How do you approach the Tao Te Ching...?

[ChiDragon]

There are some people who study the Tao Te Ching for spiritual reasons; and some want to learn the true Taoist philosophy and the true sayings of the TTC. IMO People who study for spiritual reasons may interpret the Tao Te Ching any way they want to for their personal needs. However, for those who has a purpose of learning the true meaning of the classic text, how would you go about learning the TTC...??? What is your approach...???

[Marblehead]

I suppose it is a given that I discuss the TTC for the life philosophy guidance it offers.

 

What is your approach...???

 

Talk with people like you and others.

[JohnC]

There are some people who study the Tao Te Ching for spiritual reasons; and some want to learn the true Taoist philosophy and the true sayings of the TTC. IMO People who study for spiritual reasons may interpret the Tao Te Ching any way they want to for their personal needs. However, for those who has a purpose of learning the true meaning of the classic text, how would you go about learning the TTC...??? What is your approach...???

 

Experience it through practice...

 

Hate dogma, and those that study to be 'superior'.

 

John

[Nanashi]

IMO People who study for spiritual reasons may interpret the Tao Te Ching any way they want to for their personal needs.

 

This has been happening to all texts since reading and writing began. Even oral traditions were interpreted differently, throughout time. Once the author of an original text is dead, and hitherto did not say any more explaining their "true meaning", then that true meaning is lost and can only be discussed to create meaning. Think of how the Christian bible has been edited, or "translated" (all translations are interpretations).

 

I recall Hesse being disappointed in the preface to Steppenwolf, that hippies (decades after the book being published) co-opted his works for an excuse to do drugs, instead as seeing the wisdom in existential crisis and spiritual transformation. Even writers of the last century, when we have recordings of interviews with them-- we still do not know if a hidden "true meaning" or motive is active. Were Huxley and Orwell warning the masses of the future, or writing a blueprint for the leaders of the future?

 

Everything created is subjective; either by intention or not.

[ChiDragon]

Experience it through practice...

 

Hate dogma, and those that study to be 'superior'.

 

John

 

How do you know that you are experiencing Tao....???

[Cobie]

On 17/06/2011 at 8:58 PM, ChiDragon said:

.. What is your approach...???

I look up the possible meanings of each character in the Kroll. Then see which choices make a coherent whole of a chapter.

[awaken]

When I was in college, the school required general education courses, so I took Lao-Zhuang philosophy as an elective
Then I went to buy Cai Zhizhong's Laozi comic book
Laozi and Zhuangzi entered my mind when I was very young

 

 

當我念大學的時候，學校規定要修通識課程，我就選修了老莊哲學
然後我就去買了蔡志忠的老子漫畫書
老子和莊子在我很年輕的時候，就進入了我的思想

 

 

 

This comic book was later drawn into an animation

Edited January 3, 2023 by awaken

[Cobie]

21 minutes ago, awaken said:

Laozi and Zhuangzi entered my mind when I was very young

I have been reading the DDJ since 1972.  I have no interest in the Zhuangzi.

 

Edited January 3, 2023 by Cobie

[awaken]

1 hour ago, Cobie said:

I have been reading the DDJ since 1972.  I have no interest in the Zhuangzi.

 

 

I'm from Taiwan, and there's nothing special about reading the Tao Te Ching

You are a Westerner, why did you become interested in Tao Te Ching so long ago?

[Cobie]

.

Edited June 21, 2023 by Cobie

[awaken]

It is really not easy to make a breakthrough in thought

 

The persistence of one thought can make a group of people unable to find a way out for a lifetime

[awaken]

https://ctext.org/wiki.pl?if=gb&chapter=784211

 

The Lao Tzu unearthed from the bamboo slips in Guodian is only 300 years away from the time when Lao Tzu lived
It should be the closest to Lao Tzu's original version

 

郭店楚簡出土的老子離老子生存的年代只差了三百年
應該是最接近老子原版的

 

Judging from the Lao Tzu unearthed from Chu Bamboo Slips in Guodian, the modern version of the Tao Te Ching has 3,000 more words, and there are many unreasonable things in it
These unreasonable things are not found in the version of Laozi unearthed in Guodian Chu bamboo slips

Therefore, the most original version of Lao Tzu is no longer Mawangdui's silk script Lao Tzu, but the two thousand-character Lao Tzu on the Guodian Chu Bamboo Slips.

 

從郭店楚簡出土的老子來看，現代版的道德經多了三千字，其中也有很多不合理之處
這些不合理之處，在郭店楚簡出土的老子版本裡面是沒有的

所以要研究老子最原始的版本已經不是馬王堆的帛書老子了，而是郭店楚簡的兩千字老子

 

 

 

Edited January 4, 2023 by awaken

[Cobie]

11 hours ago, awaken said:

The Lao Tzu … in Guodian is only 300 years away from the time when Lao Tzu lived
It should be the closest to Lao Tzu's original version

 

Yes I agree, I always use the Guodian script if available. 

 

Quote

… Judging from the Lao Tzu unearthed from Chu Bamboo Slips in Guodian, the modern version of the Tao Te Ching has 3,000 more words, … 

 

Most academics assume the Guodian script found is an incomplete script. 

 

Quote

… the modern version of the Tao Te Ching has 3,000 more words, and there are many unreasonable things in it
These unreasonable things are not found in the version of Laozi unearthed in Guodian Chu bamboo slips

Therefore, the most original version of Lao Tzu is no longer Mawangdui's silk script Lao Tzu, but the two thousand-character Lao Tzu on the Guodian Chu Bamboo Slips.

This is a list of the chapters that are (according to Henricks) in the modern Laozi but not in the Guodian:

1,3-4,6-8,10-12,14,21-24,26-29,33-34,36,38-39,42-43,47,49-51,53,58,60-62,65,67-81

In all the Guodian does only have 31 of the modern chapters. 

 

Do you really think that none of the 50 chapters left out are part of the Laozi?

 

 

Edited January 4, 2023 by Cobie

[awaken]

7 hours ago, Cobie said:

 

Yes I agree, I always use the Guodian script if available. 

 

 

Most academics assume the Guodian script found is an incomplete script. 

 

This is a list of the chapters that are (according to Henricks) in the modern Laozi but not in the Guodian:

1,3-4,6-8,10-12,14,21-24,26-29,33-34,36,38-39,42-43,47,49-51,53,58,60-62,65,67-81

In all the Guodian does only have 31 of the modern chapters. 

 

Do you really think that none of the 50 chapters left out are part of the Laozi?

 

 

 

there is no evidence that there is
there is no evidence that no

Therefore, we must first use the Guodian version of Lao Tzu as the basis to understand the content of Lao Tzu

Just like what the Guodian version of Lao Tzu talks about is "keeping inaction", but the content of the modern version of Lao Tzu omits "inaction" and changes it to "keeping the way", which greatly modifies the original meaning of Lao Tzu
Caused many people to regard "keep breathing in the lower abdomen" as the Tao

 

沒有證據顯示有
也沒有證據顯示沒有

所以要先以郭店版老子為基礎，去了解老子的內容

就像郭店版老子講的是'守無為'，但是現代版老子講的內容卻把'無為'省略，變成'守道'，這樣就大幅度的修改了老子原來的意思了
造成很多人把'守下腹部呼吸'當成道

 

 

I think it's a very serious twist
Since 2016, I have been calling for this phenomenon to be a twisted way, but I have encountered very strong resistance

 

我認為這是非常嚴重的扭曲
也從2016年起，我就在這裡呼籲這種現象是一種扭曲道的，但是卻遭遇到非常強大的阻力

 

I know it is very difficult for westerners to learn Taoism because of the language barrier
But as far as I know, the Guodian version of Lao Tzu has been translated into English many years ago, so the evidence is there, it depends on whether these people want to understand
Are these people obsessed with false inheritance? Or face reality?

 

我知道西方人要學道是非常困難的，因為有語言的障礙
但是據我所知，郭店版的老子也有人多年前就翻譯成英文版，所以證據都擺在那裏，就看這些人要不要去了解
這些人到底是要執著於錯誤的傳承?還是面對現實?

Edited January 5, 2023 by awaken

[Cobie]

10 hours ago, awaken said:

… use the Guodian version of Lao Tzu as the basis to understand the content of Lao Tzu …

I agree.
 

But do you not use the other 50 chapters at all?

I use the Guodian. But if the chapter is not in the Guodian, I use the Mawangdui.

 

Quote

… the Guodian version of Lao Tzu talks about … "keeping inaction",

 

Could you please post the Laozi sentence that says so?

And in which chapter is it?

 

Quote

… the modern version of Lao Tzu omits "inaction" and changes it to "keeping the way" …

 

For this too, could you please post the Laozi sentence that says so?
And in which chapter is it?

 

Quote

… as far as I know, the Guodian version of Lao Tzu has been translated into English many years ago, …

 

Yes, I have the Henricks translation of the Guodian.

 

 

Edited January 5, 2023 by Cobie

[awaken]

6 hours ago, Cobie said:

I agree.
 

But do you not use the other 50 chapters at all?

I use the Guodian. But if the chapter is not in the Guodian, I use the Mawangdui.

 

 

Could you please post the Laozi sentence that says so?

And in which chapter is it?

 

 

For this too, could you please post the Laozi sentence that says so?
And in which chapter is it?

 

 

Yes, I have the Henricks translation of the Guodian.

 

 

 

Sorry, I found out I mixed up 32 and 37

 

郭店楚簡版Guodian Chu Bamboo Version

（道）亙（恆）亡為也，侯王能守之，而萬勿（物）○（將）自○（化）。○（化）而○（欲）○（作），○（將）貞（鎮）之以亡名之○（樸）。夫13亦○（將）智（知）足，智（知）以束（靜），萬勿（物）○（將）自定。

=>道恆亡為也，侯王能守之，而萬勿將自化，化而欲作，將貞之以亡名之，夫亦將智足，智以束靜，萬勿將自定

=>道恆無為也，侯王能守之，萬物將自化，化而欲作，將貞之以無名之，夫亦將知足，知以束靜，萬物將自定

=>Tao is always inaction, if a person can keep it, all things will evolve naturally
When it has evolved to a certain level, desire will start to work, and at this time, it is necessary to use namelessness to bring it back to the right path
so that you will start to be content
Knowing can restrain quiet
All things can be naturally stable

=>貞 right path, upright, honest

 

 

現代版３７

道常無為而無不為。侯王若能守之，萬物將自化。化而欲作，吾將鎮之以無名之樸。無名之樸，夫亦將無欲。不欲以靜，天下將自定。

 

郭店楚簡Guodian Chu Bamboo Version

道亙（恆）亡名，僕（樸）唯（雖）妻（微），天○（地）弗敢臣，侯王女（如）能18○（守）之，萬勿（物）○（將）自○（賓）。天○（地）相合也，以逾甘○（露）。民莫之命（令）天〈而〉自均安。（始）折（制）又（有）名。名19亦既又（有），夫亦○（將）智（知）止，智（知）止所以不○（殆）。卑（譬）道之才（在）天下也，猷（猶）少（小）浴（穀）之與江○（海）

=>道恆亡名，僕唯妻，天地弗敢臣，侯王如能守之，萬物將自賓，天地相合，以逾甘露，民莫之命天而自均安，折又名，名亦既又，夫亦將智止，智止所以不殆，卑道之才天下也，猶少谷之與江海

=>道恆無名，僕雖微，天地弗敢臣，侯王如能守之，萬物將自賓，天地相合，以逾甘露，民莫之命天而自均安，折有名，名亦既有，夫亦將智止，智止所以不殆，卑道之才天下也，猶少谷之與江海

 

現代版３２

道常無名。樸雖小，1天下莫能臣也。侯王若能守之，萬物將自賓。天地相合，以降甘露，民莫之令而自均。始制有名，名亦既有，夫亦將知止，知止所以不殆。譬道之在天下，猶川谷之與江海。

 

 

https://www.books.com.tw/products/CN10005152

 

I might have to buy a doctoral dissertation written by someone else to make it clearer

 

Edited January 5, 2023 by awaken

[awaken]

上士昏（聞）道，○（勤）能行於其中。中士昏（聞）道，若昏（聞）若亡。下士昏（聞）道，大○（笑）之。弗大9○（笑），不足以為道矣。

 

>>>上士聞道，勤能行於其中。中士聞道，若聞若亡。下士聞道，大笑之。弗大笑，不足以為道。

 

When people with high qualifications hear Dao, they will work hard to practice it.
People with medium qualifications can hear Dao, but they don't seem to hear it.
People with lower qualifications will only laugh when they hear Dao.
If you are not ridiculed, it is not enough to become enlightened

 

I believe that Lao Tzu's practice experience should have been ridiculed many times before he wrote this thought

I can understand Lao Tzu's thoughts very well, because I have been talking about Wuwei Yin and Yang, and I have been ridiculed countless times

 

相信老子的修行經驗應該被嘲笑過很多次，他才會寫下這段想法

我非常能理解老子的想法，因為我一直在講無為陰陽，也被嘲笑過無數次

 

If I were not talking about these things by typing on the Internet today, if I was facing people, I would definitely not want to say anything

 

今天如果我不是用網路打字的方式講這些東西，如果我是面對人，我一定什麼都不願意說

 

I write this on the internet, at least not only the people I'm talking to see the post

So it doesn't matter whether the people I talk to accept my point of view, what matters is whether more people can see this point of view

 

我在網路上寫這些，起碼看到貼文的人不止是我正在對話的人

所以與我對話的人是否接受我的觀點不重要，重要的是有沒有更多的人能夠看到這樣的觀點

Edited January 6, 2023 by awaken