Mind Watching

[Cat Pillar]

For the meditative technique that involves watching the mind, I'm having difficulty with something.

 

It's suggested to watch the mind, but not get involved with it, just letting the thoughts pass. This seems to be very difficult to do without an active interruption of the thought stream.

 

For example, a thought stream will arise, and usually instead of passing a story will start to form. Often this turns into a short daydream of some kind. This tends to decrease my awareness of the thought stream as the story grows.

 

Is the idea simply to build on the ability to maintain awareness of the thought-stream as it develops, or is the technique of watching thoughts supposed to prevent the stream from developing in the first place?

[steve]

For the meditative technique that involves watching the mind, I'm having difficulty with something.

 

It's suggested to watch the mind, but not get involved with it, just letting the thoughts pass. This seems to be very difficult to do without an active interruption of the thought stream.

 

For example, a thought stream will arise, and usually instead of passing a story will start to form. Often this turns into a short daydream of some kind. This tends to decrease my awareness of the thought stream as the story grows.

 

Is the idea simply to build on the ability to maintain awareness of the thought-stream as it develops, or is the technique of watching thoughts supposed to prevent the stream from developing in the first place?

This is a really nice description of the experience.

 

The idea is to simply continue to observe. Sometimes you're sitting on the bank of a stream watching a leaf float by. The next moment you realize that you're sitting on the leaf and don't even know how long you've been there or how far you've come. Then you back track and see what made you step onto the leaf and look at the twists and turns in the stream... and on it goes....

 

So the idea is simply to continue to patiently observe the course of your thoughts as they come and go. And when they catch you up, sooner or later you realize this and go back to observation. One easy way to look at it is simply to avoid adding to the conversation. Just listen, pay attention, don't contribute anything. There's more than enough there already.

 

Over time, the observing mind will begin to stabilize and step onto the leaf less frequently and for shorter periods of time. Then other things come up... As far as preventing the stream from developing in the first place, I don't think this is a productive way to approach the exercise. It simply creates conflict and disappointment. Just watch and perfect your skills of patience. Over time you may notice patterns, you may get frustrated and angry, and you may eventually find it entertaining. You may even begin to like yourself more...

 

[ChiDragon]

1. For the meditative technique that involves watching the mind, I'm having difficulty with something.

 

2. It's suggested to watch the mind, but not get involved with it, just letting the thoughts pass. This seems to be very difficult to do without an active interruption of the thought stream.

 

3. For example, a thought stream will arise, and usually instead of passing a story will start to form. Often this turns into a short daydream of some kind. This tends to decrease my awareness of the thought stream as the story grows.

 

4. Is the idea simply to build on the ability to maintain awareness of the thought-stream as it develops, or is the technique of watching thoughts supposed to prevent the stream from developing in the first place?

 

1. There is a problem here. When in doubt, then don't do it.

2. Just concentrate on your breathing when you meditate; that will help you to let the thoughts pass.

3. That is the thing that you don't want to do to decrease your awareness.

4. It is the technique of not to be watching any thoughts to prevent the stream from developing in the first place.

 

Taoist meditation is to have a blank mind, no thoughts.

Edited August 20, 2011 by ChiDragon

[C T]

First of all, its good to know what 'Mind' is, its real nature. Some useful insight into this -

[thelerner]

I thought Steve's answer was right on.

 

 

One 'trick' is mentally asking 'What will my next thought be?'.

 

There should be a gap of silence after asking. Somehow it primes the emptiness pump. I'll ask, get a little emptier, smile into it, unfocus.

 

Its not meant to be repeated as a mantra, just a little squeegee erasing. Works for me. The Infinitesmile.org has some great podcasts on the mind and the role of the observer.

 

 

Michael

[Cat Pillar]

steve,

 

Thank you for that detailed answer! I like your leaf in a stream analogy.

 

Much of my questioning was based on whether or not interrupting the thought stream was practical - I have noticed that attempting to "force" a state results in tension, but the frequency with which I step onto the leaf has been frustrating.

 

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ChiDragon,

 

1. There is a problem here. When in doubt, then don't do it.

2. Just concentrate on your breathing when you meditate; that will help you to let the thoughts pass.

3. That is the thing that you don't want to do to decrease your awareness.

4. It is the technique of not to be watching any thoughts to prevent the stream from developing in the first place.

 

Taoist meditation is to have a blank mind, no thoughts.

 

Even with breathing techniques it is easy to get lost in a thought stream. In my experience an active intention to have a blank mind creates more activity, and results in tension. A blank mind is indeed the state I am hoping to experience, but I can't force the clouds to go away by will. I can try to shove them aside, but that seems to only condense them into a smaller space - easier to ignore for a time, but at the cost of solidifying their presence.

 

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CowTao,

 

Thank you for the link and the suggestion. I'll have to watch that when I'm on a computer with sound. Are there any written resources you could recommend as well?

 

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Michael,

 

That's a great trick! I look forward to giving that a shot in my next meditation.

 

Are there any podcasts you would recommend specifically?

[de_paradise]

Cat, if the nattering gets carried away, feel free and interrupt it, you dont have to be so pristine grade A student and hope it will die down itself each time. Why waste 15 minutes watching yourself talk to yourself when you can hack the thoughts off there and then? Always have a plan B. You know, alot of meditations have a kind of pre-meditational something to either exhaust the body or the mind first, from a yoga asana routine, or a zen koan. Dont be a hero. Whatever works.

[Sunya]

I just found this site/book today by good fortune. It's very good, so I just want to share it with you. http://www.chagchen.com/index.htm

 

It's Mahamudra meditation, which is a gradual teaching of concentration/insight practices to realize the true nature of mind. The Resting Mind series will particularly be very helpful for you as you right now, and I wouldn't attempt the later insight practices until you can rest in tranquility for long periods of time. Also, once you can rest in tranquility, all you have to do is relax your focus and let thoughts arise. Then it's easy to rest without getting lost in thoughts. Without a basis in tranquility, it's very easy to get lost in thoughts.

[Cat Pillar]

Cat, if the nattering gets carried away, feel free and interrupt it, you dont have to be so pristine grade A student and hope it will die down itself each time. Why waste 15 minutes watching yourself talk to yourself when you can hack the thoughts off there and then? Always have a plan B. You know, alot of meditations have a kind of pre-meditational something to either exhaust the body or the mind first, from a yoga asana routine, or a zen koan. Dont be a hero. Whatever works.

 

But if I don't get straight A's, my parents will take my allowance away!

 

The question from my perspective is a little more subtle than that, though. Awareness of being lost in a thought stream tends to interrupt it automatically. Once I recognize the nattering, it resolves itself. At least until the next story develops.

 

It's the getting carried away itself that I'm looking at.

 

 

Edit:

 

Thank you, Sunya! Resting Mind has a very pleasant sounding name. I look forward to reading through the book.

Edited August 21, 2011 by Cat Pillar

[de_paradise]

Ah, ok. There is no one answer to the questions at hand because there are several aspects of the technique "mind watching" at play here, and depending upon your experience one aspect can be emphasized as more or less important. So for instance, having a relatively still mind is a wisdom or insight practise, but it is also run of the mill meditation where the energy bodies have a favorable stillness to increase their cleaning and deblocking. Perhaps Steve would be more towards insight, and I'm in the trenches with all my cheats and gambits, just getting it done.

 

"Is the idea simply to build on the ability to maintain awareness of the thought-stream as it develops, or is the technique of watching thoughts supposed to prevent the stream from developing in the first place?"

 

It depends where you are at. In my experience, the real goal is neither. Stillness of thoughts are just kind of an aspect of letting go, or relaxing the mind. The relative evolution of your energy body determines how much progress you can possibly make at any time during meditation. So for example, me 2 years ago would have to meditate for 1 hour to acheive the progress of what I can do in 5 minutes now, even if my meditation is interrupted by my thinking about my groceries etc. All that energy getting conducted in more and more as the energy body evolves.

 

Definitely "Is the idea simply to build on the ability to maintain awareness of the thought-stream as it develops" is not right. This is a basic ability one should aquire, but it doesnt really get more complicated than that.

 

And as you said, when you bring attention to the thoughts, they naturally die down. I would footnote, that there is an intention involved there underneath the attention, and its the intention that brings them down. This is why you have noting practise, or you can mentally tag the thoughts, or many other things. But without the intention underlying the noticing, it wont work, and you will go on talking to yourself.

 

I would also add that when you do have thought disturbances, and you do the work of noticing it and then it disappears, something kind of magical happens: you go slightly more deeper into the meditation, deeper than if you had had not thought disturbance to begin with. This is where meditation starts to get fun, like a video game, not some torturous blank mind state. And this harkens back to my first point about energy body evolution, because thats where things really start to happen as far as your qi body deblocking, growing, and becoming able to conduct more energy--the virtuous circle continues--because thats how the mind is able to relax and become more spacious in a REAL way, not just a fake way, which is what people do when they simply block their thoughts, or pretend that they are good meditators because they were able to keep very still for an extended period. The real way is about greater energy, relatively more open chakras, the mind is not the same, it has achieved progress.

 

There is also the insight approach, which perhaps involves flipping oneself into higher states due to ones extreme calmness of mind. I dont claim any expertise in that. Maybe thats what you are going for. I'm in the trenches with the energies and the nei-dan, and a bit of insight by accident.

 

**edit: hope you can find something useful in this jumble

Edited August 21, 2011 by de_paradise

[Cat Pillar]

de_paradise,

 

And as you said, when you bring attention to the thoughts, they naturally die down. I would footnote, that there is an intention involved there underneath the attention, and its the intention that brings them down. This is why you have noting practise, or you can mentally tag the thoughts, or many other things. But without the intention underlying the noticing, it wont work, and you will go on talking to yourself.

 

I see what you mean, thank you for pointing that out.

 

I would also add that when you do have thought disturbances, and you do the work of noticing it and then it disappears, something kind of magical happens: you go slightly more deeper into the meditation, deeper than if you had had not thought disturbance to begin with. This is where meditation starts to get fun, like a video game, not some torturous blank mind state. And this harkens back to my first point about energy body evolution, because thats where things really start to happen as far as your qi body deblocking, growing, and becoming able to conduct more energy--the virtuous circle continues--because thats how the mind is able to relax and become more spacious in a REAL way, not just a fake way, which is what people do when they simply block their thoughts, or pretend that they are good meditators because they were able to keep very still for an extended period. The real way is about greater energy, relatively more open chakras, the mind is not the same, it has achieved progress.

 

There is also the insight approach, which perhaps involves flipping oneself into higher states due to ones extreme calmness of mind. Maybe thats what you are going for. I'm in the trenches with the energies and the nei-dan, and a bit of insight by accident.

 

I am quite interested in the higher states, and having an extreme calmness of mind. But the evolution of the energy body is actually one of my primary goals, so your response here is very interesting to me. I am practicing meditation to help bring balance, clarity, and "purity" (clean mind) as a foundation for further energy practices.

[C T]

I like what Dp has forwarded. Shows experiential depth and good understanding.

 

 

 

Cat Pillar - If you combine the material that Sunya gave you, and the series of videos on the Mahamudra teachings, which is very clear, simple, and precise btw, i believe you will be able to lift your meditation to yet another level. I think your seriousness in this investigation will get you the kind of results you are aiming for soon enough, just keep digging!! You are on the right track.

 

One thing i want to say is that the goal in this is not to reach a Mind that is blank or empty of thoughts. This is a false route, and tend to lead the practitioner into false expectations, and hence, false results.

 

For me, it is to keep returning to the space where i can remain 'struggle free', in that i am able to catch glimpses of my self not having to chase after any thoughts which i happen to find desirable, or to avoid the unpleasant ones, and also, to be comfortable enough if once in a while, i say to myself that its okay too if i indulge my desires (like popping out when i get the whimsical need to satisfy my inflamed body with a tub of soothing Haagen Dazs ice-cream, for example ) .... the idea is not to beat oneself up at all, if possible. This is all very clearly explained by the Tai Situ, the teacher in that series of videos i linked you with. He relates effectively with much humor and humility.

 

All the best!

Edited August 21, 2011 by CowTao

[Cat Pillar]

I appreciate your encouragement, CowTao! I will bear in mind the warning about empty mind as a goal. I've already begun reading the material Sunya posted a link to. I plan on starting the video series when I get home from work this morning.

 

This thread is helping to awaken some more passion for my practice, something I've been lacking lately. Very refreshing!

[Jetsun]

I would trust your own observations and experiments in this area, I expect you will find that trying to interrupt the thoughts and mindstream will just make things worse and stress you out, any sort of effort to control is counter productive. Notice your attitude towards yourself when you loose the ability to observe and how that attitude helps or hinders you, what gets better practical results being harsh with yourself when failing to observe or being gentle, if your attitude toward yourself when you fail to meditate improves just a bit then that is a good achievement imo.

[Cat Pillar]

I would trust your own observations and experiments in this area, I expect you will find that trying to interrupt the thoughts and mindstream will just make things worse and stress you out, any sort of effort to control is counter productive. Notice your attitude towards yourself when you loose the ability to observe and how that attitude helps or hinders you, what gets better practical results being harsh with yourself when failing to observe or being gentle, if your attitude toward yourself when you fail to meditate improves just a bit then that is a good achievement imo.

 

Yes, I have already seen the detrimental effects of trying to force anything in meditation.

 

That is good advice about attitude, though. It's advice I've heard before, but it's also something I tend to lose sight of now and then. I appreciate the reminder.

[Apech]

Sorry to others who mean this sincerely but a blank mind is not the goal.

[Jeff]

Definitely "Is the idea simply to build on the ability to maintain awareness of the thought-stream as it develops" is not right. This is a basic ability one should aquire, but it doesnt really get more complicated than that.

 

And as you said, when you bring attention to the thoughts, they naturally die down. I would footnote, that there is an intention involved there underneath the attention, and its the intention that brings them down. This is why you have noting practise, or you can mentally tag the thoughts, or many other things. But without the intention underlying the noticing, it wont work, and you will go on talking to yourself.

 

I would slightly disagree with this point... When you follow a thought (or chase it), you give it energy and it gets stronger. Just as you try not to think of something and that thought gets stuck in your head. Thoughts die down when you don't give them attention. If you watch the creation of a thought, you can feel the energy. Bringing your awareness/presence to bear (but not with attention to the thought) robs the thought of ongoing energy.

 

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Sorry to others who mean this sincerely but a blank mind is not the goal.

 

The more I'm finding about Taoist meditation, the more I'm seeing that a natural state without thoughts is necessary for the better stuff to happen. It seems to me like getting to that place is step one in the meditation and then other benefits and things unfold or are possible. body focus and energy focus is enhanced when the thoughts are suspended or subsided, in my experience, though maybe neither one is the ultimate reason for meditation and practice.

[de_paradise]

Daniel Ingrams instructions

I would slightly disagree with this point... When you follow a thought (or chase it), you give it energy and it gets stronger. Just as you try not to think of something and that thought gets stuck in your head. Thoughts die down when you don't give them attention. If you watch the creation of a thought, you can feel the energy. Bringing your awareness/presence to bear (but not with attention to the thought) robs the thought of ongoing energy.

 

 

Well, there are thoughts and there are thoughts, as with attention and attention. If you have done this type of meditation you may understand the quality of thoughts that tend to come into one's head, and the type of attention one gives, which is a kind of tagging, or noticing, not a full-on attention that you get sucked into the conversation. A very well known form of this meditation is known as "noting" and is practised by the Burmese Buddhists, and if you want instructions there's Daniel Ingrams instructions. Daniel Ingrams instructions

Edited August 22, 2011 by de_paradise

[Jeff]

Daniel Ingrams instructions

 

Well, there are thoughts and there are thoughts, as with attention and attention. If you have done this type of meditation you may understand the quality of thoughts that tend to come into one's head, and the type of attention one gives, which is a kind of tagging, or noticing, not a full-on attention that you get sucked into the conversation. A very well known form of this meditation is known as "noting" and is practised by the Burmese Buddhists, and if you want instructions there's Daniel Ingrams instructions. Daniel Ingrams instructions

 

Sounds like we are saying the same thing. "Noting" or watching the thought is a good way to develop presence or "witness" state.

 

[Cat Pillar]

I enjoyed the article on noting. Thanks for sharing, de_paradise!

[Kali Yuga]

The thing is to have a mind that is clean from its own refuse. Without a shining light that is generated from its own consciousness the mind can not distinguish between its own filthy thoughts and emotional patterns from one that is clean and clear. This requires effort. At first it is incredibly hard to see how the mind and the thoughts produce their own pain and pleasure. But eventually the mind catches on to its own delusions quickly if it gets enough practice. The true yogin has the power of arresting his own mental and psychic pain because of the fact that he sees which parts of his mind and emotions generate destructive emotions and thoughts. The power of the true yogin is not the power of making fire with one's own hands, but stopping the bullets of one's own thoughts and feeling before they do any damage - through strength, self honesty and fierce awareness.

 

What thoughts make me feel bad or insecure? What is causing my uneasiness, this unshakable feeling of general paranoia ? It is not easy to do this sort of training, because the mind itself resists in the same way that a sleeper refuses to awaken. It takes an unbelievably courageous and honest person to complete this step given that at any moment if one chooses to be lazy or refuse to stand strong and face one's own darkest insecurities and fears, one falls immediately back into the prior state of limbo. It is so incredibly easy to deceive one's self and yet so hard.

 

What is particularly bad is when one has already for a split moment seen all the ugliness inherent with all this psychic garbage it has produced, but chooses to not be strong or brave enough to face its own self. ONe can choose to deny this but then has to live with knowing that ones self is a hypocrite. It's a torment resulting from clashing parts of consciousness - the passive part that wants to sleep versus the active part that has seen just what a horror things have become. This lasts forever until on gathers the courage to truly utilize self-honesty.

 

Sleep is so much more blissful given that it is unconscious and thus non responsible, and hence a bystander in its own event stream, compared a mind that has awakened, and has seen through its own delusions and taken responsibility of its own refuse (read: crappy emotional and mental patterns), a mind that is aware completely of its own self. and as such takes care of its own psychic garbage and does its own cleaning, resulting in the clean aware light of its own being.

 

It takes more energy at first to break through the threshold of unconsciousness to consciousness. This is where the dilemma of hard work being exhausting short term but easy long term, versus laziness resulting in easiness but suffering prolonged long term, comes into play.

 

To keep it short and sweet, observe your own thoughts and emotions as if they were someone else's - with dispassion and not with involvement. It does not matter if you catch yourself unconscious in any circumstance- have compassion for yourself and continue on. What matters is that you practice observing what mental and emotional patterns make you lose awareness - how you feel. If your friend shouts at you do you get upset? Why? Are you reactive emotionally or pro active? Do the way others act and feel control the way you act and feel? This will tell you whether you are awake or not.

 

When you can truly apply this standard to the thoughts and feelings of not just others, but your own self, and your own emotions and thoughts are processed and observed dispassionately before they control you, you will have a glimpse of what it truly feels to have a clean consciousness - an awake mind, free from the pain of mindless chatter and the emotional stress that comes from automatic reaction to random mental and emotional stimuli.

Edited August 25, 2011 by Kali Yuga

[Cat Pillar]

What an interesting reply, Kali Yuga. It's fascinating to see how applicable much of your post is to the recent post I made in the "Suicide, evolutionary perspective" thread - one I made before reading your post.

 

I am in precisely that position where I have seen the ugliness of my psychic garbage, and must now decide whether I have the courage to face it.