Change, return, success...

[Taomeow]

[zerostao]

thunder within the earth

the image of the turning point

thus the kings of antiquity closed the passes

at the time of the solstice

merchants and strangers did not go about

and the ruler

did not travel thru the provinces

[steve]

I'm pleased to see the introduction of the new Taoist Discussion forum and look forward to participating.

[Marblehead]

I'm pleased to see the introduction of the new Taoist Discussion forum and look forward to participating.

 

WoW! I didn't even see that until I read this post.

 

Yes, I think most here can understand that I too am pleased.

[Marblehead]

Some nice pictures in that video.

 

Return is success, is it not? Change? Can't stop that even if we try.

[suninmyeyes]

Shame,this video is blocked over here.

Edited August 12, 2011 by suninmyeyes

[johndoe2012]

Can't see it either.

[Taomeow]

Oh... sorry it's not coming through everywhere, in fact my version proved glitchy too, I thought it was my computer acting up the day I posted it, but it is consistently glitchy, turns out. Well, Suninmyeyes and Chris D, you can perhaps listen to Syd Barrett the great Pink Floyd patriarch singing Chapter 24 (going verbatim with Wilhelm/Baynes translation, abridged -- thanks for the additional lines, Zerostao!) if you just punch it in youtube search, minus the pictures...

 

I've always thought that Pink Floyd gained some straightforward mass appeal but lost some magic when Syd was gone. They didn't sing the I Ching anymore, in particular... and the eerie otherworldly sound, as elusive as magic always is, was diligently imitated later but never again came from the upper dantien.

 

I wanted to open the new forum with this east-meets-west song because... well, because change is return and return is success, just as Marblehead pointed out.

[Desert Eagle]

Can't see it either.

 

try to copy/paste the link to a site called clipconverter.cc if you want.

Edited August 13, 2011 by Desert Eagle

[Mal]

you can perhaps listen to Syd Barrett the great Pink Floyd patriarch singing Chapter 24 (going verbatim with Wilhelm/Baynes translation, abridged -- thanks for the additional lines, Zerostao!) if you just punch it in youtube search, minus the pictures...

 

I fouud 1 with pictures, but it's quite

 

alternative

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwGtwUYPH6g

[Apech]

...

 

I've always thought that Pink Floyd gained some straightforward mass appeal but lost some magic when Syd was gone. They didn't sing the I Ching anymore, in particular... and the eerie otherworldly sound, as elusive as magic always is, was diligently imitated later but never again came from the upper dantien.

 

...

 

 

Agreed. Commercial vs. creative.

[lienshan]

thunder within the earth

the image of the turning point

thus the kings of antiquity closed the passes

at the time of the solstice

merchants and strangers did not go about

and the ruler

did not travel thru the provinces

trigram EARTH (the receptive)

trigram THUNDER (the arousing)

The James Legge translation and the chinese text: http://ctext.org/book-of-changes/fu

 

(The trigram representing) the earth and that for thunder in the midst of it form Fu.

The ancient kings, in accordance with this, on the day. of the (winter) solstice,

shut the gates of the passes (from one state to another),

so that the travelling merchants could not (then) pursue their journeys,

nor the princes go on with the inspection of their states.

[Taomeow]

trigram EARTH (the receptive)

trigram THUNDER (the arousing)

The James Legge translation and the chinese text: http://ctext.org/book-of-changes/fu

 

(The trigram representing) the earth and that for thunder in the midst of it form Fu.

The ancient kings, in accordance with this, on the day. of the (winter) solstice,

shut the gates of the passes (from one state to another),

so that the travelling merchants could not (then) pursue their journeys,

nor the princes go on with the inspection of their states.

Thank you, Lienshan.

 

Here's a sample of what the Eranos I Ching (Rudolf Ritsema and Shantena Augusto Sabbadini) does:

 

24 Return -- Fu

 

The situation described by this hexagram is characterized by the re-emergence of something past, returning to a previous time or place or retracing a path in order to correct one's mistakes.

 

Image of the situation

 

Return.

Growing.

Emerging, entering, without affliction.

Partners come, without fault.

Reversing: returning (to) one's dao.

(The) seventh day comes return.

Harvesting: possessing directed going.

 

Fields of meaning:

Return, FU: go back, turn or lead back; recur, reappear, come again; restore, renew, recover; return to an earlier time or place. Ideogram: step and retrace a path. Grow, HENG: heavenly influence pervading and nourishing all things; prosper, succeed, expand, develop; effective, favorable; quality of summer and South, second stage of the Time Cycle. With pronunciation XIANG: offer a sacrifice; offer a gift to a superior; accept, enjoy.

 

And so on for each word...

 

then come

 

Patterns of Wisdom

(words in brackets absent from the original text, added by translators very tentatively, different in fonts to make sure the reader does not mistake the stylistic organization toward a sentence that is easier on the uppermost crust of one's neocortex for the real thing -- the real thing, in the meantime, is processed a level below, at least, and on several levels of meaning simultaneously... They say interpreting the images of the I Ching is like interpreting dreams -- complete certainty is laughable, but getting the drift of a dream is an innate skill all undamaged humans either have or can learn.)

 

Thunder Located (in the) earth('s) center. Return.

(The) earlier kings used culminating sun (to) bar (the) passages.

Bargaining sojourners (used culminating sun) not (to) move.

(The) crown prince (used culminating sun) not (to) inspect (on all) sides.

 

with the following Field of Meanings for the "earlier kings": XIAN WANG: ideal rulers of old; the golden age, primal time; mythical sages in harmony with nature

 

 

and with one of the meanings of "bargain" being "hour before sunrise and sunset." This is one of the delicious hidden double-talk inner metaphors of the I Ching (little by little you start discerning them with practice... and suspecting there's thousands -- maybe millions -- maybe billions! and there's triple-talk and quadruple-talk ones there too... perhaps trillions?..). So, if we take "hour before sunrise and sunset" for the second-layer meaning of the double-meaningful "bargaining sojourners," and "harmony with nature" for the "earlier kings," and also notice that "crown prince" may or may not be "crown prince" because the field of meanings includes "empress, mother of a prince..."

 

 

...but at this point you have to be dreaming the I Ching dream of time and space and it's really easy to get lost in a dream, as everyone knows, so studying the I Ching is the art of lucid dreaming within its dreams of time and space... then doing something that will affect the waking reality. And I've done it many times but still it sends shivers down my spine every time. (Anyone has a shivering emoticon? )

[lienshan]

Thank you, Lienshan.

The hexagram means "Return" in the Zhouyi Book of Change, because the Zhou worshipped Heaven,

and the first hexagram in their I Ching was the hexagram "Heaven":

 

 

"Return" means, that the unbroken lines are waxing from below towards all unbroken

The same hexagram meant "Beginning" in the former Shang dynasty Book of Change,

because their first hexagram was "Earth":

 

 

But what's most interesting are in my opinion the eight trigrams,

because they are described in Da Yi Sheng Shui (the Great One generates water),

that is one of the oldest known daoist scripts; if the Huang-Lao school was daoist?

 

The can be a lump of earth and overflowing causes the envy-made Classic of everything.

 

 

To administer heaven isn't enough because:

The lowest height of west and north acts powerful.

Earth and heaven are not enough:

The highest low of east and south acts powerful.

The moreover surplus from the lowest of the not enough from what's highest is

the moreover surplus from the highest of the not enough from what's lowest.

 

Try identify the two in bold in the trigram scheme (north is below in China)?

 

The trigrams Kan "Water/Cold" and Li "Heat/Qi" are described:

 

The return of cold and heat mutually assist by completing damp and fluid.

Edited August 13, 2011 by lienshan

[Taomeow]

The original I Ching arrangement is circular (see my avatar ). King Wen wrote the "linear" I Ching while imprisoned by the Shang tyrant. There was no Book of Changes of the Shang dynasty. The Zhouyi is the arrangement of the trigrams by the Duke of Zhou, King Wen's son, which is the most widespread version today and for quite a long time. In this arrangement, Heaven is the first hexagram. There is no record of either one of the authors worshipping heaven however. The reason Heaven is the first hexagram is very well explained in Ta Chuan (The Great Treatise on the Changes). The Zhouyi takes a position of opposition to Heaven-only rule ("the arrogant dragon will have reasons to repent") as expressed in the first hexagram, far from a worshipping attitude. Interpreting Heaven as the ideal and "return" as the return of yang is perhaps Confucian, you do find many of his pyramid-scheme ideas in many commentaries, but they are not the original ideas of the I Ching's authors.

 

Da Yi Sheng Shui (like the original circular I Ching and all things taoist proper) follows Fuxi's arrangement of the eight trigrams derived from Hetu and Luoshu. The oldest "seed" texts of taoism are not texts -- they are diagrams. Interpretations of the diagrams via added words is human; the diagrams, however, are divine.

 

The Xiantian diagram you've posted seems to be commented on by someone addressing (or trying to figure out, rather) why it couldn't stay put. "The lower height of west and north" means Northwest, the hexagram Zhen, associated with Spring and thunder and the first impulse of motion within the stillness of Xiantian. "Acts powerful" refers to this impulse. The text you posted explains Xiantian-to-Houtian transformation which rearranges the perfect balance of the eight primal trigrams and sets the manifest world in motion. "Return" is a two-way road in taoism, you don't "return to Heaven," rather, Pre-heaven returns to Post-heaven and Post-heaven returns to Pre-heaven. "To and fro goes the Way."

 

King Wen and the Duke of Zhou were very aware of this dynamic process.

[Stigweard]

 

"Revival. Proceed without harm and with friends. The beginning of a new cycle comes on the seventh day. One is benefited by going somewhere."

 

In this hexagram we see Earth over Thunder.

 

At this time negative energy is beginning to decline and postive yang energy is returning. Thunder grows and breaks through all obstacles; even Earth cannot stop its explosive nature. This symbolizes revival and is a good time to gather supportive energy.

 

The clap of "thunder beneath the earth" can also apply to the awakening of people who are in "hibernation" as a result of selfishness, narrow mindedness and negativity in order for the to return to the positive sphere. If one's motivation is correct, righteousness becomes the supporting power that can help one overcome obstacles and thus return to the natural path of life.

 

The solid Yang line is like a seed beneath the earth. The essence within the shape or shell of the seed is the real root or "spirit" of life. Without spirit, there cannot be renewal, and without a peaceful environment, nothing can grow. At this stage of renewal, yang energy as the main life forceis weak. However, this position does not hinder one's progress. Remember that, when negative yin energy, which is an obstacle for the life force, reaches its extreme, it creates an opportunity for positive yang energy to return.

 

Even though the renewal energy is weak at the moment, negativity is giving way to light.

 

Ni Hua-ching

[lienshan]

Edited August 14, 2011 by lienshan