Critical issues in Taoist alchemy

[xuanying]

thanks for giving us a glimpse of your understanding. as to Liu, it just shows that he misread the text rather severely, there is no "square" there 方圆 just means a "diameter" e.g. 4.这个湖方圆一里,宽半里

http://www.chinese-tools.com/tools/chinese-dictionary.html

Fangyuan 方圆 means "circumference" in the modern language, but fang 方 "square" and yuan 圆 "round" are two attributes of Earth and Heaven, respectively, mentioned in innumerable texts.

Edited April 13, 2011 by xuanying

[Procurator]

Fangyuan 方圆 does mean "diameter" in the modern language, but fang 方 "square" and yuan 圆 "round" are two attributes of Earth and Heaven, respectively, mentioned in innumerable texts.

well, i happen to know that, but thanks:). One of the keys to reading transcendental texts is to recognize when a term is used literally and when figuratively.

 

here is an example of a diameter in an ancient text

 

《經典文獻 - Ancient Classics》《山海經 - Shan Hai Jing》

 

《大荒北經》

 

1 大荒北經:

東北海之外，大荒之中，河水之間，附禺之山，帝顓頊與九嬪葬焉。爰有久、文貝、離俞、鸞鳥、凰鳥、大物、小物。有青鳥、琅鳥、玄鳥、黃鳥、虎、豹、熊、羆、黃蛇、視肉、璿、瑰、瑤、碧，皆出衛於山。丘方圓三百里，

 

http://ctext.org/pre-qin-and-han?searchu=%E6%96%B9%E5%9C%86&page=3

 

Liu either was naive in reading 方圓 figuratively when it is followed by a measure of distance in CTQ as in example above; or, was bending CTQ to suit his preconceived assumptions. Judging by his other comments i believe it was the former exacerbated by the latter.

Edited April 13, 2011 by Daode

[Procurator]

Daode, everything is possible with regard to the Daode jing, and its explanations and interpretations will never end.

 

 

ah.. post-modernism. great, thanks.

[tccii]

tccii, once more I entirely agree with you. Just a few remarks:

 

 

I completely agree with this as well. For me, reading (and maybe translating) a text is pure pleasure.

 

 

And your efforts are certainly appreciated!

 

 

At the same time, I find it helps to stick with what a tradition (in this case, Taoism or more particularly, Neidan) teaches, instead of fantasizing for one or another reason. (Note that by that "tradition" I mean the Chinese tradition, not its "interpreters" in the West.) It also helps to understand that, while the gist of a doctrine "has no history", its forms and formulations do have a history, because they happen in the so-called real world.

 

 

I agree that there are too many fantasists, but this is true in all traditions, not just Taoism. It is also not simply limited to the West. There are plenty of Chinese fantasists as well. Although I have had Western teachers who have a better grasp of essential Chinese and Taoist practices than many Chinese teachers, I have also had a number of very highly accomplished Chinese teachers. Like anything else, Caveat Emptor.

 

One important corollary: there is no need to limit yourself to a textual tradition. Neidan is a living tradition and there are authentic Chinese teachers (and a few Western ones) who are willing to teach Lao Wei!

 

 

Aren't we saying the same thing in different words?

 

 

I don't know

 

 

The perfection of doing. So perfect and absolute that it has nothing to do with "doing" in the common sense of the word, and therefore does not even appear to be "doing". Yet it does everything that needs to be done.

 

 

 

Your words are not wrong. However, in my understanding of how this applies to Alchemy, they are not "complete." In this case, Wu Wei does not mean nothing is done. It refers to a specific set of practices which are distinct from those of 'You Wei"

 

 

 

PS. On one minor point actually I do disagree with you -- when you say "we are talking about the Virgin Body (Tong Zi)". What is the point of translating tongzi as "virgin body"? You may, if you find it useful, explain that tongzi connotes the "virgin body", but then you should explain what you mean by this expression, because this is not what tongzi means in Chinese. In other words, you should not give the impression that "virgin body" is a translation of tongzi. Tongzi just means "child" or "lad".

 

You are correct regarding the formal, technical meaning of the term. My use of "Tongzi" is not made up, or Western fantasized. My Chinese teachers actually use this term. My understanding is that this meaning of Tongzi is an informal usage. However, since my Chinese language skill is limited, I would not object if you replaced my use of Tongzi with "body of childhood, when the precelestial particle of numinous radiance is not yet damaged."

The key point to understand is that we were distinguishing between the youth with "unbroken Yang lines" and the adult with "broken Yang lines" Does that make sense?

[xuanying]

Liu either was naive in reading 方圓 figuratively when it is followed by a measure of distance in CTQ as in example above; or, was bending CTQ to suit his preconceived assumptions. Judging by his other comments i believe it was the former exacerbated by the latter.

The only Cantong qi sentence that uses 方圓 is this: 方圓徑寸. There is no "measure of distance". How would you translate it?

 

Please let us not lose track of the title of this topic, "Critical issues in Taoist alchemy". I am asking the question above only because, although of course I cannot guarantee that Liu Yiming did not have "preconceived assumptions", I would wait a few seconds before speaking in that way.

Edited April 13, 2011 by xuanying

[Procurator]

The only Cantong qi sentence that uses 方圓 is this: 方圓徑寸. There is no "measure of distance". How would you translate it?

 

"one cun across in diameter". 寸 is measure of distance, a unit of length.

[xuanying]

"one cun across in diameter". 寸 is measure of distance, a unit of length.

The Cantong qi sentence is fangyuan jing cun 方圓徑寸. Yours is a translation of jing cun 徑寸 only. I really don't understand why you don't want to translate fangyuan 方圓 (which here of course cannot mean "circumference").

 

Well, it doesn't matter.

 

What is interesting is that this sentence derives from the Book of the Yellow Court (Huangting jing, a meditation text), where the similar sentence "square and round, one inch is its size" (方圓一寸) refers to the upper Cinnabar Field. In the Cantong qi, instead, it refers to the Elixir. "Square and round" (fangyuan) are said to refer to Earth and Heaven, respectively, and the "one inch" of its size to their being joined as one. (This, again, is not my invention.)

Edited April 13, 2011 by xuanying

[xuanying]

. . . I would not object if you replaced my use of Tongzi with "body of childhood, when the precelestial particle of numinous radiance is not yet damaged.

Everything clear now.

[Procurator]

 

 

My use of "Tongzi" is not made up, or Western fantasized. My Chinese teachers actually use this term. My understanding is that this meaning of Tongzi is an informal usage.

no, your teacher is being quite formal in this usage, Tongzi does specifically mean a virgin male

 

7. 童男 (子) (子兒) [tong2nan2]([zi3]), ([tzeeer0]), n., boy without sexual experience.

http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/Lindict/

 

what is your lineage? i did not find it on your page.

[Procurator]

The Cantong qi sentence is fangyuan jing cun 方圓徑寸. Yours is a translation of jing cun 徑寸 only. I really don't understand why you don't want to translate fangyuan 方圓 (which here of course cannot mean "circumference").

 

Well, it doesn't matter.

of course it does not Edited April 13, 2011 by Daode

[tccii]

 

what is your lineage? i did not find it on your page.

 

Nan Pai, Bei Pai, Yin Xian Pai... and parts of a few others.

[gendao]

You are correct regarding the formal, technical meaning of the term. My use of "Tongzi" is not made up, or Western fantasized. My Chinese teachers actually use this term. My understanding is that this meaning of Tongzi is an informal usage. However, since my Chinese language skill is limited, I would not object if you replaced my use of Tongzi with "body of childhood, when the precelestial particle of numinous radiance is not yet damaged."

 

The key point to understand is that we were distinguishing between the youth with "unbroken Yang lines" and the adult with "broken Yang lines" Does that make sense?

Physiologically, when does this transition actually occur?

 

At first ejaculation? First time having actual sex? Puberty?

 

Taoist Yoga says that "yang qi & jing" (kidney jing?) starts declining at age 16 in 8-year cycles...which would seem to imply around (or at the end of) puberty?

[Procurator]

Nan Pai, Bei Pai, Yin Xian Pai... and parts of a few others.

umm..by lineage its usually meant the actual names of teachers. (just a note).

[Guest allan]

Edited April 13, 2011 by allan

[Guest allan]

For the benefit of those who do not have a copy of the Yijing, or do not know where the Square comes from, or doubt the knowledge of Liu I Ming on the matters discussed, here is what the six in the second place of Kun means:

 

Straight, square, great.

 

Without purpose,

 

Yet nothing remains unfurthered.

[W/B]

[tccii]

Physiologically, when does this transition actually occur?

 

At first ejaculation? First time having actual sex? Puberty?

 

Taoist Yoga says that "yang qi & jing" (kidney jing?) starts declining at age 16 in 8-year cycles...which would seem to imply around (or at the end of) puberty?

 

Vortex, that is very good question. A full answer would be quite drawn out, but to summarize:

 

The 8 year cycle (for males) is simply a heuristic. It varies greatly by the individual, but provides a relatively simple explanation for the process of growth, decline, and death and how it is reversed.

 

Although I am not certain that it is fair, Zhao Bi Chen is sometimes criticized as having an overly physiological bias. The distinction between the virgin body and broken body implies more than just physiological processes. It can also refer to the overall constitution and nature. Therefore, sexual activity is not the only thing that can "break" the body, if you will. The 10 Excesses and the emotions (5 or 7 thieves) can do the same thing. These factors generally become aggravated in puberty, as anyone who knows teenagers will confirm!

 

Second, remember that, although most of the alchemical texts were written from the male perspective, practically speaking it holds true for females as well, although the specific details will vary somewhat.

 

 

What this means is in application is there are probably few people, especially Westerners, who would qualify as Tongzi. Almost everyone will need to start with building the foundation. An exception could be the case of a child who has an affinity with cultivation (especially if the child has a calm, untroubled spirit, without a lot of "pollution.") In this case, if you can get them started in the practice before they become sexually active, they could progress faster.

[Procurator]

For the benefit of those who do not have a copy of the Yijing, or do not know where the Square comes from, or doubt the knowledge of Liu I Ming on the matters discussed, here is what the six in the second place of Kun means:

 

Straight, square, great.

 

Without purpose,

 

Yet nothing remains unfurthered.

[W/B]

thank you very much in the name of those miscreants now we know whence the FANG.

 

but whence the 圆 YUAN? Because search as you may it is not in QIAN,

http://ctext.org/book-of-changes/qian?searchu=%E5%9C%86

[宁]

Vortex, that is very good question. A full answer would be quite drawn out, but to summarize:

 

The 8 year cycle (for males) is simply a heuristic. It varies greatly by the individual, but provides a relatively simple explanation for the process of growth, decline, and death and how it is reversed.

 

Although I am not certain that it is fair, Zhao Bi Chen is sometimes criticized as having an overly physiological bias. The distinction between the virgin body and broken body implies more than just physiological processes. It can also refer to the overall constitution and nature. Therefore, sexual activity is not the only thing that can "break" the body, if you will. The 10 Excesses and the emotions (5 or 7 thieves) can do the same thing. These factors generally become aggravated in puberty, as anyone who knows teenagers will confirm!

 

Second, remember that, although most of the alchemical texts were written from the male perspective, practically speaking it holds true for females as well, although the specific details will vary somewhat.

 

 

What this means is in application is there are probably few people, especially Westerners, who would qualify as Tongzi. Almost everyone will need to start with building the foundation. An exception could be the case of a child who has an affinity with cultivation (especially if the child has a calm, untroubled spirit, without a lot of "pollution.") In this case, if you can get them started in the practice before they become sexually active, they could progress faster.

 

 

I followed through your guys' discussion which was very informative on a theoretical level, and waited to see if it would ever dare venture into the practical aspect of the teaching.

I suppose this is a good time to ask, what is generally understood by Building the foundation.

 

It's an open question to all, thanks

 

L1

[xuanying]

thank you very much in the name of those miscreants now we know whence the FANG.

 

but whence the 圆 YUAN? Because search as you may it is not in QIAN,

http://ctext.org/book-of-changes/qian?searchu=%E5%9C%86

Could you please clarify what is your issue with these words? Just in order to understand whether this discussion is useful.

[xuanying]

I followed through your guys' discussion which was very informative on a theoretical level, and waited to see if it would ever dare venture into the practical aspect of the teaching.

Little1, thanks for raising this issue. I always found it curious that in the West we have this idea of theory vs. practice. As if in Taoism, or in Neidan, there is a "theory" that should be proved, and the "practice" is the proof.

 

The theory/practice issue is a thoroughly Western idea. A theory needs to be proved, and if the practice does not prove the theory, then the theory is changed. This is, very roughly, how Western sciences function.

 

This idea of "theory" is not a concern at all in Taoism -- in fact, the concept of "theory" does not even seem to exist. Now that it's possible to search almost the whole Taoist Canon (at www.ctcwri.idv.tw), I tried some time ago to search for lilun 理論, the Chinese word for "theory". I was surprised to see that this word appears only 15 times or so in the Canon. And when it does appear, it does not mean "theory", but "discourse (or essay) on the principles".

 

The closest word to "theory" in Taoism seems to be jiao 教, "teaching" or "doctrine". And certainly there can't be any "teaching/doctrine vs. practice" issue. In fact, the Taoist perspective is the opposite of the Western perspective: what is subject to change is not the doctrine, but the "practice".

 

Is there anyone who can comment on this, and help me clarify my views?

Edited April 15, 2011 by xuanying

[tccii]

The closest word to "theory" in Taoism seems to be jiao 教, "teaching" or "doctrine". And certainly there can't be any "teaching/doctrine vs. practice" issue.

 

 

This is a key point. One of the things that can quickly alienate a traditional Chinese teacher is a student showing up expecting them to prove that what they teach is true. For many of them, they are not there to "prove" anything, but to transmit. It is expected that the student has already decided that they accept, for example, that it is possible to become a TianXian, and simply wants to know how.

 

Most of them do not, however, expect you to accept what they say on blind faith. They expect you to be committed and practice and thereby validate the method for yourself. There are levels of understanding which are based upon the students commitment/success in practice. Essentially, they expect you to practice and validate for yourself.

 

In fact, the Taoist perspective is the opposite of the Western perspective: what is subject to change is not the doctrine, but the "practice".

This is my understanding as well. The teachings/doctrine serve as a guide to inform your understanding and practice. Certain parts are rarely or never written down. If they are, key elements are usually omitted.

 

The question that is often asked is "Why are there secrets?" The most basic answer is for all the reasons anyone keeps secrets. But one of main reasons is because the specific techniques and methods can be varied by the teacher to suit the unique needs of the individual students. The overall approach, however, will usually remain the same within the school.

 

For this reason, it is hard to say "there is only one best method/technique/school". Not that it keeps people from saying that anyway...

Edited April 15, 2011 by tccii

[tccii]

I followed through your guys' discussion which was very informative on a theoretical level, and waited to see if it would ever dare venture into the practical aspect of the teaching.

I suppose this is a good time to ask, what is generally understood by Building the foundation.

 

It's an open question to all, thanks

 

L1

 

L1, as XY noted, what we have been discussing is directly related to the actual practice. However, I understand that you are inquiring about the specific techniques of the Building the Foundation stage. I appreciate that you limited your question to that part of the practice. It is probably the stage of the practice that could most readily be described in writing, although it would take at least a small book to do it justice. To put it in perspective, we take three days to introduce the first stage in our Internal Alchemy course. This is only after preparing them with three days of basics and nearly a year of personal practice!

 

However, it is also important to understand that there is no one answer to your question. That Westerners, as part of our general education and conditioning, expect a single answer to a question is one of the great cultural barriers that has to be crossed in order to understand these practices. You will likely find that each school has a slightly different approach and even within a school there would be variation among teachers and their students (see my reply to XY above.)

 

If you are serious about wanting to study Nei Dan, but do not have a teacher, then the best advice I can give without knowing you would be to establish a diligent Qigong practice of some sort. By diligent I mean daily and committed. A committed daily practice is essential to success in cultivation. There is a saying "Those who start the (Internal Alchemy) practice are as numerous as the hairs on an ox. Those who finish are as rare as the dragon's horns and phoenix's feathers." That is, many people learn it, but few are committed enough to follow through with the practice. If you have a good practice, you will have a good foundation to learn Internal Alchemy when the time, place, and people are right.

Edited April 15, 2011 by tccii

[Procurator]

Could you please clarify what is your issue with these words? Just in order to understand whether this discussion is useful.

well, Allan tried to prove that Liu's understanding of 方圆 in CTQ as "round and square" is correct since it is allegedly represents Heaven and Earth atributes derived from Yi-jing. To that end he pointed out that 方 comes from Kun section of Yi-Jing, which indeed contains that word.

 

However, by that logic 圆 should have come from Qian section of Yi-jing. But since there is no 圆 in Qian, then this logic is incorrect.

 

Yi-jing is not the source for this expression.

 

 

 

that is it, just musing aloud, no issues.)

Edited April 15, 2011 by Daode

[Procurator]

This is a key point. One of the things that can quickly alienate a traditional Chinese teacher is a student showing up expecting them to prove that what they teach is true.

well if those teachers have not achieved anything they will find the request impolite that is for sure. however if they can walk the talk they will prove it, without u even having to ask for it. it is a key point indeed.

[Procurator]

 

 

Is there anyone who can comment on this, and help me clarify my views?

I will if i may.

 

indeed in daoism the theory is just instruction for the practice, so they are inseparable parts of doctrine. And in that regard, there is indeed no "theory" vs practice dichotomy.

 

however when we ask about theory vs practice what we really mean is empty, scholastic talk vs practical, proven results.

 

and that dichotomy is very much present in daoism. the texts dont mince words here: 愚 foolishnes vs 证 proof.