fire kundalini cultivation vs water kunlun cultivation

[bodyoflight]

so the fire cultivation method is to move kundalini energy up your spine

 

water cultivation aka kunlun is to move energy down your spine

 

which is better, easier, faster?

[markern]

To quote Max directly "one hour of Kunlun is worht more than a hundred years of any other practice

[bodyoflight]

To quote Max directly "one hour of Kunlun is worht more than a hundred years of any other practice

 

yes there is no doubt Kunlun is more special than any other practices in Max's eyes

 

although Michael Winn has explained that .. if you only follow in the water style, this can lead to very slow progress at times. Sometimes you need more fire to transform your life or a situation. Only doing water practice can lead to stagnation and holding of water in the body. Physically, this results in overweight condition; psychically, it can result in unnecessarily slow spiritual progress.

 

http://www.healingtaousa.com/cgi-bin/articles.pl?rm=mode2&articleid=1

Edited April 4, 2011 by bodyoflight

[Edward M]

IMHO, one should follow a tradition, a well trodden path with many teachers around who have come a long way. Not just the one, who's words you must follow to get anywhere.

 

Safer both for student and teacher.

 

As far as specific methods, one size does not fit all!

 

peace

Ed

[Jetsun]

I don't know but I would start with Water because the downward flow will ground you to the earth stabilising you so you can release some of the larger blockages, rushing into fire with lots of nervous system and emotional blockages could just drive you a bit insane

[bodyoflight]

I don't know but I would start with Water because the downward flow will ground you to the earth stabilising you so you can release some of the larger blockages, rushing into fire with lots of nervous system and emotional blockages could just drive you a bit insane

 

so what happens when you practice fire kundalini cultivation and ego-busting obstacle-busting blockage-busting cultivation at the same time?

 

superspeed attainment of siddhis and correspondingly, enlightenment?

[ralis]

Oh no! Not another kunlun thread! I can't imagine why or what will be discussed.

[Leif]

IMHO the teacher is more important than the method

 

(if I had the luxury of choice, ie lots of good teachers, I'd go with one that'd be best fit for me at the moment of decision personality- and energeticaly-wise)

[sean]

i'd suggest you think about the question itself a bit more deeply.

 

for one, the only way to objectively answer this question is a scientific nightmare. at least two nearly identical people to engage exclusively in one approach vs the other would be needed. what "better, faster, easier" even mean would have to be explicitly defined. worse would be trying to design the criteria for evaluating which participant is not only getting results defined as better but got there faster and with more ease. (!)

 

a "better, faster, easier" course of inquiry for you might be questions like:

 

what makes sense to you right now in this very moment?

 

what practices do you already know deeply in your heart you are meant to pursue and discover the truth about?

 

what do you already know in your whole being that you must do no matter how difficult it is, even if you are terrified it may be the wrong choice, even if you knew you might die trying?

 

sean

[VCraigP]

so the fire cultivation method is to move kundalini energy up your spine

 

water cultivation aka kunlun is to move energy down your spine

 

which is better, easier, faster?

 

 

i'm pretty sure you don't even have the distinctions between "Fire" and "Water" type practices even properly defined in your head.

Also FWIW Winn defines his and the Healing Tao systems methods as Fire and Water.

 

Beyond that...

 

 

I really like what Sean said.

 

It is always difficult to advise someone what they should pursue. What are you drawn to? Do you have sufficient discernment to determine for yourself what is a good path? Do you have sufficient intuition to feel what is right and wrong for you?

 

I would re read Winns discussion about the Fire Water dichotomy which Frantzis poses, and I would advise to read the interview with Frantzis recently published here by Sean. Just for starters.

 

Whether Kundalini as a phenomenon can even be classified as Fire vs Water method I am not even sure.

 

To me the main distinction is that so called Fire methods involve taking conscious action in the process, where Water methods just allow the process to unfold without "making" anything happen. I once had a teacher who insisted that doing "inner smile" practice overheats the heart because you are making something happen. This was not my experience by the way...

 

The subject of whether Frantzis perspective about Water method vs Fire method as being completely different paths is still an open question. The idea of purely allowing, dissolving, etc vs engaging with the process and consciously interacting with it is a big distinction which is not limited to just Winn and Frantzis.

 

Finally, if anyone can tell you what is "better, easier, faster" they are both wrong and they don't know what they are talking about.

 

Craig

[torus693]

fire element straight up the spine is ok with one body type and not ok with another

also with one race and not with another. Fire is refined in Yi Gong and when it does requires no effort to rise. It become less erratic. Consciousness is hidden in water and fire. Their combination yields a third element necessary to open up (so to speak)

your magnetic body that relates to cultivation as purification of and increased chemical production by the Chakra body -endocrine system. The shortest path is your own life full of joy that enable free action, less ego and more balanced emotions (elements) that leads to their natural alchemical process that begins with both water and fire. Our connection to nature happens in the magnetic potential of the body where natural law (gravity) govern development towards a universal standard of highest potential.

Re connecting with the earth is most essential.

 

the desired rising in the spine is not fire in the classical sense of the elements. It gets described as fire by association with symptom, or effect.

Edited April 5, 2011 by torus693

[dawei]

Try both ways. Which one is more natural?

 

If you want to try the one less natural to your energy flow, you need much more than a forum question to get it right.

 

I think Forest Gump had a quote about this kind of thing...

[Sloppy Zhang]

As others have quite astutely pointed out, in my humble opinion, we should question the terms of the question, first.

 

Each have benefits and drawbacks, which could help or hurt different people under different circumstances.

 

Steroids will get you strong "faster", but their abuse can lead to many ill side effects. Non-drug supported exercises will get you stronger "slower", but in the long term you are healthy for a substantially longer period of time (lifetime?). So where is the cut off? Who can be stronger/faster 2 weeks from now? 2 months from now? 2 years from now? 20 years from now?

 

Fire traditions may get you crazy stuff, but you may burn out your system if it's not right for you.

 

Water traditions may ease you into a place, giving you what you can handle little bits at a time, or you may stagnate if it's not right for you.

 

Each individual is unique, and so what they need physically and spiritually differs greatly from every other person. What works for one doesn't work for another. That doesn't mean something is absolutely more or less effective.

[Creation]

As others have pointed out, the title of this post really assumes some things that might not be right, namely kudalini=upward=fire and kunlun=downward=water.

 

There are people whose kundalini opens from the top down, or it goes up but is not experienced as fiery. And I don't see what would prevent someone from experiencing hot energy going upwards during kunlun formless practice. I think the Kunlun book mentioned this, actually.

 

Then people start confusing these ideas with Bruce Frantzis' talk of fire and water methods. But when he talks about Taoist fire and water methods he doesn't mean that one school only utilizes one element or one direction of energetic flow. According to his books, both schools are trying to clear out the blockages and fully integrate a person on every level (in particular every element and direction). They just use different methods: Fire methods cultivate and circulate the "dan", water methods use inner dissolving.

[bodyoflight]

As others have pointed out, the title of this post really assumes some things that might not be right, namely kudalini=upward=fire and kunlun=downward=water.

 

There are people whose kundalini opens from the top down, or it goes up but is not experienced as fiery. And I don't see what would prevent someone from experiencing hot energy going upwards during kunlun formless practice. I think the Kunlun book mentioned this, actually.

 

Then people start confusing these ideas with Bruce Frantzis' talk of fire and water methods. But when he talks about Taoist fire and water methods he doesn't mean that one school only utilizes one element or one direction of energetic flow. According to his books, both schools are trying to clear out the blockages and fully integrate a person on every level (in particular every element and direction). They just use different methods: Fire methods cultivate and circulate the "dan", water methods use inner dissolving.

 

One of the first spiritual principles which i learnt is that you have to cultivate your body, mind and spirit at the same time.

 

There are several authors who talked about the different spiritual planes. The astral, the psychic, the etheric..

 

I am beginning to understand now that the fire cultivation methods of kundalini seem to be focused on opening up the energy centers and meridians of the body and the water cultivation methods of inner dissolving and ego-busting seem to work on the mind.

 

What then of the spirit component of our work?

[torus693]

fire and water mixed are a step closer to increasing spirit

[sean]

One of the first spiritual principles which i learnt is that you have to cultivate your body, mind and spirit at the same time.

 

There are several authors who talked about the different spiritual planes. The astral, the psychic, the etheric..

 

I am beginning to understand now that the fire cultivation methods of kundalini seem to be focused on opening up the energy centers and meridians of the body and the water cultivation methods of inner dissolving and ego-busting seem to work on the mind.

 

What then of the spirit component of our work?

dude, you gotta get out of your head.

 

sean

[Ulises]

"up" "down"...Tired linear thinking...we still have to do the cognitive transition to circular thinking (re-discovered by 2d order cybernetic thinking and kept alive by all the First People)

 

What about the perspective of Daniel Odier, saying that so-called kundalini is a SPHERICAL awakening...?

 

Sorry, but all these (artificial) distinctions seem to me hilarious reifications of a Mystery that is best approached with a realistic, respectful "beginner's mind"

 

When I open to the Life Force, sometimes it feels like water, sometimes like fire, sometimes it's "electric", sometimes it's "magnetic", sometimes it's wild shaking, sometimes it's the most exquisite gentle taichi-like movement..and so forth and so on...endless variations...I'm in awe of the complexity unfolding through opening/surrender/attuning to this Love Song...

Edited April 5, 2011 by Ulises

[Master of no significance]

not sure if I should open a new Topic:

 

Christensen says his Kunlun (as water Method)  should not be mixed with fire methods. As such he mentions Kundalini awakening.

 

1.) what do you think of this?

2.) How do I know if my spontaneous Qigong Practices are Fire or Water?

 

Ya Mu , soaring crane and others concerned with zifa practice - could you elaborate on this?

[Boundlesscostfairy]

You should understand what your Kunalini/spine is trying to tell you.. you can do Kunlun at the times that it is called for.. same with Fire kundalini..

 

There is a specific time to do each of these..

 

There are more types of Serpent kundalini..

 

Air, Meta/metal.. Ground or Earth Kundalini..

[Aetherous]

On 3/18/2018 at 4:07 PM, Master of no significance said:

Christensen says his Kunlun (as water Method)  should not be mixed with fire methods. As such he mentions Kundalini awakening.

 

1.) what do you think of this?

 

I think it's hard to sum up what Kunlun is by only saying "water method", because water can mean so many things, and I think Max only means it in certain ways.

One way is that it has a tendency to release the mind, so "water" in that case implies effortlessness...versus fire practices where you try and do and kind of mechanically force things.

It could also imply a descent of light from above...versus trying to raise energy upward.

It could also be that one feels more magnetic than electric, and that can correspond more to "water" which is magnetic in principle.

One example of how I don't think it could best be called "water" is the fact that it warms up your body...to me "water path" seems more cooling. But as I understand, the warming is just clearing in the nadis...so perhaps it ultimately is cooling to the system after that clears.

Anyway, I also heard Max say that kundalini awakens naturally with Kunlun, at a certain point or at certain times a little more. I personally had what I thought were experiences of kundalini prior to starting Kunlun, and I did notice that the same thing occurred sometimes with the practice.

But I think the main difference is that Kunlun is a posture which causes an effortless effect, and other methods require efforts and don't cause that kind of mind releasing/effortlessness.

 

Quote

2.) How do I know if my spontaneous Qigong Practices are Fire or Water?

 

You might not want to hear this, but spontaneous qigong is often a cause of qi deviation...just think about it - what is natural about a body that flails around sometimes slightly without your control? Qi is unrefined if it's causing movements to the physical body...why isn't the qi flowing smoothly through the channels? Why is the mind needing to move the body? Can't the mind relax? As such, from what I understood in the Kunlun system, spontaneous movements are a sign of purification and are not to be sought. The practice of the Kunlun method is not spontaneous qigong...it's a posture that starts an effect (and the effect is not "spontaneous movements"). This is my understanding of it...seek Max for individual instruction.

It's very important to listen to advice of the teachers whose methods you practice. It's very easy to mess oneself up otherwise. I messed myself practicing this stuff, mixing things and doing them at the wrong time. I actually wound up in the mental ward of a hospital. Don't be like me!

So that being said, I wouldn't mix it with anything, at least not on the same day.

I personally moved on to a type of fire path, which was more aligned with my individual needs, and rarely ever practice Kunlun now as a result. I do miss the system. If I do them separated by half a day (morning and evening different systems), I can tell that it causes a little bit of a problem, and really do better only practicing one of the systems on a day. Powerful methods produce powerful results, and we want to make those results go in a good direction.

Edited March 19, 2018 by Aetherous