Free will

[Crures]

Do you think we have free will?

 

On the one hand I think we have not, because we never choose our thoughts, the things we apparantly like, our emotions. They just appear. We could be just wittnesses of a story that has been determined already.

On the other hand, we can choose to do things the way we don't like it, and despite negative emotions or the emotion of fear still do something.

But that's because we want it, and that's the point - is this under our control? Is our will part of us, or from somewhere else? This question has bothered me a long time already, and I know there may not be a definitive answer. Still, I'm curious about your opinions.

 

Greetings and not knowing whether I had no choice of writing this,

 

Crures

[steve]

I've seen some well designed neurophysiological research that shows the following.

When we decide to do something (reach for a glass), the neuromuscular system has already gone through changes to facilitate that activity. The suggestion is that we become aware of a "choice" to perform a given activity after the body has already prepared to do it. Interesting stuff.

[Fū Yue]

our will is free, so we cannot possess it. it is the great possession, so the desire has already been fulfilled and there is no need to control anything.

[Protector]

Free will

Destiny

Both

Neither

The collective

Ability to distinguish them

Everything else that is out of reach

 

We have all that

[KoffeeKommando]

Go here and read. Months of material:

 

http://www.egodeath.com/

 

This section especially:

http://www.egodeath.com/#_Determinism_and_Transcendence

 

Deluded free will vs. transcendent free will

 

Felis wrote:

 

>And yet in the Valentinian model, the post-salvific model still has the Psychics under the rulership of a just demiurge and a set of Laws, implying that they will continue to retain freewill,

 

No one retains freewill. No one has ever had free will (as ordinarily defined) -- not before the fall, and not after redemption. Psychics don't have freewill; they have the *delusion of* freewill, and their worldmodel is based around the deluded assumption of freewill. They continue to retain the *delusion of* freewill. The delusion of freewill is evil.

 

The lower thinker assumes evil means morally bad actions by a true responsible moral agent who possesses freewill. The higher thinker redefines all key concepts, and evil is certainly a key concept to be redefined. To the higher thinker, evil is the deluded assumption that we are true responsible moral agents who possess freewill.

 

The higher thinker has mastered two networks of understanding, and thus can play definitional games with the term "evil" and say that "evil has ended" when each person ends their own delusion.

 

>as opposed to partaking of the Will of the divine.

 

We all partake of the Will of the divine: the enlightened do so consciously, and the unenlightened do so unconsciously -- falsely assuming that their own will is sovereignly independent of the will of the divine. The deluded think in terms of working to align their own free will with that of the divine. That is folly, delusion, evil, pride. It is the height of hubris to think that you can align your free will with the will of the divine. Only no-free-will can be righteously aligned with the will of the divine.

 

How is my free will aligned with the divine? By the Knowledge that there is no "my free will". The only free will that is aligned with the will of the divine is the free will recognized as illusion. To try to align your free will with the will of the divine is the greatest sin, the height and core of folly, the devil's way of attempting to gain salvation, the way of the Demiurge.

 

 

Freewillism is a minority view in mystic religion, in Theology, in Philosophy, and in Science, and yet in the popular view, these have ample room for freewillism; those who are not on the inside of one of these fields sees the field in its most freewillist form, because that's how the masses want to see all fields. They look to science, religion, and philosophy with the hope of finding support for freewill and thus for metaphysically independent personal power.

 

Oops, Science is finding out the real deal by accident (as Steve details):

 

"The suggestion is that we become aware of a "choice" to perform a given activity after the body has already prepared to do it."

 

The masses are gonna freak out....there goes the neighborhood!

 

 

Determinism provides greatly increased freedom, in some Stoic or existential practical sense. Determinism goes with rationality, and rationality provides greater practical freedom than irrationality.

 

Determinism is a fast way to accomplish an intense kind of crossing-out of the ego, unlike the freewillist view. The essence of the ego delusion is freewill-premised control agency.

 

 

Very good page to read first (If you want some history thrown in):

 

Experiencing Determinism

http://www.egodeath.com/ExperiencingDeterminism.htm

Edited March 29, 2012 by KoffeeKommando

[Marblehead]

Do you think we have free will?

Yes, within limits.

[Apech]

Better to think you have, than to think you have not. But the truth is paradoxically you do but you don't.

 

If you see what I mean.

[thelerner]

Do you think we have free will?

 

Reply One: I choose YES.

 

Matter of fact as I've gotten older and more disciplined I have greater control of my thoughts and emotions. I'm no Spock, but I'm not at the whims of monkey mind either.

 

 

Reply Two: Ain't nothing free about it. Having Free Will means examining the basis of all your premises and actions. Making sure they're sound and your not moving with the cultural herd.

 

A good life is not lived on autopilot. Its all about being true to yourself and figuring out what yourself is.

Edited March 29, 2012 by thelerner

[Jetsun]

Without spiritual work like meditation most of what you do will come from set in patterns or karma, so I think free will is possible but you have to work for it. If you can witness your old patterns from a distance then you have an option not to go along with it, you are given a choice, but without training in this then I don't see how you have free will if you just automatically react out of outdated frameworks all the time.

[KoffeeKommando]

Better to think you have, than to think you have not. But the truth is paradoxically you do but you don't.

 

If you see what I mean.

 

 

 

Determinism provides greatly increased freedom, in some Stoic or existential practical sense. Determinism goes with rationality, and rationality provides greater practical freedom than irrationality.

 

Actually, it's better to *know* you *don't* have freewill. No delusion of the self, by the self.

 

Determinism is a fast way to accomplish an intense kind of crossing-out of the ego, unlike the freewillist view. The essence of the ego delusion is freewill-premised control agency.

 

To think you actually have control agency....is bad.

[Lucky7Strikes]

If you are using your will to cancel out your will, then you are lying to yourself. And most often people who come to an intellectual conclusion about free will fall into this category. It's a trick your mind does to justify indulgences and desires.

 

To be truly without will is to be without possessions. It is also to be free of the mental magnet of the "self", the consistent reference to an "I." It means your actions are just left at their most essential, as simply life itself. And imo, that is very mysterious and cool, that you are alive, and you, this living body and awareness, has wants, preferences, feelings, and most of all, this insistent desire to create and delight in its own creations. Thats why you find life exciting, because it's filled with unknowns.

 

The question of free will or destiny or some delusional story line becomes artificial. When you are in touch with life without engaging in all the filters associated with rigid ideas and paradigms, everything is just this crazy expression of energy. And you will often find that the more true you are, that everything comes to you easily, hence the wish fulfilling jewel is at your hands or so they say.

Edited March 30, 2012 by Lucky7Strikes

[Birch]

I hasz a question!

What would you do if you had it and what would you do if you did not?

Personally, I don't reckon it's an absolute. I have no real idea what "free" is. Certainly I have a will but it is usually either for or against something or other. If it were free, for or against wouldn't be an issue. So i suspect free will is exercised under circumstances that don't call attention to themselves.

Of course, it could all just be a silly semantic put on, like "elephant ice-cream". Obviously absurd, right?

[3bob]

The more a Being is unified the stronger the will since there is less going on that is at cross-purposes...

 

and if a tiny mote of unity has surrendered to the vastness of unity then all cross purposes have ended and that Being is of indomitable will for no cross purposes can undo it, for the root or the Tao is not undone.

[suninmyeyes]

I also feel that you do , but you dont have free will.

I really like what R.Balsekar says about it in this clip,

[3bob]

a Being with the One is free in the One, which does mean not free to go against the One and prevail.

[Crures]

I hasz a question!

What would you do if you had it and what would you do if you did not?

 

If I had it I'd be more conscious of everyday life, I think. To look for opportunities. When I tend to think I do not have free will I think differently about opportunities, I think things like "was this determined, yes or no, and if so, how does it work" and then a long monologue in my mind begins , instead of really using the opportunity well.

 

Without spiritual work like meditation most of what you do will come from set in patterns or karma, so I think free will is possible but you have to work for it. If you can witness your old patterns from a distance then you have an option not to go along with it, you are given a choice, but without training in this then I don't see how you have free will if you just automatically react out of outdated frameworks all the time.

 

I like this answer. It's kind of in the direction in which I am thinking.

[Birch]

The science deals with the very small of it (wrist movements in the study I read).

Whether that's then legit to extrapolate to things like eating or not eating, choice of profession or other stuff is up for grabs at this point.

[steve]

So there is a lot of talk of becoming one with Dao.

What does this mean?

In terms of free will, does it not imply that I merge my "will" with Dao, which transcends me?

So perhaps one aspect of "merging" with Dao is an acknowledgemnt of the illusion of free will.

 

I also liked Jetsun's post a lot. This is at the core of the work I've focused on for years. Lately, I spend a lot of time watching my thoughts. Seeing how they arise, capture my attention - so subtly that I am on the "thought train" before I know it. Once I am aware that I am aware of the thought, it generally fades. To watch how these thoughts come and then guide us in all that we do without really knowing where they come from or that they are even there, most of the time, is enlightening and fascinating.

 

I have a different experience than Michael with respect to thought and emotion. Or at least I am looking at it from a different perspective. As I have gotten older and more deeply into personal investigation, I still do not have any control of what thought arises or when, unless I am in a state of meditation when the thoughts subside for the most part. It seems that something in the environment comes into my field of awareness and sparks a like, dislike, memory, familiarity - some sort of association. This is the kernel of the thought. Then the internal discussion ensues. Over time, I've been able to catch the internal discussion earlier and earlier in the process, even at the level of noticing the association before the thought. It's fascinating work.

 

Similarly, emotions come up before I have any "control" of their content or timing, as a result of a similar process. The "control" comes after the fact which, for me, means that I have no control of the thoughts or emotions, only how I react to them and to what degree I allow them to guide my choices.

 

As Jetsun describes, I think this is the work of becoming a "liberated" human being. Rather than behave based on associations and conditioning, I am aware of the associations and conditioning as I pass through life and can take a step back and make choices based on my values, rather than a conditioned pattern. This is the value of cultivating awareness from moment to moment in our everyday lives.

[三江源]

If you are using your will to cancel out your will, then you are lying to yourself. And most often people who come to an intellectual conclusion about free will fall into this category. It's a trick your mind does to justify indulgences and desires.

 

 

Very astute.

[Cameron]

The way I look at this now is that life may have a more interesting plan for me then this thing called "my will".

 

To give you an example, I had no goal to ever move to Korea. But I lived there for 2 1/2 years and had a great time.

 

Also, as much as I am enjoying my life in China, it wasn't ever a goal of mine to live in China. It's just how things have unfolded for me.

 

Sometimes people ask me what will I do AFTER China.

 

Please, I stopped living my life that way a long time ago

 

That said, I still think it's great to have goals and reach them!

Edited March 30, 2012 by Cameron

[mYTHmAKER]

The way I look at this now is that life may have a more interesting plan for me then this thing called "my will".

 

To give you an example, I had no goal to ever move to Korea. But I lived there for 2 1/2 years and had a great time.

 

Also, as much as I am enjoying my life in China, it wasn't ever a goal of mine to live in China. It's just how things have unfolded for me.

 

Sometimes people ask me what will I do AFTER China.

 

Please, I stopped living my life that way a long time ago

 

That said, I still think it's great to have goals and reach them!

 

Yes if I look back it is always such a surprise to see how i got to my present life.

Never would have thought of it or planned it

[Birch]

So there is a lot of talk of becoming one with Dao.

What does this mean?

In terms of free will, does it not imply that I merge my "will" with Dao, which transcends me?

So perhaps one aspect of "merging" with Dao is an acknowledgemnt of the illusion of free will.

 

I also liked Jetsun's post a lot. This is at the core of the work I've focused on for years. Lately, I spend a lot of time watching my thoughts. Seeing how they arise, capture my attention - so subtly that I am on the "thought train" before I know it. Once I am aware that I am aware of the thought, it generally fades. To watch how these thoughts come and then guide us in all that we do without really knowing where they come from or that they are even there, most of the time, is enlightening and fascinating.

 

I have a different experience than Michael with respect to thought and emotion. Or at least I am looking at it from a different perspective. As I have gotten older and more deeply into personal investigation, I still do not have any control of what thought arises or when, unless I am in a state of meditation when the thoughts subside for the most part. It seems that something in the environment comes into my field of awareness and sparks a like, dislike, memory, familiarity - some sort of association. This is the kernel of the thought. Then the internal discussion ensues. Over time, I've been able to catch the internal discussion earlier and earlier in the process, even at the level of noticing the association before the thought. It's fascinating work.

 

Similarly, emotions come up before I have any "control" of their content or timing, as a result of a similar process. The "control" comes after the fact which, for me, means that I have no control of the thoughts or emotions, only how I react to them and to what degree I allow them to guide my choices.

 

As Jetsun describes, I think this is the work of becoming a "liberated" human being. Rather than behave based on associations and conditioning, I am aware of the associations and conditioning as I pass through life and can take a step back and make choices based on my values, rather than a conditioned pattern. This is the value of cultivating awareness from moment to moment in our everyday lives.

 

Great post Steve. And another great reason to not consider 'scientific' experiments about humans to be applicable to all humans.

[LumaDaylight]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fC5LZAA92k8

 

Bashar, a man who ''channels''...

 

who really knows if we have free will or not. we only have THOUGHTS about the concept itself. "free will" is just a mental projection. perhaps we do and we dont. its the dualistic frame embedded in the nondualistic frame. with that said imho, i feel the singularity streams through us all. were just along for the ride..

 

my 2 cents

[suninmyeyes]

 

 

I have a different experience than Michael with respect to thought and emotion. Or at least I am looking at it from a different perspective. As I have gotten older and more deeply into personal investigation, I still do not have any control of what thought arises or when, unless I am in a state of meditation when the thoughts subside for the most part. It seems that something in the environment comes into my field of awareness and sparks a like, dislike, memory, familiarity - some sort of association. This is the kernel of the thought. Then the internal discussion ensues. Over time, I've been able to catch the internal discussion earlier and earlier in the process, even at the level of noticing the association before the thought. It's fascinating work.

 

Similarly, emotions come up before I have any "control" of their content or timing, as a result of a similar process. The "control" comes after the fact which, for me, means that I have no control of the thoughts or emotions, only how I react to them and to what degree I allow them to guide my choices.

 

Enjoyed your post Steve.

This is interesting about arising of the thoughts , they seem to be almost elemental to me . Yes it is impossible to control ,but to lessen attraction for certain thoughts and that way being able to choose thoughts more wisely and weave ourselves into existance more elegantly.

This process is indeed fascinating on many levels, life is not what I thought it was. Especially when being becomes more magnetised and less linear. There is absolutley no going back to old thinking, just dancing more skilfully with massive amounts of abondament. As if life rips us wide open , life is living me .

Control? My will? I dont know actually, dont care to know it either - it is just an extra lagguage.

[suninmyeyes]

The way I look at this now is that life may have a more interesting plan for me then this thing called "my will".

 

To give you an example, I had no goal to ever move to Korea. But I lived there for 2 1/2 years and had a great time.

...

 

That said, I still think it's great to have goals and reach them!

I feel the same with my life especially today when my goal was to take 2 months off and was meant to be flying , but was already on the airport and had to turn back and find myself at the moment in the wierdest and not most pleasent situation ever. Not my will.

6 months ago I was meant to spend 4 months in Asia , a big unavoidable obstacle manifested totally unaspectedly and I ended up loosing ticket and not going. Not my will.

However I am suspicious now and trying to listen very carefully as this is getting out of proportion. One way or another outer world is reflection of inner world and something is obviously calling to be adressed.

Edited March 30, 2012 by suninmyeyes