tulku

Living Life is a totally misconstrued taoist concept

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I think your example of a mother is a good one... She gives love with no expectations of a return exchange. She just gives it. :)

 

If you expect (or desire) something in return, it is conditional and not freely given.

You misunderstood the purpose of the example.

 

I shared with you the mother baby relationship example to show how unconditional love is immature. It is not yet fully grown as an individual. The baby is part of the mother, so the mother is merely taking care of a cute part of her self. You cannot say to the baby, "ok by baby, see you tonight, there is some food in the kitchen." that would be cruel. Just as it would be cruel to yourself to unconditionally love someone. Not even parents should be loved unconditionally, for the horrors i've heard about some parents I'd advice to unconditionally get the hell away from them. Far, far away.

 

I do agree if you say that love finds its origin in one person, it is born out of two. One starts love, without asking in return, he gives as some sort of investment. Then, when the other person opens up, the sharing begins. When you take too much, the other person closes to love. When you give too much, you yourself will slowly drain and either close to love or be chewed and thrown away.

 

Real love can also seem tough, but its not. When a child grows up, he/she has to make own decisions. When they do drugs, it would be cruel to approve and agree. You have close to them. Stop sharing, disagree, totally disapprove of what they do. Or you can continue to love and have the drug addict drain you. Then when you are drained, who is going to help the drug addict?

 

The mother baby relationshiop is codependant, the business relationship independant, the mature loving friendship or partner relationship is interdependant. Switching from independancy to co-dependancy all the time. When you kiss someone, you cannot remain independant as in "i'm foing to kiss you wether you like it or not" When you're driving a car you have to atleast remain indpendant with two legs and one arm.

 

The parent loving the child unconditionally is the only form of unconditional love that exists. Because it is a way to have a part of you live trough the child. Just like a teacher would teach the student unconditionally. Alot of teachers would love to teach for free if money was not an issue.

Edited by Everything

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The parent loving the child unconditionally is the only form of unconditional love that exists. Because it is a way to have a part of you live trough the child. Just like a teacher would teach the student unconditionally. Alot of teachers would love to teach for free if money was not an issue.

 

The parent loving the child is just one example of what you might call unconditional love. Keep in mind there are some horrible mothers out there as well, so even if we may be biologically inclined to care for our child, it doesn't mean that everyone will.

 

As an aside, one thing I'm finding is that unconditional love is not as important as caring for someone dispassionately. Without an emotional attachment it is much easier to make the right decision for that person. That's not knocking unconditional love, in fact I encourage people to aspire to it, the point is that if you do not have unconditional love for everyone, then it is completely conditional, the condition being that one person.

 

Aaron

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As an aside, one thing I'm finding is that unconditional love is not as important as caring for someone dispassionately. Without an emotional attachment it is much easier to make the right decision for that person. That's not knocking unconditional love, in fact I encourage people to aspire to it, the point is that if you do not have unconditional love for everyone, then it is completely conditional, the condition being that one person.

 

Aaron

 

i dont think they're mutually exclusive. when i practice "attitude no attitude" or dispassionate acceptance, i am full of love cause im calm and balanced. i think its More unconditional from that place

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The parent loving the child is just one example of what you might call unconditional love. Keep in mind there are some horrible mothers out there as well, so even if we may be biologically inclined to care for our child, it doesn't mean that everyone will.

 

As an aside, one thing I'm finding is that unconditional love is not as important as caring for someone dispassionately. Without an emotional attachment it is much easier to make the right decision for that person. That's not knocking unconditional love, in fact I encourage people to aspire to it, the point is that if you do not have unconditional love for everyone, then it is completely conditional, the condition being that one person.

 

Aaron

I agree on Your definition of unconditional love.

 

Lets say that an old person, with all the happiness of the world, is unconditionally loving everyone. Sure thats ok.

 

Lets say now that a sad person is unconditionally loving everyone. Woulden't you say that unconditional love is not so good for all situations?

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i dont think they're mutually exclusive. when i practice "attitude no attitude" or dispassionate acceptance, i am full of love cause im calm and balanced. i think its More unconditional from that place

 

As you basically stated, love is what we are. It is our base state. Or, Tao is love, love is Tao. :)

 

Love just is...

 

Yes, sadly, many mothers and fathers don't truly love their children. But, it is a better example of true love than a romantic couple. Relationships have a tendency to be more codependent (no matter how good the sex).

 

Finally, it is not really possible for an old man who truly loves everyone to be sad. Sadness comes from perceived desires not being met. If you truly love everyone, their is no separation and you are one with Tao.

 

:)

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The parents relationship with the child is full of wants, needs and conditions towards the child, so is it really unconditional? I have no doubt most parents would die for their children but they also completely mess them up and harm them in most cases. Love from an enlightened or somewhat realised person is different as there is no expectations or wants involved so their love is completely liberating, there are no catches or conditions so it is free.

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As you basically stated, love is what we are. It is our base state. Or, Tao is love, love is Tao. :)

 

Love just is...

 

Yes, sadly, many mothers and fathers don't truly love their children. But, it is a better example of true love than a romantic couple. Relationships have a tendency to be more codependent (no matter how good the sex).

 

Finally, it is not really possible for an old man who truly loves everyone to be sad. Sadness comes from perceived desires not being met. If you truly love everyone, their is no separation and you are one with Tao.

 

:)

 

Love is the Tao..

 

How the past spiritual masters are now turning over in their graves..

 

Talk about a disinfo campaign..

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Enjoying things in life is totally fine and doesn't hinder anything.

 

As my sifu often says, "There is nothing wrong with enjoying ... The troubles come from chasing after enjoyment."

 

Actually, that's not true. He often mentions it in the context of material possessions. "There is nothing wrong with driving a BMW. The trouble is wanting a BMW."

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Actually, that's not true. He often mentions it in the context of material possessions. "There is nothing wrong with driving a BMW. The trouble is wanting a BMW."

 

This is along similar lines to the Bible: the LOVE of money is the root of all evil. (though I don't know about it being "all," personally)

 

If we try to externalize the problem, foisting it on someone or something outside of ourselves, then we aren't dealing with the way in which we relate to that person or thing. It is our way of relating to ourselves and the world that matters. Blaming evil on people or things only leads one in circles of harmful repression.

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There is nowhere in this world you can go that you will not be surrounded by the children of the Tao.

 

Whether it is mountains, rivers, caves, forests, people, cars, sky scrapers, everyday 21 century life or secluded make believe spiritual mountain-ism. There is no escaping it.

 

Everything we see is a product of the Tao, it doesn't matter where you go, you cannot escape it, it permeates every corner of existence.

 

None of these elements are intrinsically bad or good. Their classifications and effects depend entirely on the doses with which they are consumed or interacted with.

 

My nana read me a story when i was a kid about the rock and the snake. The devil wanted to kill someone. The person sat on a cold stone for a long time. A snake proposed to do the job, but the stone said he's already taken care of it.

 

Anyway. My point is that, people whenever placed in an environment which is saturated with one extreme of the known spectrum, will always generate a desire for it's opposite. Yin and Yang naturally seek to balance each other out. If you are too Yang the Yang will seek Yin to square out and balance the system and vice-versa.

 

Going to the mountains to meditate and secluding yourself from life entirely and forever, is not a balanced way of life and sooner or later the elements in your body will seek to balance themselves out.

 

Didn't even Buddha say the middle way is best?

 

Either way, i've never secluded myself a top a mountain forever, so i wouldn't know. Maybe the sun and the moon are enough to balance both Yin and Yang in the body when it is away from all the other vampiric factors within the normal society which throw the natural body of balance. Perhaps by removing ourselves from society and disconnecting ourselves from unwanted Yang/Yin influence we can actually allow the Sun/Moon/Rivers/Mountains to bring our Qi to perfect balance without external meddling.

 

What do i know O_o

 

Point is. Within every environment, whether down town central or in the wilderness, you have the ability to decide what energy influences you more or less. Yin or Yang, by simply interacting with sources of those energies; more or less respectively. You can become as unhealthy in the mountains as you can in your house. No matter where you go, you will always be required to work to balance your body and mind.

 

Yes, the temptations are much greater living within our modern society, but you will reap much greater rewards and create a foundation for unbreakable discipline should you choose to temper your character amid these difficulties than bask in the relatively uncontested simplicity of a rural life.

 

Do you guys remember all the difficulties the three masters put Wang Liping through to temper his character?

Making him meditate in shit holes n what not? Why not just put him in a cave and cover him with feathers?

It's obvious. You cannot make strong that which is soft by treating it with softness and you cannot make soft that which is strong by treating it with hardness. You can however make hard the soft by treating it both with hardness AND softness as you can make soft the hard by treating it both with hardness and softness. Using only one extreme however is ineffective.

 

It is in the simple formula of creation.

 

TAO >> VOID >> YIN/YANG >> ALL THINGS (YOU/THE WORLD/HUMANITY)

 

To attempt to jump from Humanity to the Void is not possible without first mastering Yin and Yang, that means you can be neither Yin nor Yang, neither mountain boy nor city boy.

 

In accepting the way, there is no EXCLUSION. If you are EXCLUDING during your practice you are doing it wrong.

 

The right way is the acceptance of everything in balance yielding moderation.

Edited by effilang
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True love is a giving. Attachment is the expectation or desire for something in return.

 

:)

 

Couldn't have said it better.

 

Thanks

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There is nowhere in this world you can go that you will not be surrounded by the children of the Tao.

 

Whether it is mountains, rivers, caves, forests, people, cars, sky scrapers, everyday 21 century life or secluded make believe spiritual mountain-ism. There is no escaping it.

 

Everything we see is a product of the Tao, it doesn't matter where you go, you cannot escape it, it permeates every corner of existence.

 

None of these elements are intrinsically bad or good. Their classifications and effects depend entirely on the doses with which they are consumed or interacted with.

 

My nana read me a story when i was a kid about the rock and the snake. The devil wanted to kill someone. The person sat on a cold stone for a long time. A snake proposed to do the job, but the stone said he's already taken care of it.

 

Anyway. My point is that, people whenever placed in an environment which is saturated with one extreme of the known spectrum, will always generate a desire for it's opposite. Yin and Yang naturally seek to balance each other out. If you are too Yang the Yang will seek Yin to square out and balance the system and vice-versa.

 

Going to the mountains to meditate and secluding yourself from life entirely and forever, is not a balanced way of life and sooner or later the elements in your body will seek to balance themselves out.

 

Didn't even Buddha say the middle way is best?

 

Either way, i've never secluded myself a top a mountain forever, so i wouldn't know. Maybe the sun and the moon are enough to balance both Yin and Yang in the body when it is away from all the other vampiric factors within the normal society which throw the natural body of balance. Perhaps by removing ourselves from society and disconnecting ourselves from unwanted Yang/Yin influence we can actually allow the Sun/Moon/Rivers/Mountains to bring our Qi to perfect balance without external meddling.

 

What do i know O_o

 

Point is. Within every environment, whether down town central or in the wilderness, you have the ability to decide what energy influences you more or less. Yin or Yang, by simply interacting with sources of those energies; more or less respectively. You can become as unhealthy in the mountains as you can in your house. No matter where you go, you will always be required to work to balance your body and mind.

 

Yes, the temptations are much greater living within our modern society, but you will reap much greater rewards and create a foundation for unbreakable discipline should you choose to temper your character amid these difficulties than bask in the relatively uncontested simplicity of a rural life.

 

Do you guys remember all the difficulties the three masters put Wang Liping through to temper his character?

Making him meditate in shit holes n what not? Why not just put him in a cave and cover him with feathers?

It's obvious. You cannot make strong that which is soft by treating it with softness and you cannot make soft that which is strong by treating it with hardness. You can however make hard the soft by treating it both with hardness AND softness as you can make soft the hard by treating it both with hardness and softness. Using only one extreme however is ineffective.

 

It is in the simple formula of creation.

 

TAO >> VOID >> YIN/YANG >> ALL THINGS (YOU/THE WORLD/HUMANITY)

 

To attempt to jump from Humanity to the Void is not possible without first mastering Yin and Yang, that means you can be neither Yin nor Yang, neither mountain boy nor city boy.

 

In accepting the way, there is no EXCLUSION. If you are EXCLUDING during your practice you are doing it wrong.

 

The right way is the acceptance of everything in balance yielding moderation.

 

To become one with the Void, one only need to kill the Humanity within oneself and let the Godliness within oneself emerge.

 

Humans are always subnormal creatures compared to higher dimensional gods unless they start acting and thinking like higher dimensional gods themselves.

 

The Buddha taught different methods for people of various potentials.

 

The Middle way is only for the city people, the subnormal human losers who lack the will to give up anything and everything, even life itself if it is required, in their search for godliness and immortality.

Cultivation is only desiring what you should desire

Edited by tulku

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To become one with the Void, one only need to kill the Humanity within oneself and let the Godliness within oneself emerge.

 

Humans are always subnormal creatures compared to higher dimensional gods unless they start acting and thinking like higher dimensional gods themselves.

 

The Buddha taught different methods for people of various potentials.

 

The Middle way is only for the city people, the subnormal human losers who lack the will to give up anything and everything, even life itself if it is required, in their search for godliness and immortality.

Cultivation is only desiring what you should desire

A lot of things you have wrong here.

 

No, the Buddha taught that being a god is not conducive to enlightenment. Being human is the most potential filled birth among the six realms, so humanity should be cherished.

 

The middle way is only for city people? What? The Buddha taught the middle way because he saw that extreme ascetic cultivation, which you seem to favor, did not lead him to enlightenment.

 

Also, in Buddhism you do not become "one with the Void." You have all this stuff a little misunderstood.

Edited by Lucky7Strikes
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The Middle way is only for the city people, the subnormal human losers who lack the will to give up anything and everything, even life itself if it is required, in their search for godliness and immortality.

 

:wacko: a bodhisattva would never describe anyone like this ... you quote Buddha one minute and then say this in the next ... how do you reconcile these views?

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I'm enjoying being a human sub-loser city being so don't you go telling me it ought to be any other way for me. It will be if and when I want :-)

This morning, for example, I'm going out of the city, but the weather's crappy so I'm taking my sweet time. Because I feel like it. Now you go do whatever you want. You don't need to convince anyone, unless you do of course:-)

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If you can see clearly that us city dwelling losers who indulge in our senses only harm ourselves and each other through our wrong views and confused minds then why do you not have compassion for our needless suffering? Is your heart made of granite? Or does it give you a sense of superiority to look down on such people and get off on our suffering?

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:wacko: a bodhisattva would never describe anyone like this ... you quote Buddha one minute and then say this in the next ... how do you reconcile these views?

 

i have never saw myself as a bodhisattva

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A lot of things you have wrong here.

 

No, the Buddha taught that being a god is not conducive to enlightenment. Being human is the most potential filled birth among the six realms, so humanity should be cherished.

 

The middle way is only for city people? What? The Buddha taught the middle way because he saw that extreme ascetic cultivation, which you seem to favor, did not lead him to enlightenment.

 

Also, in Buddhism you do not become "one with the Void." You have all this stuff a little misunderstood.

 

At least the gods have the potential to know what or what not to do. Humans and lesser creatures are too blind and too addicted to their senses to tread the correct path.

 

The Buddha himself had to go through extreme ascetic cultivation before he can reach enlightenment.

 

How many city practitioners have achieved enlightenment? Versus how many practitioners who achieve enlightenment by renouncing the city way of life i.e. career, marriage, kids?

 

The numbers speak for themselves.

 

In Buddhism or Taoism or Hinduism, to become one with the void is the highest apex of the path. But you wouldn't know as you have obviously not become one with the void yet.

 

I do not think you are qualified to comment on this matter as you have not achieved any progress on the path of enlightenment yet.

 

All my words are gleaned from the observations of previous masters who have tread this path most of whom have renounced the city way of life.

Edited by tulku

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If you can see clearly that us city dwelling losers who indulge in our senses only harm ourselves and each other through our wrong views and confused minds then why do you not have compassion for our needless suffering? Is your heart made of granite? Or does it give you a sense of superiority to look down on such people and get off on our suffering?

 

it is precisely because i have compassion for your needless suffering that i am stating my views and observations of spirituality.. otherwise i would kept my mouth shut and avoided the countless naysayers who keep pounding on my words of truth..

 

anyway, i said what needed to be said and the rest is up to you..

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Love is the Tao..

 

How the past spiritual masters are now turning over in their graves..

 

Talk about a disinfo campaign..

 

As you go into the stillness yourself, tell me what you find...

 

:)

 

Also, it is not possible to repress or renunciate desires, it only strengthens the attachment. As Buddha said, you "drop" or let go of it.

 

:)

 

Finally, I agree with your point that Taoism & Buddhism are very similar and lead to the same place. But the approach is somewhat different. Buddha's path is the systematic peeling away of levels until nothing is left (Nothingness). Taoism is the total acceptance (and love :) ) of everything. In the end, everything and nothingness are the same. Just two sides of a coin.

 

:)

Edited by Jeff

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The Buddha himself had to go through extreme ascetic cultivation before he can reach enlightenment.

 

No, that's the very thing he ended up renouncing-- and in fact, he later had to convince his ascetic companions that he had not betrayed the principles of self-inquiry to which he was committed. He was committed to a path of self-inquiry, which certainly requires discipline, but not asceticism, nor the other extreme of self-indulgence. This was why the Buddha originally called it the Middle Way.

 

Don't bother citing the Buddhadharma as an endorsement to your personal ideology-- everything you are saying is contrary to the basic principles of both Theravada and Mahayana, right from the Buddha's very first sermon.

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Good wishes go to tulku who is to renounce the world:-)

Nah, I'm kidding. Do you know where the world is? I have an "ish" of an inkling of an idea:-)

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