Did Lao Tzu do Tai Chi or Qigong?

[paulno]

Reading the Tao Te Ching more and more I often wonder if Daosim as we know it today is what was originally intended.

 

I read a lot about "The Way" and not forcing the universe to move for you etc. At the same time I hear a lot about energy moving exercise on forums like this and it sort of confuses me.

 

Two things I want to make totally clear...

 

1. I am in no way, shape or form insulting anyone's practice.

 

2. I am not an expert on Daoism, the Tao Te Ching, Lao Tzu, Tai Chi, Qigong or probably anything.

 

I'm simply wondering the relation between the exercises and Lao Tzu and/or does one exist? If not, do we have any idea how he may have meditated?

[ChiDragon]

There was no indication in the past that LaoTze does Chi Kung or not. Tai Chi was not developed in his time. At LaoTze's time, there was no Taoist religion yet. The religion came after the Tao Te Ching was written. Then, people start interpreting the Tao Te Ching in anyway as they wanted to fit their own needs.

Edited June 10, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Informer]

I see this similarity amongst many "religions". I feel that any religion that has policy of intolerance, should have their policy imposed on them by the masses.

 

IE: If you don't tolerate others, others will not tolerate you.

Edited June 10, 2011 by Informer

[templetao]

There was no indication in the past that LaoTze does Chi Kung or not. Tai Chi was not developed in his time. At LaoTze's time, there was no Taoist religion yet. The religion came after the Tao Te Ching was written. Then, people start interpreting the Tao Te Ching in anyway as they wanted to fit their own needs.

I wouldnt say thats a 100% true it was kind o like folklore back then like knowledge of the sages. Im sure they didnt have taichi back then but i am sure that they had some form of moving meditation.

[Sloppy Zhang]

I asked some of these questions as well, until I got introduced to B.K. Frantzis' material. I don't know if Lao Tzu practiced those exact things, but I do know that practices from the "water tradition", both theoretically and practically, are a lot more in line with things you'll read in the Tao Te Ching than stuff you'd find from blended practices, which have more in line with some more "upward" minded, "persevere against the flow" type things.

[ChiDragon]

I wouldnt say thats a 100% true it was kind o like folklore back then like knowledge of the sages. Im sure they didnt have taichi back then but i am sure that they had some form of moving meditation.

 

To me, moving meditation is Chi Kung with slow movements; but I don't know how the term "moving meditation" was evolved.

[Oolong Rabbit]

Would Lao Tzu have had the blockages that we do? Taichi/qigong are just a vehicle. Once you cross the river, there is really no need to walk around carrying your boat. At the level of a Xian, Energy would circulate unimpeded. The wise sage would be doing energetics more powerful than any taichi/qigong in the act of sipping his tea.

[Riyue]

Reading the Tao Te Ching more and more I often wonder if Daosim as we know it today is what was originally intended.

 

I read a lot about "The Way" and not forcing the universe to move for you etc. At the same time I hear a lot about energy moving exercise on forums like this and it sort of confuses me.

 

Two things I want to make totally clear...

 

1. I am in no way, shape or form insulting anyone's practice.

 

2. I am not an expert on Daoism, the Tao Te Ching, Lao Tzu, Tai Chi, Qigong or probably anything.

 

I'm simply wondering the relation between the exercises and Lao Tzu and/or does one exist? If not, do we have any idea how he may have meditated?

 

Hello

 

According to

 

Li Jingwei and Zhu Jianping in "Traditionelle chinesische Methoden zur Gesunderhaltung"

Verlag für fremdsprachige Literatur

Beijing 1989 / 1997 / 2006

page 1 (translated from german edition)

The oldest document- which can be found in China up today... - , pointing to theory of qigong goes back to 戰國[战国] Zhànguó (475-221) - it is an inscription being part of a girdle.

There ancient characters can be seen being transcribed possibly this way:

 

 

行氣吞則畜

則神

則下

則定

則固

則明

則長

則复

則天

其本在上

其本在下

順則生

逆則死

 

A Commentary From Historian Guo Moruo:

When circulating your Qi, you should breathe in deeply.

 

After enough Qi stores in your body, lead your Qi downward,

and pause for a second,

then use your mind to settle the Qi at the Lower Jiao;

 

Then slowly breathe out the Qi,

like the sprout of a plant which is growing upward,

all the way to the top (comparing with the direction that Qi goes down,

the way that goes up can be considered as retreating or withdrawing).

 

Keep breathing out slowly, until all the dirty Qi in your abdomen is out.

 

In this way, the crucial points or the secret of Heaven is moving up;

the crucial points or the secret of Earth is moving down.

If you follow this principle, you will live;

if you go against this principle, you will die

---

Maybe Laozi was pointing to this writing in daodejing 10:

 

專氣致柔

 

能嬰兒乎

--

taijiquan is following these old principles -

-

Another interesting document is

導引圖 Daoyin tu Dating to around 168 BCE (http://www.daoistcenter.org/daoyin.html)

Edited June 13, 2011 by Riyue

[Jetsun]

I wouldnt say thats a 100% true it was kind o like folklore back then like knowledge of the sages. Im sure they didnt have taichi back then but i am sure that they had some form of moving meditation.

 

How do you know they had moving meditation? maybe they thought it was a waste of time.

 

From my understanding Lao Tzu stresses letting go as a fundamental point, so any method which teaches this is likely to be in line with the way pointed at in the Tao Te Ching

[dawei]

[zerostao]

Reading the Tao Te Ching more and more I often wonder if Daosim as we know it today is what was originally intended.

 

I read a lot about "The Way" and not forcing the universe to move for you etc. At the same time I hear a lot about energy moving exercise on forums like this and it sort of confuses me.

 

Two things I want to make totally clear...

 

1. I am in no way, shape or form insulting anyone's practice.

 

2. I am not an expert on Daoism, the Tao Te Ching, Lao Tzu, Tai Chi, Qigong or probably anything.

 

I'm simply wondering the relation between the exercises and Lao Tzu and/or does one exist? If not, do we have any idea how he may have meditated?

in chapter 10 of the TTC Lao Tzu discusses breathing exercises in connection with meditation.

" Can you concentrate on your breathing to reach harmony

and become as an innocent babe?

Can you clean the dark mirror within yourself

and make it of perfect purity?...

if you don't like this translation of TTC go to TTC chp 10 and read the Henricks translation.

"concentrating the breath and making it soft...

cultivating and clearing your profound mirror"

when i am meditaing i am concentrating my breath and i am trying to cultivate my inner mirror striving for purity.

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend

[Mal]

[Mal]

Lao Tzu is seen practicing flowing, dance like movements

 

Had another read this morning and from what was described it seemed like a spontaneous movement practice.

[dawei]

Had another read this morning and from what was described it seemed like a spontaneous movement practice.

Like a bowel movement... ever do the buddha breath during the movement? Such bliss

Edited June 17, 2011 by dawei

[Stigweard]

[Birch]

[Ya Mu]

The earliest documentation we have is archaeology. Pottery shows shamans breathing and even groups dancing. Dancing is the precursor to Dao Yin. Many of the oldest texts reference the rain and wetness causing illness and such movements and breathing were the therapies which evolved. Confucius, Mozi, and Zhuangzi seem to confirm such practices. It would seem natural that Laozi shows knowledge of practices.

 

 

I think this is the Ancient Jade Pendant Inscription of Circulating Qi, which was a 12 sided cylindrical object. My references date to 600-400 BC and note that, concerning Guo Mo Ruo, "many qigong scholars do not agree with his translation and interpretation of the "Jade Pendent" -- Chinese Medical Qigong

A good answer.

In the oral tradition of what I was taught we have stories of "long ago" travelers utilizing qi manipulation techniques not only for healing but for practical application like scaring away wild animals when traveling. These techniques exist today in our system and as I understand were derived from shamanic practices. Naturally, when such a thing as a "Taoist" came along they adopted these practices.

In the same oral tradition these is even a story of a shaman telling the people to go on a long, long journey to another land far away and that the way would disappear after them. Which of course is referring to the theory (fact?) of a land bridge connecting to the Americas and that the Native Americans were descended from Chinese. It is my understanding that this is so. Side points I know but these stories point to the understanding that "Qigong" practices do go a LONG way back. Personally, as I wrote in my first book, I do believe these practices go further back than that. And I have good reason for this belief, but certainly no proof whatsoever.

 

In the end, it really doesn't matter if such a person as Loazi existed, or, if he did exist, did he practice "qigong". The practices TODAY speak for themselves.

[dawei]

"The idea that the Daoist religion came after the philosophy is usually a biased argument waged by the "Daoism is a philosophy only" apologists."

 

Stig. I don't know which came after what. Would be interesting to find out however :-)

 

My current consideration (so far) is that religion is 'only' a "shared philosophy" anyway.

My opinion is that Daoism is ever evolving and containing previous parts as it goes along. I see it as going along a path sometime like:

Shamanism/Nature > Alchemy/Spiritual > Philosophical/Humanistic > Religious/Spirit

 

But what you will find is that very, very few 'practice' or live by the religious teaching in China; most 'know' it and it seems to be more pragmatically used. But in Taiwan (much smaller and denser) the religious aspect is more important.

[dawei]

Personally, as I wrote in my first book, I do believe these practices go further back than that. And I have good reason for this belief, but certainly no proof whatsoever.

I agree. I also think the phrase to be "one with Dao" may be a much more energy-based spiritual communion than meets the eye. For this reason, from the very beginning, they probably had this communion naturally in terms of breathing [techniques] along. I do think movements came along to serve a specific purpose (health) but it may be that they also just wanted to mimic animals as a kind of ritual too.