are developing skill with using the Yi - 意.

We are experiencing the internal universe in a Daoist "energetic" paradigm.

One can argue that we are discovering that universe or creating it - I think both perspectives have merit and are applicable.

I used quotes because use of the English word energy tends to create confusion.

People tend to equate Qi to electromagnetic energy which I think is potentially misleading and inaccurate.

Certainly, there may be a relationship between the two but it is not something that has been adequately demonstrated IMO hence the quotes...

 

There are many different applications and exercises which vary from school to school.

The emphasis of neigong is generally on cultivating the Yi and learning how to use it to clarify, guide, and utilize the Qi and eventually taking that to more advanced levels involving transformation of jing, qi, and shen and so forth.

On the other hand, the emphasis of qigong is generally working with the breath in coordination with physical movement.

Here the benefits are very much connected with the internal organs but less directly related to the "energetic" structure that is developed/discovered through neigong.

 

Certainly this distinction can be vague in certain systems and there is overlap but in my experience it works pretty well as a rule of thumb.

[YMWong]

I agree with the YMWong's comments here and will offer the following information for those who are interested -

炁 (reference - http://www.chinalanguage.com/dictionaries/?pageID=CharDict/View:pinyin&query=7081).

According to my ShiYe, this is the original character for Qi and can only be found in very old Daoist writings.

It is now obsolete and has been replaced in modern use with 氣.

The intention of the old character was to distinguish Qi from Air or Breath which contain Qi but also include other things (oxygen, nitrogen, impurities, the respiratory process, and so on).

 

Not really, Steve

 

In the old scriptures both characters are found and 炁 is used to indicate "pre-natal qi" while 氣 usually refer to "post-natal qi"

 

YM

[YMWong]

^^^^^ not sure if serious..

 

Maybe

 

Anyway, of course "qi" is not (only) breathing or air!

 

Qi is everywhere, including inanimated objects like stones and it is not strickly related to breathing in qigong or neigong practice either, as for instance yin-qi is gathered most commonly by contact from the ground.

 

Best

 

YM

[宁]

Not really, Steve

 

In the old scriptures both characters are found and 炁 is used to indicate "pre-natal qi" while 氣 usually refer to "post-natal qi"

 

YM

 

i heard some people translating that character as : 'no fire' , as in 'a non-fiery qi, not burning, neutral, balanced'

 

do we have this kind of qi in nature? where? how can human beings get in contact with it?

 

i read the article about the 'classification of immortals', i remember reading about it not long ago in Eva Wong's translation. however, i'm not sure what 'pure yang' means. can you provide some refference?

 

thanks!

 

E.

 

ps: i understand that 'transmission' of a [neigong etc] lineage requires yuanfen, or fate/destiny, without which the transmission cannot take place. is it a specific type of yuanfen? i remember [the only case of a westerner seeking a real transmision that i am aware of] the case with kosta danaos, he was voluntarely seeking knowledge, but at the same time the master dreamt about kosta looking for him. would that qualify as the specific required type of yuanfen? i myself am not sure what to think, looking at the result, that is, in the end their connection ended in an unfortunate way. of course i just provide a case as an example, it's hard to estimate what really happened.

 

j chang also mentioned that there are universal laws that allow for such transmision, especially beyond a basic level, to occur. since all these things have been already figured out, i think we might as well learn about it, to avoid fooling ourselves, and letting others fool us.

 

sorry if i raise too many questions, but your answers kinda determine me to continue to ask, haha. i must say, as the others also noticed, the answers are very clear, and cut through alot of confusion. that, in turn, has the effect of putting less and less time into things that haven't any positive outcome, and leaves more and more time to experience and enjoy everyday life, as deliciously complicated as it is.

for which i am very thankful.

Edited July 2, 2012 by 宁

[YMWong]

i heard some people translating that character as : 'no fire' , as in 'a non-fiery qi, not burning, neutral, balanced'

 

do we have this kind of qi in nature? where? how can human beings get in contact with it?

 

Of course we not only have it in nature but is a prominent kind of 'qi' which exists inside everyone of us!

 

Let me try to oversimplify the whole 'qi' system so that you may understand how it works: we derive our 'qi' from a "prenatal qi" (also called 元氣 or better spelled 元炁) that is transmitted to us from our parents (and "the past" in general, which includes karma) that is linked to our 精(essence) and is stored in our kidneys.

After birth, we start to absorb two kinds of 'qi' from the air (breathing, which is called 清氣 and is stored in the lungs) and that coming from food and water (that is usually called 谷氣 or 水穀精氣 and it is stored in the spleen). These two 'qi' combines into 宗氣 "zongqi" (central qi) which than combines in turn with "prenatal qi" to generate 正氣 "zhengqi". This final "zhengqi" is the 'qi' that most people speaks about, which flows in the body as 營氣 "yingqi" (nutritive qi, which allows for the body, the organs and their functions to work properly) and on the body surface as 衛氣 (defensive qi).

 

Is that more clear now?

 

i read the article about the 'classification of immortals', i remember reading about it not long ago in Eva Wong's translation. however, i'm not sure what 'pure yang' means. can you provide some refference?

 

All the 'qi' we have discussed above are made of two components, you can imagine that 'qi' as a molecule made of two atoms or like the negative and positive parts of elecricity. Pure Yang means removing one part of the couple and leaving only the other.

 

It would be like being able to devide a magnet in two by removing the negative side.

 

Sounds tough eh ?

 

ps: i understand that 'transmission' of a [neigong etc] lineage requires yuanfen, or fate/destiny, without which the transmission cannot take place. is it a specific type of yuanfen? i remember [the only case of a westerner seeking a real transmision that i am aware of] the case with kosta danaos, he was voluntarely seeking knowledge, but at the same time the master dreamt about kosta looking for him. would that qualify as the specific required type of yuanfen? i myself am not sure what to think, looking at the result, that is, in the end their connection ended in an unfortunate way. of course i just provide a case as an example, it's hard to estimate what really happened.

 

Yuanfen, in the chinese way of the World, is present everywhere.

One get to know a girl and likes her, they may get together if there is "yuanfen".

They can then live happily ever after or split again, which means that "yuanfen" is finished, changed or was never there is first place.

 

This is just the way things are no?

 

j chang also mentioned that there are universal laws that allow for such transmision, especially beyond a basic level, to occur. since all these things have been already figured out, i think we might as well learn about it, to avoid fooling ourselves, and letting others fool us.

 

There is not much to "know" because, unless one is a fortune teller and can see the future , the future is made by us day by day. There are things that are beyond our grasp, of course, as in everything but at the end of the day it is still all in our hands.

In chinese they say 命不在天而在人手中 people's destiny is not written in the Sky but it is in their hands.

 

If you plan to travel to Rome and you decide to get there by plane, when you discover the airline is on strike you can either cry about your unlucky destiny or simply get on a train. In this case getting their by plane was not your "yuanfen" but you still can get there as destiny is in your hands, so just change the road/tool and keep the destination.

 

sorry if i raise too many questions, but your answers kinda determine me to continue to ask, haha. i must say, as the others also noticed, the answers are very clear, and cut through alot of confusion. that, in turn, has the effect of putting less and less time into things that haven't any positive outcome, and leaves more and more time to experience and enjoy everyday life, as deliciously complicated as it is.

for which i am very thankful.

 

Well said

 

Best

 

YM

[宁]

yes, it's more clear

 

[of course] i'll be back with more questions, haha.

 

Best

 

E.

[ChiDragon]

Yuanfen, in the chinese way of the World, is present everywhere.

One get to know a girl and likes her, they may get together if there is "yuanfen".

They can then live happily ever after or split again, which means that "yuanfen" is finished, changed or was never there is first place.

 

緣份 (yuanfen): Serendipity; Kismet; happenstance; it was meant to be; predestined

Edited July 2, 2012 by ChiDragon

[hieronimus]

緣份 (yuanfen): Serendipity; Kismet; happenstance; it was meant to be; predestined

 

Hi ChiDragon, is there a special reason why you write in size 5 and 6?

[宁]

Would be interested in hearing more.

 

basically it seems that you can't be a volunteer in these matters, it happens, as in sh*t happens, or not. if you're looking for it actively, you're looking for a specific something, and you're ready to receive that specific something and nothing else. hence the impossibility of receiving the accurate transmission, 'as it is'.

at least that's how i understood it, more or less.

 

that's why now i'm opened to anything/everything, what helped me in that direction is that, anyway, the features of [a] training that i found out about were not what i would imagine they would be like. but it made so much sense. in other words, you can't really anticipate anything in this regard, when it comes to authentic stuff. and i'm more interested in receiving the real thing, as it is, whatever it is like, than pursuing my own ideas. it matches the specifics of my real needs as a human being, and not what i think i need, which sometimes can be two different things.

 

otherwise, is like some people here do: they ask questions to which they think they already hold the answer to. which is kind of cool in a way, but kind of boring in the long run, eh?

[steve]

Not really, Steve

 

In the old scriptures both characters are found and 炁 is used to indicate "pre-natal qi" while 氣 usually refer to "post-natal qi"

 

YM

Interesting, thanks.

[ChiDragon]

Hi ChiDragon, is there a special reason why you write in size 5 and 6?

 

Not really! The only reason I did that was to balance the sizes to for the eyes.

 

Otherwise, they would look like this in size 2:

緣份 (yuanfen): Serendipity; Kismet; happenstance; it was meant to be; predestined

[ChiDragon]

Moreover, "internal" is relative and it does not necessarily refer to the internal organs.

As a matter of fact, in most cases the "nei/internal" of "neigong" does not refer to the internal organs but to a different (internals) structure which does not have a precise equivalent in modern anatomy.

By the same tokens in fact, 筋 "Jin", which I have simply translated as "tendons", means much more than that and actually also entails the muscles.

 

But a complete translation would need explanations and it would not be equally efficient/direct.

 

YM

 

在《現代漢語詞典》中，內功的解釋是鍛煉身體內部器官的功夫；外功的解釋是鍛煉筋、骨、皮的功夫。 其實在我國古代，武術是沒有明確的內功、外功之分的。 直到明末，黃宗羲、黃百家父子提出內家拳，才有了內家拳和外家拳的分別。 到了清乾隆年間，萇乃週將武術中的健身養生和技擊應用分開，大家才形成了內功和外功的概念。 但是不論是少林還是武當都注重內外兼修，只不過是相對而言，一個為外，一個為內。

 

內功的修煉通常就是氣功的練習（內練一口氣），講究呼吸吐納，多用腹式呼吸法，精神集中，循序漸進，從而達到鍛煉身體內部器官的目的。 現在很多老年人練習的體育運動就是這個道理；武術中可以提高耐力、戰鬥力和極強的自我保護作用等。 外功的修煉一般就是指抗擊打能力和體表硬度的鍛煉，有時也有攻擊力的鍛煉，比如鐵砂掌、插沙、打狗皮袋等，從而達到鍛煉筋、骨、皮的目的。 武術中可以提高體力、外部保護作用等。

 

As I explain in the article, the difference is cleared in the classical passage 外練筋骨皮，內練一口氣 "Externally practice tendons, bones and skin. Internally practice a mouthful of breath/qi".

 

YM

What do you think of this...???

The External practice corresponds to the saying about the tendons, bones and skin. However, the part on "neigong" contradicts of what you said it "does not refer to the internal organs but to a different (internals) structure which does not have a precise equivalent in modern anatomy."

 

Ref: 內功與外功(External and Internal Gong)

Edited July 2, 2012 by ChiDragon