Immortals (Xian Shi)

[El-ahrairah]

One pointed concentration, yes absolutely critical.

 

It's hard for me to describe an experience to another person. The state I am talking about certainly is not the same as normal waking consciousness though. Deep trance state, and suspended animation are the best words I have to describe it. You are in a deep torpor and your bodies metabolism slows to the point you would be pounced dead by a medical professional. You'll know you are in the correct state when you can see eyes closed and blindfolded. Anything before that level of trance isn't the correct state. Doing one pointed concentration meditation before you are deep enough is exactly the reason no one is able to progress quickly.

 

What is the method you use to reach this trance-like state?

[joeblast]

It is a combination of "fixing the spirit at the seat of awareness" (that specific descriptor is from taoist yoga but I've heard a ton of references to the concept) and smoothing out the breath mechanics to the point that it results in most all bodily systems being brought to a very low energetic consumption state - the coherent breath mechanics also ensure that the whole thing is net energy positive, more being produced by the coherent breathing than is consumed by the breathing itself. Also if importance is a physical body that is in good enough shape that it can withstand sitting for long periods of time, otherwise the zheng qi is never really able to stabilize the body - without that, the body will keep generating signals that will interrupt meditation.

 

That all needs to be done past the point where the movement of air drops below the threshold of neural activity, the breath cannot be felt and its just the abdominal motions and the fixed awareness.

 

I havent reached a deep enough state where I was ever able to entirely forget that little bit of the awareness keeping the motions going - so even after I'd lost any sense of the body there was still that little bit of intention driving that, but with the awareness fixed at the seat that is really what produces that trance like state. Without the other stuff it is next to impossible to separate out the desired signals from the background of noise. That's why you start it all off with correcting the breath mechanics, because there is where you are able to start the process of identifying and then attenuating the body's signals.

 

Since the body's signals are all matrixed together, you cant just work on one, it is a process of working on this aspect, that aspect, another aspect, combing back over all of it repeatedly and smoothing it all out, like rolling out a pizza dough. Put in enough time at it and eventually you get a decent handle on the body's signals and with increased proprioception you can have more granular control over them.

[Thunder_Gooch]

That's assuming a whole lot. Be honest you and no one else here knows anything beyond level 4.

 

 

 

 

“We can talk about that when the time comes. I will tell you this: In Level Four you bring your yin and yang ch’i together and begin to become as I am.”

 

“How many different levels are there?”

 

“Seventy-two.”

 

“What?!”

 

John smiled. “No one said it was easy. The levels correspond to the number of chakras in the human body. You know what a chakra is? An energy center?”

 

“These days everybody does.” “Perhaps. The last chakra to open, Level Seventy-Two, is at the very top of your head.”

 

Danaos, Kosta The Magus of Java (p. 39)

Edited November 29, 2012 by More_Pie_Guy

[Thunder_Gooch]

Here is what I do know.

 

Mo pai level 1 is nothing special, and employed in about a bazillion other schools. Longmen pai to name one specifically.

 

At the very least we can fill all three of our dan tiens using this form of meditation, at which point the universe may open up better paths for us, or we may manifest clairvoyance to the degree to find the next step in our journey.

 

OR

 

We can continue to teacher hop to the next fad of the week, newage, hippy, mantra, snake oil salesman while pouting about our sour grapes and how much Mo Pai really sucked anyway.

 

If faced with prospect of one true and fundamental practice vs 10,000 made up BS ones that lead nowhere, it's a no brainer.

 

 

So how likely is it for you or anyone of us on this forum to ever get the informations nessecary for all these 30 levels of Mo Pai training that are necessary to achieve Immortality ???

 

As far as I read from Jim, even John Chang is only at level 20 and therefore no Immortal at all, if you have to reach at least level 30!

 

So how reasonable is all the discussion on this forum about Mo Pai?

Edited November 29, 2012 by More_Pie_Guy

[Thunder_Gooch]

It's an awkward state to be in, neither are you "not aware", nor are you "aware". It is both at the same time, neither at the same time, and just one, and just the other all at the same time, and none at the same time. It makes absolutely no sense for me even try to explain. Only that it is inception level trippy to exist like that. It isn't the same as waking consciousness, but you can remain focused with your awareness like a laser, and it does become mechanical and self repetitive like driving a car without thinking about it even though your active attention is diligently focused on the activity and not distracted by internal dialog or music or conversation. Imagine becoming one with the experience to the point the car becomes an extension of your being and you can feel it touching the road itself.

 

It is my opinion that trance state must be achieved first before one pointed concentration begins, but this is just my opinion. If you can get that deep by using one pointed concentration then you are more advanced than me and you have my admiration.

 

It takes me all night to reach the level of trance required just to do 30 minutes to an hour of actual concentration meditation.

 

 

It is a combination of "fixing the spirit at the seat of awareness" (that specific descriptor is from taoist yoga but I've heard a ton of references to the concept) and smoothing out the breath mechanics to the point that it results in most all bodily systems being brought to a very low energetic consumption state - the coherent breath mechanics also ensure that the whole thing is net energy positive, more being produced by the coherent breathing than is consumed by the breathing itself. Also if importance is a physical body that is in good enough shape that it can withstand sitting for long periods of time, otherwise the zheng qi is never really able to stabilize the body - without that, the body will keep generating signals that will interrupt meditation.

 

That all needs to be done past the point where the movement of air drops below the threshold of neural activity, the breath cannot be felt and its just the abdominal motions and the fixed awareness.

 

I havent reached a deep enough state where I was ever able to entirely forget that little bit of the awareness keeping the motions going - so even after I'd lost any sense of the body there was still that little bit of intention driving that, but with the awareness fixed at the seat that is really what produces that trance like state. Without the other stuff it is next to impossible to separate out the desired signals from the background of noise. That's why you start it all off with correcting the breath mechanics, because there is where you are able to start the process of identifying and then attenuating the body's signals.

 

Since the body's signals are all matrixed together, you cant just work on one, it is a process of working on this aspect, that aspect, another aspect, combing back over all of it repeatedly and smoothing it all out, like rolling out a pizza dough. Put in enough time at it and eventually you get a decent handle on the body's signals and with increased proprioception you can have more granular control over them.

[Thunder_Gooch]

What is the method you use to reach this trance-like state?

 

I'll send you a PM, the less I say here the less potential there is for me to get stuck in another 10 page debate.

[Wells]

“We can talk about that when the time comes. I will tell you this: In Level Four you bring your yin and yang ch’i together and begin to become as I am.”

 

“How many different levels are there?”

 

“Seventy-two.”

 

“What?!”

 

John smiled. “No one said it was easy. The levels correspond to the number of chakras in the human body. You know what a chakra is? An energy center?”

 

“These days everybody does.” “Perhaps. The last chakra to open, Level Seventy-Two, is at the very top of your head.”

 

Danaos, Kosta The Magus of Java (p. 39)

 

...and according to Jim, 2/3 of Kosta's book is his own fiction! So you can't take that seriously!

 

Take for example that bullshit about lying about the color of Yang Chi when John did that Ping-Pong thing, because in Kosta's opinion Yang Chi had to be "red" or "red-bluish" and not completely "blue"! How ridiculous is that?

 

Also: 72 levels - 4 levels = 68 levels!

 

You get the first "Yin/Yang"-fused-energy center at level 4 after working for 4 levels on it!

 

71 centers remain!

 

But then you fill & fuse the remaining 71 energy centers during only 68 remaining levels but with the same procedure as the first???

 

And even if you would (out of some unknown reasons) need only one level for each remaining chakra, it doesn't work out anyway!

 

I thought Kosta has a degree in engeneering or so! So when he's inventing fairy tales to make his book more interesting he should at least consider his readers to be able to do the math!!! FAIL!

Edited November 29, 2012 by Dorian Black

[joeblast]

It's an awkward state to be in, neither are you "not aware", nor are you "aware". It is both at the same time, neither at the same time, and just one, and just the other all at the same time, and none at the same time. It makes absolutely no sense for me even try to explain. Only that it is inception level trippy to exist like that. It isn't the same as waking consciousness, but you can remain focused with your awareness like a laser, and it does become mechanical and self repetitive like driving a car without thinking about it even though your active attention is diligently focused on the activity and not distracted by internal dialog or music or conversation. Imagine becoming one with the experience to the point the car becomes an extension of your being and you can feel it touching the road itself.

 

It is my opinion that trance state must be achieved first before one pointed concentration begins, but this is just my opinion. If you can get that deep by using one pointed concentration then you are more advanced than me and you have my admiration.

 

It takes me all night to reach the level of trance required just to do 30 minutes to an hour of actual concentration meditation.

For me it depends on how good my current level of practice is. If I'm not in good practice then the physical mechanisms simply do not reach a low enough level where I can really make good use of the focus of awareness. Easy enough to tell by the phenomena that manifest. But when I am in good enough practice, ten, maybe 15 minutes is usually sufficient for the phenomena to begin to manifest. At which point if I'm planning on doing any energy movement like MCO, that is the time, then once done working with that, back to protocol. The actual lengths are correlated with level of achievement and energy reserves, because unless my energy reserves are at a certain level then forget it, not going more than 40-50 second breaths. I remember the first time I blew all of my progress with partying, drank too much a couple days in a row back in like 05, 06 and all of a sudden my breaths went from 1:10+ to...wha, like 30 seconds tops.

 

But anyway...it seems that I'm not really separating the concepts of focused awareness and the trance state, they mutually support in my experience. Of course how the energy manifests will be qualitatively different depending on the rest of the matrix of input

 

 

I'll send you a PM, the less I say here the less potential there is for me to get stuck in another 10 page debate.

Would love to have your opinion You're already in the middle of 10 pages of debate anyway

 

...

...the point? I dont see any information, or the discussion, being furthered by these relatively meaningless points. Or is it just me wanting to stick to strictly substantive points

[Thunder_Gooch]

Dorian,

 

Each major chakra probably encompasses multiple levels, perhaps more than four before moving onto the next chakra.

 

It is my understanding there are 7 major chakras and hundreds of minor ones, and the channels which interconnect them.

 

 

...and according to Jim, 2/3 of Kosta's book is his own fiction! So you can't take that seriously!

 

Take for example that bullshit about lying about the color of Yang Chi when John did that Ping-Pong thing, because in Kosta's opinion Yang Chi had to be "red" or "red-bluish" and not completely "blue"! How ridiculous is that?

 

Also: 72 levels - 4 levels = 68 levels!

 

You get the first "Yin/Yang"-fused-energy center at level 4 after working for 4 levels on it!

 

71 centers remain!

 

But then you fill & fuse the remaining 71 energy centers during only 68 remaining levels but with the same procedure as the first???

 

And even if you would (out of some unknown reasons) need only one level for each remaining chakra, it doesn't work out anyway!

 

I thought Kosta has a degree in engeneering or so! So when he's inventing fairy tales to make his book more interesting he should at least consider his readers to be able to do the math!!! FAIL!

[三江源]

Yes. Also.... really and truly the numbers can be taken as meaning LOTS and representing relative values.. they arent to be read literally. Its a map, not the territory.

[Wells]

Dorian,

 

Each major chakra probably encompasses multiple levels, perhaps more than four before moving onto the next chakra.

 

It is my understanding there are 7 major chakras and hundreds of minor ones, and the channels which interconnect them.

 

Why do you then ignore Kosta's talk about exactly 72 chakras in the body? I don't get it!

 

Also, what about John Chang allegedly NOT being immortal because he is not even near level 30?

[Imperial]

It sounds so complicated that I don't even know where to begin. >:

Do you think it is good to begin here?: http://internalart.tripod.com/home/immortality.htm

Edited November 30, 2012 by Imperial

[joeblast]

It sounds so complicated that I don't even know where to begin. >:

Do you think it is good to begin here?: http://internalart.t...immortality.htm

Start building your meditative foundation here

http://ymaa.com/publishing/books/qigong/qigong_meditation_embryonic_breathing

[MERCELESS ONE]

-Raises hand-

I have a question. O:

 

Assuming if an individual converted all his energy into Yang and attained the highest level of immortality, how will they be able to come back down to this world? If their consciousness are in their energy, how are they able to see, feel, and do the rest of the senses? Since their body is already converted into energy, they won't have the physical parts that a normal human does, like necessary human organs, and nerves. etc. What are you guy's thoughts on this?

 

you wouldnt convert all your energy to yang! it would have to be a mixture, of both yin and yang to stabalize immortal energy. yang dissapates over time when you pass. yin cant act in the real world alone so it would have to be a mixture. if you converted all your energy to yang you would most likley come back to a body to try and get it rite the next time. and energy dosent need physical means as we know it to percieve reality. think of this..the mind does not need the eyes to see. this is scientific fact. in that state of being you would precieve energy directly as it flows. in my experience more clearly. the eyes miss things that the mind dosent!

[MERCELESS ONE]

Dont interpret "trance" as something mysterious or detached as in hypnosis. Trance simply equals the phenomena that occur when you have attenuated, to a very significant level, the body's signals - to the point where thought-stream-energy does not manifest. That means basically "shutting off the cranial nerves" - in the absence of CN stimulation, there are much less higher brain resonances as a result of neural firings; the energy potentials are harnessed at a closer-to-root level - so by doing the mind training you are really also learning to harness this "root-core-energy" before it manifests as something.

 

to piggyback off of this:

 

as you can see its all about energy! the more you can relax your brain and calm it the more yang you can absorb into your dantien! i do this on a daily basis! stay in the higher states as best you can throughout the day for the rest of your life. just aim for it you dont have to be the best at it. but once you develope a habit of it true power awaits!

[joeblast]

also of note, olfactory nerve stimulation results in the 40cps resonance

 

same total energy =

 

high frequency + low amplitude

 

or

 

lower frequency, higher amplitude

 

 

and we build the potentials for higher amplitudes (and in some ways the higher frequencies also) by cultivating.

[MERCELESS ONE]

So how likely is it for you or anyone of us on this forum to ever get the informations nessecary for all these 30 levels of Mo Pai training that are necessary to achieve Immortality ???

 

As far as I read from Jim, even John Chang is only at level 20 and therefore no Immortal at all, if you have to reach at least level 30!

 

So how reasonable is all the discussion on this forum about Mo Pai?

 

its verry reasonable, hell its your immortality! be preturbed by the work or figure out what it takes to get there! for me there are no other options! i will get there!

[Thunder_Gooch]

Why do you then ignore Kosta's talk about exactly 72 chakras in the body? I don't get it!

 

Also, what about John Chang allegedly NOT being immortal because he is not even near level 30?

 

I'll be honest I don't know specifically how many chakra's mo pai's system works with. We know that levels 1-4 involve two chakras.

 

So if you assume that for every 4 levels 2 chakras are filled, compressed and fused together as one, 72 / 4 = 18, and 18 x 2 = 36. It is possible that the mo pai system works only with 36 chakras fusing them together as in levels 1-4 into 18 chakras, and wiring them up and connecting them together.

 

To be honest I don't know for certain.

 

 

John smiled. “No one said it was easy. The levels correspond to the number of chakras in the human body. You know what a chakra is?

 

Danaos, Kosta The Magus of Java (p. 39)

 

 

No one said that it was one chakra per level.

 

 

 

 

 

In this there are 20 chakras displayed, not including the ones in the arms and hands, nor the channels interconnecting them.

Edited November 30, 2012 by More_Pie_Guy

[MERCELESS ONE]

That's assuming a whole lot. Be honest you and no one else here knows anything beyond level 4.

 

i do! and how do you know what ppl know! past lvl 4 you work with the heart chakra, and the third eye chakra. in ways you cant at the lowerlevels. and i must say there is more to this than you can imagine. the heart chakra has more dense nerves in it than the brain. alot of you ppl say not to practice multiple disaplines but its how i gained enough knowledge to figure out how to get past level 4. and no i dont know forms, forms dont matter. its in the meditations and energy work. my twin is pas level 4 and ill be walking one of my buddies through mixing yin and yang next month. its not as hard as most of you think. i can gaurantee most ppl can get there faster than they think. its all about how much you practice, and how you practice. john chang told ppl that it will take years to keep the weak and small minded away. when anyone who has a brain and enough experience can figure it out. its how lim made it to lvl 51 and challenged pai lok nen. and how liao made it to 25 in ten yrs, granted he had a grand master to teach him. but it is possible. i have it broken down to a science. cause this is my science. and ill be puting to gether a post on the workings to get to lvl4. and to note, its not that you charge all of your chakras to get to every level. the chakras are charged by getting to higher levels. the dantien holds a powerfull charg after lvl 4, this charge feeds the rest of the chakra system, thus activating higher fuctions of each of them! and this all comes from personal experience of practicing the meditations and energy practices. all that i have learned, not some! and the mo pai only introduced 2 new concepts that i had never encountered. and that was moving the dantien, and mixing yin and yang. and i can help anone get there if you so desire!

[Thunder_Gooch]

i do! and how do you know what ppl know! past lvl 4 you work with the heart chakra, and the third eye chakra. in ways you cant at the lowerlevels. and i must say there is more to this than you can imagine. the heart chakra has more dense nerves in it than the brain. alot of you ppl say not to practice multiple disaplines but its how i gained enough knowledge to figure out how to get past level 4. and no i dont know forms, forms dont matter. its in the meditations and energy work. my twin is pas level 4 and ill be walking one of my buddies through mixing yin and yang next month. its not as hard as most of you think. i can gaurantee most ppl can get there faster than they think. its all about how much you practice, and how you practice. john chang told ppl that it will take years to keep the weak and small minded away. when anyone who has a brain and enough experience can figure it out. its how lim made it to lvl 51 and challenged pai lok nen. and how liao made it to 25 in ten yrs, granted he had a grand master to teach him. but it is possible. i have it broken down to a science. cause this is my science. and ill be puting to gether a post on the workings to get to lvl4. and to note, its not that you charge all of your chakras to get to every level. the chakras are charged by getting to higher levels. the dantien holds a powerfull charg after lvl 4, this charge feeds the rest of the chakra system, thus activating higher fuctions of each of them! and this all comes from personal experience of practicing the meditations and energy practices. all that i have learned, not some! and the mo pai only introduced 2 new concepts that i had never encountered. and that was moving the dantien, and mixing yin and yang. and i can help anone get there if you so desire!

 

MO,

 

Not to offend you, but I think you'd be better off getting to level 72, then coming back to help us once you've reached the zenith of your potential. No one is going to listen to anything you have to say until then.

 

I am not trying to pick on you, just trying to tell you how it works in real life.

[Wells]

I'll be honest I don't know specifically how many chakra's mo pai's system works with. We know that levels 1-4 involve two chakras.

 

You are always quoting Kosta's books as axiomatic source of truth for Joh Chang's statements!

Therefore you must accept John Chang's statement that there are exactly 72 chakras in the human body.

Not the number of the chakras the Mo Pai work with, the complete number of all chakras present (according to your own quotation).

 

 

So if you assume that for every 4 levels 2 chakras are filled, compressed and fused together as one, 72 / 4 = 18, and 18 x 2 = 36. It is possible that the mo pai system works only with 36 chakras fusing them together as in levels 1-4 into 18 chakras, and wiring them up and connecting them together.

 

To be honest I don't know for certain.

 

In your opinion, tantien is the same as a chakra?

From what I read tantien seems more to be a container and chakras simply locations where many minor nadis/channels branch from a bigger major nadi/channel.

 

 

No one said that it was one chakra per level.

 

My intent was to point out the following conclusion (if John's alleged statement in the book is true):

If we assume tantien and huyin as two "chakras" that are "completed" after achieving level 4.

Then we have remaining 70 chakras to "complete" (filling and compressing, I don't even address the fusing here!) and only 68 levels for that.

So even when you are from that point on "done" with one chakra per level somehow, at the last level you would have to deal with 3 remaining chakras!

 

 

 

 

 

In this there are 20 chakras displayed, not including the ones in the arms and hands, nor the channels interconnecting them.

 

That drawing is from MANTAK CHIA's books and adresses acupuncture points! Do you see Tantien there? No, because even Mantak Chia knows that tantien is no "Chakra" or "Acupuncture point" and don't forget that even the traditional locations of the chakras and the acupuncture points are not the sames!

 

So:

 

Tantien =/= Chakras =/= Acupuncture Points

 

No offence, but to equalize these three different terms as if they describe the same phenomenons sounds quite "new age"-y to me!

[joeblast]

yeah I'm about done even bothering checking on this thread anymore

[Thunder_Gooch]

To be honest I don't know how many chakra's the mo pai system ultimately works with, whether it is 72 total fused together to make 36, or 144 total fused together to make 72. I don't have any good answers for you. I don't know what chakras are worked with or how past level 4 in their system, only that I would assume the other chakra's are filled compressed and fused to their corresponding yin centers just like levels 1-4, and interconnected with one another.

 

Perhaps in the Indonesian system levels 1-4 are really all 1a, 1b, 1c, 1d.

 

I do know that we have three dan tiens and it is my goal to fill all three if I do nothing else with my practice.

 

I wish I had something better to give you, but I don't.

 

 

 

You are always quoting Kosta's books as axiomatic source of truth for Joh Chang's statements!

Therefore you must accept John Chang's statement that there are exactly 72 chakras in the human body.

Not the number of the chakras the Mo Pai work with, the complete number of all chakras present (according to your own quotation).

 

 

 

 

In your opinion, tantien is the same as a chakra?

From what I read tantien seems more to be a container and chakras simply locations where many minor nadis/channels branch from a bigger major nadi/channel.

 

 

 

 

My intent was to point out the following conclusion (if John's alleged statement in the book is true):

If we assume tantien and huyin as two "chakras" that are "completed" after achieving level 4.

Then we have remaining 70 chakras to "complete" (filling and compressing, I don't even address the fusing here!) and only 68 levels for that.

So even when you are from that point on "done" with one chakra per level somehow, at the last level you would have to deal with 3 remaining chakras!

 

 

 

That drawing is from MANTAK CHIA's books and adresses acupuncture points! Do you see Tantien there? No, because even Mantak Chia knows that tantien is no "Chakra" or "Acupuncture point" and don't forget that even the traditional locations of the chakras and the acupuncture points are not the sames!

 

So:

 

Tantien =/= Chakras =/= Acupuncture Points

 

No offence, but to equalize these three different terms as if they describe the same phenomenons sounds quite "new age"-y to me!

Edited December 1, 2012 by More_Pie_Guy

[MERCELESS ONE]

MO,

 

Not to offend you, but I think you'd be better off getting to level 72, then coming back to help us once you've reached the zenith of your potential. No one is going to listen to anything you have to say until then.

 

I am not trying to pick on you, just trying to tell you how it works in real life.

 

well thats wher you are wrong, just because you dont want to pay attention dosent mean others wont. and this is further not true because there are others who i am helping from this site as we speak! theres more than one who can mix yin and yang and on there way to building up to full power lvl 4. and some who are just starting. i dont have to prove my self to you and others who think i do! if you dont see anthing in what i have to offer then you dont. if you havnt mixed yin and yang, then why wont you find out how. how do you know im not able to teach this . just because you believe no one can figure it out? but you know what, i think weve had this conversation before. and you are still on your search like most, too proud to admit they need help! just know i dont know anyones level of practice except from what you all type and tell of your experiences. if anyone needs help just shoot me an email. and ill be glad to help! i dont see anyone else offering to help! and no i dont want our money! i have my own thank you!

[Thunder_Gooch]

MO,

 

I hope that you develop a successful lineage, and have many students.

 

I wish you the best with your practice.

 

 

well thats wher you are wrong, just because you dont want to pay attention dosent mean others wont. and this is further not true because there are others who i am helping from this site as we speak! theres more than one who can mix yin and yang and on there way to building up to full power lvl 4. and some who are just starting. i dont have to prove my self to you and others who think i do! if you dont see anthing in what i have to offer then you dont. if you havnt mixed yin and yang, then why wont you find out how. how do you know im not able to teach this . just because you believe no one can figure it out? but you know what, i think weve had this conversation before. and you are still on your search like most, too proud to admit they need help! just know i dont know anyones level of practice except from what you all type and tell of your experiences. if anyone needs help just shoot me an email. and ill be glad to help! i dont see anyone else offering to help! and no i dont want our money! i have my own thank you!