Waysun Lao

[Taiji Bum]

Anybody know of Waysun Lao? He is based in Chicago I think. He has a book called TAI CHI CLASSICS and it includes bone breathing which was the first reference I saw too it outside of my teacher talking about it. I even found a website about him but it isn't the best place to learn anything.

 

Anybody have personal experience or stories about Waysun Lao?

[forestofsouls]

Anybody know of Waysun Lao? He is based in Chicago I think. He has a book called TAI CHI CLASSICS and it includes bone breathing which was the first reference I saw too it outside of my teacher talking about it. I even found a website about him but it isn't the best place to learn anything.

 

Anybody have personal experience or stories about Waysun Lao?

 

I wrote about my experience under the topic "Actual Manifestation of Chi."

[Taiji Bum]

Thanks.

[Buddy]

See BK Frantzis warning of these practices in Opening the Energy Gates of the Body. These are from Fukian White Crane, NOT from taiji, and are potentially very dangerous if not practiced under direct supervision from an expert. And even then...

[Taiji Bum]

See BK Frantzis warning of these practices in Opening the Energy Gates of the Body. These are from Fukian White Crane, NOT from taiji, and are potentially very dangerous if not practiced under direct supervision from an expert. And even then...

Too late. I originally learned them from a taiji guy who learned them from his taiji teacher. He didnt say anything about White Crane. What makes you say they are White Crane?

[Buddy]

Because they are. Liao was a WC guy before taiji. Kumar sponsered him coming here, regrets it now. One of Kumar's students had extremely bad reactions to Liaos stuff. You won't find it in any other taiji style. So it's not "secret" temple stuff, it's WC.

[Taiji Bum]

Because they are. Liao was a WC guy before taiji. Kumar sponsered him coming here, regrets it now. One of Kumar's students had extremely bad reactions to Liaos stuff. You won't find it in any other taiji style. So it's not "secret" temple stuff, it's WC.

Its more likely just another Taoist technique floating around in various MA circles. I doubt its specific to White Crane. Liao may have learned it within the WC system though. Liao's site seems designed to make money so that makes me a little suspicious about his motives but the bone breathing definitely works.

 

Buddy, you seem to know alot about Kumar and his system. I think I heard somewhere you have been with him for ten years? I have his internal martial arts book. I love him for putting out that book especially with the alternative histories, pictures of the old masters and the high level stuff. It is rare to find someone who knows the difference between ward off and split. Most study taiji 20 years and cant identify the individual movements. Thats like saying youve been boxing for 20 years and dont know the difference between a right cross and a jab.

 

I saw a video of Kumar walking the circle and he moves like an internal person. Is there an online resource for his metaphysical system or do I need to buy his book? Is there a Kumar thread here?

[Wanderer]

...but the bone breathing definitely works...

 

Is Wayson's 'Bone Breathing' the same as Clyman's 'Condensing Breathing'? Clyman actually studied under Wayson for many years and may have incorporated some of his teachers ideas into his 'Tidal Wave' chikung system.

 

BTW I used to have Frantzis' book 'Opening the Energy Gates' and it is an excellent book. He DOES warn against practicing certain, what he calls 'packing techniques', however the technique he warns against uses breath-holding techniques which are quite strenuous. Clyman's 'Condensing Breathing' and Wayson's 'Bone Breathing', assuming they're one in the same, don't use strenuous breath-holding, but normal breathing, and so probably would not be dangerous to practice IMHO. However there's always exceptions to the rule. It would be interesting to see if Kumar's student who got bad reactions from practicing Wayson's techniques used breath-holding or normal breathing.

Edited October 28, 2006 by Wanderer

[bronzebow]

Because they are. Liao was a WC guy before taiji. Kumar sponsered him coming here, regrets it now. One of Kumar's students had extremely bad reactions to Liaos stuff. You won't find it in any other taiji style. So it's not "secret" temple stuff, it's WC.

 

Why did Kumar regret bring Liao over?

[Buddy]

I don't want to repeat what Kumar said to me in private. These vibration breath techniques are, in fact, from Fujian White Crane. I met the guy Kumar mentions in "Gates" book and his account was much scarier than even what Kumar wrote.

Darin, I don't know if there is a thread here but I'd be happy to answer any question you might have (as long as I don't have to type too long). Understand that I am not a "master" or anything, just a regular guy who happened to get very lucky in meeting teachers. I know a bunch of interesting things and can vouch for Kumar's work from personal experience. BTW I am, at this writing, no longer connected to his organization. So you won't find my name on his website any longer but I assume he'd only have good things to say about me.

[bronzebow]

I don't want to repeat what Kumar said to me in private. These vibration breath techniques are, in fact, from Fujian White Crane. I met the guy Kumar mentions in "Gates" book and his account was much scarier than even what Kumar wrote.

Darin, I don't know if there is a thread here but I'd be happy to answer any question you might have (as long as I don't have to type too long). Understand that I am not a "master" or anything, just a regular guy who happened to get very lucky in meeting teachers. I know a bunch of interesting things and can vouch for Kumar's work from personal experience. BTW I am, at this writing, no longer connected to his organization. So you won't find my name on his website any longer but I assume he'd only have good things to say about me.

 

That's cool I respect that.

[thaddeus]

Why did Kumar regret bring Liao over?

Actually, Buddy doesn't need to answer directly, the answer is obvious. What connections does he have in the taichi community..his background is cloudy. Rumor mill is that he learned a CMC form in a park. Does he produce any noteworthy students? Nope. Anyone making any achievements? Nope. Anyone actually paying attention to him? Nope. Just because someone writes a book or can market themselves well (clyman et. al) doesn't mean they are experts. He wrote a book and has a following, this story is repeated throughout history..

T

[forestofsouls]

Actually, Buddy doesn't need to answer directly, the answer is obvious. What connections does he have in the taichi community..his background is cloudy. Rumor mill is that he learned a CMC form in a park. Does he produce any noteworthy students? Nope. Anyone making any achievements? Nope. Anyone actually paying attention to him? Nope. Just because someone writes a book or can market themselves well (clyman et. al) doesn't mean they are experts. He wrote a book and has a following, this story is repeated throughout history..

T

 

This thread is shameful rumor mongering. Unless anyone here has had direct experience with Master Liao (and it sounds like the answer is "no"), then I this all amounts to gossipy backstabbing and is both childish and contemptible.

[thaddeus]

This thread is shameful rumor mongering. Unless anyone here has had direct experience with Master Liao (and it sounds like the answer is "no"), then I this all amounts to gossipy backstabbing and is both childish and contemptible.

If we're going to follow this protocol, then we might as well just go and delete most of the posts here. Then by that token, we shouldn't say anything positive either unless we've personally met and trained under people. We're here to chat, debate, and basically interact. It's a small community. We shouldn't be pulling punches and acting all politically correct. If you can refute my statements, please do so. By reading his book and hearing about Clyman and seeing his ads, it's a way of 'meeting' someone. Do I have to personally meet and interact with Bush to have an opinion on how he runs the country? Of course not. So while what you say sounds great..c'mon..it may be uncomfortable to discuss negative things, but jump in, contribute...tell us your personal interactions with him that can change our/my mind. I personally don't care less, just going from my observations.

T

[thelerner]

I've seen shameful rumor mongering. I've known shameful fearmongering. (IMHO) Thaddeus didn't cross that line.

 

Thad is sceptical, but I think he's open enough to say, tell me more. Talking about real experiences and live impressions of a teacher carry much more weight then what we pick up third hand on the internet.

 

So tell us more about your experiences with the master.

 

I do think there is some resistance to Master/guru situations here. We do tend to see Masters as people with chips on there shoulders and something to sell.

 

We also see people get starry eyed with there particular master and/or tradition and sometimes it seems dangerous or unwarranted.

 

Michael

 

 

 

If it generates a good conservation and two sided feedback I don't think a bit of rumor is so bad. As long as they don't mention the master's third nipple or the rumors of satanic sacrifice.

[mYTHmAKER]

For what it's worth

In Taijiquan Through the Western Gate Rick Barrett does have positive things to say re Waysun Liao.

[thaddeus]

I've seen shameful rumor mongering. I've known shameful fearmongering. (IMHO) Thaddeus didn't cross that line.

 

Thad is sceptical, but I think he's open enough to say, tell me more. Talking about real experiences and live impressions of a teacher carry much more weight then what we pick up third hand on the internet.

 

So tell us more about your experiences with the master.

 

I do think there is some resistance to Master/guru situations here. We do tend to see Masters as people with chips on there shoulders and something to sell.

 

We also see people get starry eyed with there particular master and/or tradition and sometimes it seems dangerous or unwarranted.

 

Michael

If it generates a good conservation and two sided feedback I don't think a bit of rumor is so bad. As long as they don't mention the master's third nipple or the rumors of satanic sacrifice.

someone understands me!!

[forestofsouls]

 

So tell us more about your experiences with the master.

 

I do think there is some resistance to Master/guru situations here. We do tend to see Masters as people with chips on there shoulders and something to sell.

 

We also see people get starry eyed with there particular master and/or tradition and sometimes it seems dangerous or unwarranted.

 

 

First, I personally use the term "Master" as a respectful honorific. Having studied Master Liao's system, he does seem in my opinion to have mastered some level of Tai Chi and I think the title is appropriate. I don't think such things necessarily confer a "guru" status, i.e. imply that the person is master of me.

 

Second, I don't think ad hominem attacks, insults, etc. are approriate, no matter who we're talking about. I don't think Thaddeus should be banned, tortured, beaten, drawn, or quartered due to his remarks, he certainly has his right to post them. I reserve my right to call the remarks childish.

 

Turning to Thaddeus' remarks:

 

Third, one should not mix Gary Clyman in with Waysun Liao. There is no record of him having ever attended or studied at Master Liao's school.

 

Fourth, I study Master Liao's system, but my personal contact with him has been very limited. Most of my contact is with my teacher.

 

Regarding Master Liao learning CMC form in a park: this is quite ridiculous. Master Liao's system of Tai Chi is deep and comprehensive. His system is based on single form practice, in which each individual move (ward off, single whip, etc.) are units in themselves. Thus, one can practice ward off over and over again, then roll back over and over again, etc. One can string them together in the long form, or one can string them together in any way one pleases. I have not found any CMC based Tai Chi people who have even heard of single form practice.

 

There are many details to the forms, and the teaching is layered. At first, you learn the physical basics (i.e. the bare bones of how to do a ward off). As you progress, you learn the finer details, and on different levels (physical, mental, or chi levels). The teaching changes as you adapt, so that in the beinning, you are only learning the physical aspects. Over time as you develop mental and chi awareness, you learn more about these aspects. Eventually, there are chi applications as to martial arts, healing, and spiritual aspects. I am not very advanced, and my knowledge is quite limited.

 

Another thing I find striking about this system is the emphasis on a meditative mindset and open discussion of chi. Many schools/teachers/students will only discuss the physical aspects of these practices. Not only are these things openly talked about, but they are openly demonstrated.

 

Regarding Master Liao's connections to the community: he has some connections in China/Taiwan (where he lived until coming here in the 1970's), and has been known to host people visiting from there.

 

As to his accomplishments: he has approved very few people as instructors in his system. My own teacher has studied under him for twenty years. My own teacher is quite humble and doesn't care about fame/fortune/making his accomplishments known. Much of Master Liao's own energy has been funneled into his books, DVDs and teaching his instructors, i.e. preserving the system.

 

I'm not saying that this system is the end-all-be-all of tai chi, or the only authentic form of tai chi, or anything like that. In my experience, it gives you what it promises, according to the effort you put in.

 

I think that's enough for now.

Edited November 2, 2006 by forestofsouls

[thaddeus]

Second, I don't think ad hominem attacks, insults, etc. are approriate, no matter who we're talking about. I don't think Thaddeus should be banned, tortured, beaten, drawn, or quartered due to his remarks, he certainly has his right to post them. I reserve my right to call the remarks childish.

 

Which of my comments was childish? You're certainly entitled to say that, but it certainly sounds like an insult, attack, etc. which is not appropriate no matter who we're talking about...hmmmm, except when it's you saying it, huh?

Turning to Thaddeus' remarks:

 

Third, one should not mix Gary Clyman in with Waysun Liao. There is no record of him having ever attended or studied at Master Liao's school.

Uh, please google Mr. Clyman and his relationship with Waysun before saying this.

 

Fourth, I study Master Liao's system, but my personal contact with him has been very limited. Most of my contact is with my teacher.

 

Regarding Master Liao learning CMC form in a park: this is quite ridiculous. Master Liao's system of Tai Chi is deep and comprehensive. His system is based on single form practice, in which each individual move (ward off, single whip, etc.) are units in themselves. Thus, one can practice ward off over and over again, then roll back over and over again, etc. One can string them together in the long form, or one can string them together in any way one pleases. I have not found any CMC based Tai Chi people who have even heard of single form practice.

Except for William C C Chen? Hmmmm....read up on the history of Chen Man Ching and look up silk reeling exercise..you might retract this statement.

 

There are many details to the forms, and the teaching is layered. At first, you learn the physical basics (i.e. the bare bones of how to do a ward off). As you progress, you learn the finer details, and on different levels (physical, mental, or chi levels). The teaching changes as you adapt, so that in the beinning, you are only learning the physical aspects. Over time as you develop mental and chi awareness, you learn more about these aspects. Eventually, there are chi applications as to martial arts, healing, and spiritual aspects. I am not very advanced, and my knowledge is quite limited.

 

Another thing I find striking about this system is the emphasis on a meditative mindset and open discussion of chi. Many schools/teachers/students will only discuss the physical aspects of these practices. Not only are these things openly talked about, but they are openly demonstrated.

You did say you're just a beginner yet you feel qualified to comment on the higher levels of what you're studying and saying it's 'nowhere else'

I'm not saying that this system is the end-all-be-all of tai chi, or the only authentic form of tai chi, or anything like that. In my experience, it gives you what it promises, according to the effort you put in.

 

I think that's enough for now.

Fair enough. I stand by my statements..his background is cloudy. CMC style was not practiced in temples. It's fine that he has a serious martial arts background, studied taichi and has some insights, they certainly weren't passed down. Nuff said, if you're serious about having a shop talk on taiji, i'm all for it. I'm sorry if I offended you and your style with my comments, but you should know where it stacks up in the scheme of things. I've been studying for quite awhile and have seen my share of 'bogusosity'. Now that China is relatively open compared to the 70s, alot of the nonsense surrounding many of 'teachers' that came here can't stand up to scrutiny.

T

[thelerner]

Thanks Souls, it sounds like you've found a great teacher. This board is all about telling people about our senseis and practices. Forgive us if for kicking the tires first.

 

Yours

 

Michael

[thaddeus]

Thanks Souls, it sounds like you've found a great teacher. This board is all about telling people about our senseis and practices. Forgive us if for kicking the tires first.

 

Yours

 

Michael

I was being a bit persnickity wasn't I...apologize for the tone in advance..but jeez, put a bunch of martial artists in the room and this will happen..

T

[Smile]

Everyone knows my Taiji teacher is better then yours...

[forestofsouls]

Fair enough. I stand by my statements..his background is cloudy. CMC style was not practiced in temples. It's fine that he has a serious martial arts background, studied taichi and has some insights, they certainly weren't passed down. Nuff said, if you're serious about having a shop talk on taiji, i'm all for it. I'm sorry if I offended you and your style with my comments, but you should know where it stacks up in the scheme of things. I've been studying for quite awhile and have seen my share of 'bogusosity'. Now that China is relatively open compared to the 70s, alot of the nonsense surrounding many of 'teachers' that came here can't stand up to scrutiny.

T

 

Just re: the CMC--- he never said the CMC form was from the temples. He openly admits that he adopted the CMC form to teach tai chi because it is simple.

 

We can talk all day about the various alleged origins, histories, etc. but this isn't my concern. My main concern with these things is whether they work. I don't care if its a Taoist technique, a Buddhist technique, or a Christian technique; whether it was made up today or 1000's of years ago; whether there is a pedigree or not. My question is: does it work?

 

I believe we live in an amazing age where this knowledge is ripe for the taking. Personally, I would like to find the most effective techniques to free myself and others from suffering, delusion, etc. To paraphrase the Buddha, when you have an arrow in your chest, it doesn't matter what kind of wood it is, or the sort of arrowhead, or who shot it. What matters is getting it out.

[thaddeus]

We can talk all day about the various alleged origins, histories, etc. but this isn't my concern. My main concern with these things is whether they work. I don't care if its a Taoist technique, a Buddhist technique, or a Christian technique; whether it was made up today or 1000's of years ago; whether there is a pedigree or not. My question is: does it work?

ok, so what do you think of the bone breathing stuff..what kind of results have you gotten from it? I've been playing around with it on and off..

T

[forestofsouls]

ok, so what do you think of the bone breathing stuff..what kind of results have you gotten from it? I've been playing around with it on and off..

T

 

Bone breathing...

 

I've only just started with bone breathing, and I've only done my hands. There are a few caveats:

 

1. You shouldn't do it unless you're feeling really good. My teacher says that what we're doing here is packing down the chi, and if its colored with negative emotions, you don't want to pack it in.

 

2. You need to have produced a good flow. This was my major problem. For the first 18 months, I didn't get much of a flow when I was doing Tai Chi, so doing exercises like this wouldn't have meant much.

 

3. I was told to start small, like just the fingers.

 

4. I wouldn't recommend this for beginners (and this is aimed at the onlookers/casual readers rather than Thaddeus) because a) you probably won't get anything from it; b ) you should have a lot of knowledge/control to be patient; c) if you haven't learned how to relax on a deep level, you'll probably just tense your muscles and that's no good.

 

My results: the electrical shock feeling in my hands, increased sensitivity in my hands generally. The further I get away from my hands, the harder it is, but I think this is a matter of practice.

 

I think this sort of breathing is fundamental in this system for building the power for external applications, like tossing people around. I have a ways to go for this, especially due to the fact that when I contact some one else, I lose my focus.

 

It's funny because I've also been practicing Bodri's skeleton meditation after my usual sitting so I can get more in touch with my bones. Bodri states that focusing on the skeleton is a way to build up your jing; Master Liao writes that this technique converts chi into jing.

Edited November 3, 2006 by forestofsouls