Pristine Awareness

[idiot_stimpy]

When pristine awareness has been recognized for what it is, what more is there to do?

 

Some say cultivating the self, but what is this?

[idiot_stimpy]

I don't know if I can describe this but.

 

Different thoughts enter and depart the mind.

 

Different feeling sensations come and go.

 

Different tastes come and go.

 

Different sounds come and go.

 

Different smells come and go.

 

Different sights come and go.

 

 

But there is something that never comes and goes, that is always there and stays the same.

[xabir2005]

 

But there is something that never comes and goes, that is always there and stays the same.

What is that? Is there complete certainty?

[forestofemptiness]

What about when you go to sleep?

 

But there is something that never comes and goes, that is always there and stays the same.

[idiot_stimpy]

Good questions.

 

There is not complete certainty. Also I cannot really put a finger on it.

 

The best I can do is say that which is unchanging is the space in which everything arises in. That which holds everything, but actually isn't anything itself.

 

As a thought rises up in the mind, this space is what carries it and is behind it.

 

 

When I go to sleep I am not mindful enough to know I am sleeping, I have only had a lucid dream a few times.

 

 

Can you give me a few pointers and point me in the right direction.

Edited March 24, 2012 by jconnar

[xabir2005]

Good questions.

 

There is not complete certainty. Also I cannot really put a finger on it.

 

The best I can do is say that which is unchanging is the space in which everything arises in. That which holds everything, but actually isn't anything itself.

 

As a thought rises up in the mind, this space is what carries it and is behind it.

 

 

When I go to sleep I am not mindful enough to know I am sleeping, I have only had a lucid dream a few times.

 

 

Can you give me a few pointers and point me in the right direction.

OK. You experienced the I AM, but not yet realized it. What is more important is Self-Realization. Continue self-inquiring "Before birth, Who am I?" or "Who am I?" or "What am I?" and probably in months or a few years of diligent inquiring, you will surely realize it. There is just a completely still, thoughtless, doubtless certainty of Being.

 

This is what Thusness wrote to me during the period when I had the experience but not the realization:

 

http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2009/09/realization-and-experience-and-non-dual.html

 

1. On Experience and Realization

 

One of the direct and immediate response I get after reading the articles by Rob Burbea and Rupert is that they missed one very and most important point when talking about the Eternal Witness Experience -- The Realization. They focus too much on the experience but overlook the realization. Honestly I do not like to make this distinction as I see realization also as a form of experience. However in this particular case, it seems appropriate as it could better illustrate what I am trying to convey. It also relates to the few occasions where you described to me your space-like experiences of Awareness and asked whether they correspond to the phase one insight of Eternal Witness. While your experiences are there, I told you ‘not exactly’ even though you told me you clearly experienced a pure sense of presence.

 

So what is lacking? You do not lack the experience, you lack the realization. You may have the blissful sensation or feeling of vast and open spaciousness; you may experience a non-conceptual and objectless state; you may experience the mirror like clarity but all these experiences are not Realization. There is no ‘eureka’, no ‘aha’, no moment of immediate and intuitive illumination that you understood something undeniable and unshakable -- a conviction so powerful that no one, not even Buddha can sway you from this realization because the practitioner so clearly sees the truth of it. It is the direct and unshakable insight of ‘You’. This is the realization that a practitioner must have in order to realize the Zen satori. You will understand clearly why it is so difficult for those practitioners to forgo this ‘I AMness’ and accept the doctrine of anatta. Actually there is no forgoing of this ‘Witness’, it is rather a deepening of insight to include the non-dual, groundlessness and interconnectedness of our luminous nature. Like what Rob said, "keep the experience but refine the views".

 

Lastly this realization is not an end by itself, it is the beginning. If we are truthful and not over exaggerate and get carried away by this initial glimpse, we will realize that we do not gain liberation from this realization; contrary we suffer more after this realization. However it is a powerful condition that motivates a practitioner to embark on a spiritual journey in search of true freedom.

Edited March 24, 2012 by xabir2005

[idiot_stimpy]

Thank you very much!

[JustARandomPanda]

I don't know if I can describe this but.

 

Different thoughts enter and depart the mind.

 

Different feeling sensations come and go.

 

Different tastes come and go.

 

Different sounds come and go.

 

Different smells come and go.

 

Different sights come and go.

 

 

But there is something that never comes and goes, that is always there and stays the same.

 

 

*Whistles*

 

 

Dayum. Lucky you. Man...I sure hope I can find out something like that some day!!

 

You have no idea how badly I wish I had your experience right now.

 

*Heavy sigh...*

[idiot_stimpy]

*Whistles*

 

 

Dayum. Lucky you. Man...I sure hope I can find out something like that some day!!

 

You have no idea how badly I wish I had your experience right now.

 

*Heavy sigh...*

 

 

I don't know if you're being serious with this post or not.

[JustARandomPanda]

I don't know if you're being serious with this post or not.

 

 

Uh...

 

That post wasn't a joke. I genuinely meant everything I said.

[idiot_stimpy]

Continue self-inquiring "Before birth, Who am I?" or "Who am I?" or "What am I?" and probably in months or a few years of diligent inquiring, you will surely realize it. There is just a completely still, thoughtless, doubtless certainty of Being.

 

 

The thing is though, I find it hard now to ask "What am I", because 'I', 'me', 'myself' is just a thought.

 

Thoughts enter the mind and depart. 'I', 'me, 'myself' is just another thought that comes in and departs.

 

There seems to be some sort of addiction to cling to these personal thoughts, but then it is asked 'who is doing this clinging?' and there is nothing.

[idiot_stimpy]

Uh...

 

That post wasn't a joke. I genuinely meant everything I said.

 

 

If you entertain the idea for just one moment, that the 'mental voice' inside your mind, 'the thinker' voice inside of you, was actually a demon whispering to you and pretending to be you and not being you, where would that put you?

Edited March 24, 2012 by jconnar

[xabir2005]

The thing is though, I find it hard now to ask "What am I", because 'I', 'me', 'myself' is just a thought.

 

Thoughts enter the mind and depart. 'I', 'me, 'myself' is just another thought that comes in and departs.

 

There seems to be some sort of addiction to cling to these personal thoughts, but then it is asked 'who is doing this clinging?' and there is nothing.

The question is more like, before the 'I', 'me', 'myself' thoughts, what are you? That is the point. The thoughts of 'I', 'me', 'myself' are delusional thoughts. You are trying to find out the reality before that. The certainty of your own reality is to be discovered prior to all conceptualizations and mental knowledge. Who is the source of the thoughts?

 

Before birth, Who am I?

Edited March 24, 2012 by xabir2005

[xabir2005]

Just found something from Ramana, said very well.

 

http://www.messagefrommasters.com/Life_of_Masters/Ramana-Maharshi/I_Thought.htm

Question : This `I'-thought rises from me. But I do not know the Self.

Ramana Maharshi : All these are only mental concepts. You are now identifying yourself with a wrong `I', which is the `I'-thought. This `I'-thought rises and sinks, whereas the true significance of `I' is beyond both. There cannot be a break in your being. You who slept are also now awake. There is no unhappiness in your deep sleep whereas it exists now. What is it that has happened now so that this difference is experienced ? There was no `I'-thought in your sleep, whereas it is present now. The true `I' is not apparent and the false `I' is parading itself. This false `I' is the obstacle to your right knowledge. Find out from where this false `I' arises. Then it will disappear. You will then be only what you are, that is, absolute being.

 

Question : How to do it? I have not succeeded so far.

Ramana Maharshi : Search for the source of the `I'-thought. That is all that one has to do. The universe exists on account of the `I'-thought. If that ends there is an end to misery also. The false `I' will end only when its source is sought.

 

Again people often ask how the mind is controlled. I say to them, `Show me the mind and then you will know what to do.' The fact is that the mind is only a bundle of thoughts. How can you extinguish it by the thought of doing so or by a desire? Your thoughts and desires are part and parcel of the mind. The mind is simply fattened by new thoughts rising up. Therefore it is foolish to attempt to kill the mind by means of the mind.

 

The only way of doing it is to find its source and hold on to it. The mind will then fade away of its own accord. Yoga teaches chitta vritti nirodha [control of the activities of the mind]. But I say atma vichara [self-inquiry]. This is the practical way. Chitta vritti nirodha is brought about in sleep, swoon, or by starvation. As soon as the cause is withdrawn there is a recrudescence of thoughts. Of what use is it then? In the state of stupor there is peace and no misery. But misery recurs when the stupor is removed. So nirodha [control] is useless and cannot be of lasting benefit.

 

How then can the benefit be made lasting? It is by finding the cause of misery. Misery is due to the perception of objects. If they are not there, there will be no contingent thoughts and so misery is wiped off. `How will objects cease to be?' is the next question. The srutis [scriptures] and the sages say that the objects are only mental creations. They have no substantive being.

 

Investigate the matter and ascertain the truth of the statement. The result will be the conclusion that the objective world is in the subjective consciousness. The Self is thus the only reality which permeates and also envelops the world. Since there is no duality, no thoughts will arise to disturb your peace. This is realization of the Self. The Self is eternal and so also is realization.

 

Abhyasa [spiritual practice] consists in withdrawal within the Self every time you are disturbed by thought. It is not concentration or destruction of the mind but withdrawal into the Self.

[xabir2005]

[idiot_stimpy]

Thank you for your post. I understand now what you mean by the 'I' not what I thought, being the 'I thought'.

 

Awareness is aware of thoughts arising and falling.

 

But awareness is experienced through the 5 senses.

 

But inside these 5 senses, there are objects seen that rise and fall, come and go.

 

Before awareness through the 5 senses, there seems to be an infinite space void of nothing at all. Not being an object in itself, but containing all objects seen rising and falling through the five senses.

 

This space that everything appears and disappears in, seems to be the only constant that is always there and never changes. It is beyond the 5 senses but carries everything that appears in the five senses.

Edited March 24, 2012 by jconnar

[idiot_stimpy]

[idiot_stimpy]

An instant realization sees endless time.

Endless time is as one moment.

When one comprehends the endless moment

He realizes the person who is seeing it.

 

.

[idiot_stimpy]

[xabir2005]

This space that everything appears and disappears in, seems to be the only constant that is always there and never changes. It is beyond the 5 senses but carries everything that appears in the five senses.

Yes the I AM is not the 5 senses. It is the luminous mind that Buddha talks about. It is the 6th sense in Buddhism. After realizing I AM, later you continue to contemplate and realize nondual and the one taste of luminosity in all six senses as described by Ken Wilber. But go through the I AM first.

 

Who am I? Is a direct path contemplation that will lead to the direct unshakeable realization of the I AM.

Edited March 24, 2012 by xabir2005

[xabir2005]

http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com.au/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html

 

 

Now confused

it won't make much sense experientially for you right now. You can have some conceptual understanding of the twofold emptiness first (stage 5 and 6), but focus on the I AM first.

[idiot_stimpy]

That which wants to go past the 'I AM' already, is probably the very same thing that will stop the 'I AM' from being seen?

[joeblast]

When pristine awareness has been recognized for what it is, what more is there to do?

 

Some say cultivating the self, but what is this?

Now, if the matter were only identifying and figuring out awareness...

[idiot_stimpy]

Now, if the matter were only identifying and figuring out awareness...

 

Can it be figured out though?

 

Every-time I try to figure it out, it flees from me.

[idiot_stimpy]

If I try to overlay a concept over it, so as to grasp hold of it with the mind, that which is experienced seems to go away.

 

You were right, it was just an experience. Not a realization.

 

 

But trying to confine something to the realm of form/thought, seems to be a type of blasphemy.