Question about the Fire method

[fatherjhon]

[GreytoWhite]

Kumar goes into more detail in the interview linked below.

 

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/17794-the-tao-bums-interview-with-bruce-frantzis-march-2011

[GreytoWhite]

http://www.healingtaousa.com/cgi-bin/articles.pl?rm=mode2&articleid=1

 

Here is another good article.

[Sloppy Zhang]

[寒月 Hanyue]

Never mind...

Edited April 1, 2011 by snowmonki

[Taomeow]

You have a head on top, heart and lungs below that, stomach and liver and kidneys below that, reproductive organs below that. Fire methods concern themselves with stuff going on on top -- upper brain, heart, breath. That's because Fire Ascends. Ascension paradigms, pyramid-like in shape and ideation, heaven-oriented, upper-mobile, hierarchical, patriarchal, are systems of goals and values that aim somewhere "up there" -- these are Fire systems.

 

Water methods concern themselves with stuff going on on the bottom of the human being -- lower brain, liver, kidneys, stomach, reproductive organs. That's because Water Descends. Descention paradigm, inverted pyramid-like in shape and ideation, earthward-oriented, stability-oriented, non-hierarchical, matriarchal, are systems of goals and values that aim somewhere "down here" -- these are Water systems.

 

Most of human history is Water-based history. Fire values/ideation/social structures (that caused our species to build pyramids, now discovered pretty much everywhere on Earth, contrary to the long-held myth that they are somehow endemic to Egypt) were implanted by someone or something from "up there" -- toward their own purposes.

 

In other words, Water methods concern themselves with things human, and Fire methods, with the goals of something or someone "above human."

 

Take your pick.

[fatherjhon]

I have the feeling I just stepped off the shore thinking to wet my ankles and find myself in water too deep to stand.

 

I missed most of that and need to look some of it up. They only thing I recognize was Initiation Into Hermetics by Franz Bardon. Read that book some time ago but never thought it had anything to do with chi gong.

 

Thank you, and I will come back with questions after I can make some scene of this.

[GreytoWhite]

snowmonki thank you for clarification.

[Sloppy Zhang]

I have the feeling I just stepped off the shore thinking to wet my ankles and find myself in water too deep to stand.

 

Break it up into chunks, save it somewhere, read it, come back later and re-read it. Look at the structure, descriptions, and philosophy of other paths, then come back and re-read. A lot of stuff in this thread makes sense, but it's synthesized out of a lot of research and practice. So yeah, this thread has a lot of pretty dense stuff, but once you know what's going on, it'll make more sense

 

Basically- there's a lot of nuance and detail to these things, so it's hard to say something simple like, "yes, you're right" or "no, you're wrong".

 

They only thing I recognize was Initiation Into Hermetics by Franz Bardon. Read that book some time ago but never thought it had anything to do with chi gong.

 

It contains portions of it which are analogous to qigong, but also contains parts of it which get more into what could be described as internal alchemy, even kundalini awakening.

 

The sections on working with the vital force could be seen as working with chi. But rather than focusing on the channels and things like that, you just do everything at once. Now there are pros and cons to this approach, especially if you need to address a blockage right then and there. But Bardon is pretty light when it comes to his instructions- you've got to extrapolate quite a bit. William Mistele has a lot of interesting insights on his page (which has been down a lot recently), and says that a master magician from Bardon's system would have just as much health and chi flow as a master of qigong- because they work the same energy and are trying to do the same thing.

 

But since you're familiar with the text, look at some of the wording that is in IIH (and also in Iyengar's "Light on Yoga", if I recall that title correctly): things like focus, thought control, eliminate thoughts, restrict the body movement, a lot of focus on willpower, dominating your body, bringing it under "control" of the mind, you being the "master" of yourself, your thoughts, the elements, etc. You don't "let" things happen, you "make" them happen. You decide what's going to happen, and it happens. Anything else you block or restrict. You dominate. You control. You master. That's the typical "fire" way of thinking.

 

But notice that IIH works with ALL of the elements, and seeks to balance your body, mind, and soul. Of course, this ultimately leads to the upward unification with the divine. You cultivate yourself in "higher" planes of existence. The mental sphere is higher than the astral sphere, which is higher than the physical sphere. The sphere on top controls the one that's below, it's much harder for the lower to impact the higher. To affect change you start from the top, and it carries on down.

 

The water method traditions are not quite like that. But if you're reading Frantzis' stuff, you'll hear the explanation for that tradition.

[devoid]

Hi fatherjhon,

 

I think Taomeow framed it quite nicely.

 

As for water or fire method or tradition it can be said that there is no method or tradition which exclusively works with either fire or water as the two are opposite poles between which you create balance. I guess Bruce Frantzis prefers to make the distinction because he likes to emphasize one over the other.

 

I don't know where you want to take your studies from here, but I could imagine that you would like more info on how to move energy. If this is the case I can recommend considering to look into the microcosmic orbit MCO. My recommendation is to read about it as much as you can before playing around with it too much. (Caution: Many people on this forum disagree vehemently with the self-study-approach and think that you should not read, but instead study with a master and heed his every command )

 

Since you're already on BK Frantzis, I suggest starting / continuing with "Opening the Energy Gates of the Body" and study / practice his recommendations on posture of the body/spine for meditation. Also study / practice his recommendations on silent, abdominal breathing. Once you have all that in place you have a good foundation for starting to look into MCO.

 

A good place to look for MCO are Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming's books - he covers it in several books, but I would say that Qigong Meditation: Small Circulation is the most complete. Apart from the MCO, this book also discusses kan and li, fire path, wind path and water path as well as much more.

 

I wish you happy searching

[寒月 Hanyue]

Never mind...

Edited April 1, 2011 by snowmonki

[steve]

I have a lot of respect for Bruce Frantzis. I think he is a skillful martial artist and his water method books are very good.

I do take issue with some of the things he says about the fire methods. Some of his comments are way off mark and have me questioning his level of experience in fire methods. I've yet to find a book that does justice to fire methods and have pretty much given up on reading about it. Better to try and find a teacher.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Some of his comments are way off mark and have me questioning his level of experience in fire methods.

 

As far as my understanding goes, most of what he went through prior to his training with Liu Hung Chieh was fire method. He went through training to become a Taoist priest, was initiated fully into that, and also trained in yoga, which (a lot of yoga I've seen, anyway) is more fire-oriented.

 

But I think two things should be considered-

 

1) He is only speaking from his experiences. There are methods which would probably be considered fire element by the way he lays it out in his work, but which are really quite balanced, which are just as much committed to establishing the health and happiness of the human body prior to anything too extreme as the water method.

 

2) You can't neglect the marketing angle, and the up-hill battle that he's probably had to fight to get his stuff out to people. I mean consider Mantak Chia over there who's talking about channeling your sexual energy upward to give you multiple orgasms and (for the people who say jing = semen) health (and possibly immortality). Yoga over there talking about awakening raw spiritual energy through kundalini and having you plow through all your chakras to become super powerful/united with divinity. And then you got Mr. Water Method, new kid on the block, saying, "hey, guys, slow down, pay attention to your bodies!"

 

Not a lot of emphasis is placed on the very real potential for harm that is inherent in many systems, and I think Frantzis not only has experiences on both sides of the fence in showing differences, he's had quite a lot of first hand experience with how those systems can DAMAGE you, even if you're doing everything mostly right (which would be a case in which it works TOO well).

 

Everything tastes better with a grain of salt

[fatherjhon]

As for water or fire method or tradition it can be said that there is no method or tradition which exclusively works with either fire or water as the two are opposite poles between which you create balance. I guess Bruce Frantzis prefers to make the distinction because he likes to emphasize one over the other.

 

 

I am starting to see that. Frantzis spends a LOT of time in this book separating the two traditions, that was confusing.

 

I don't know where you want to take your studies from here, but I could imagine that you would like more info on how to move energy. If this is the case I can recommend considering to look into the microcosmic orbit MCO. My recommendation is to read about it as much as you can before playing around with it too much. (Caution: Many people on this forum disagree vehemently with the self-study-approach and think that you should not read, but instead study with a master and heed his every command )

 

Since you're already on BK Frantzis, I suggest starting / continuing with "Opening the Energy Gates of the Body" and study / practice his recommendations on posture of the body/spine for meditation. Also study / practice his recommendations on silent, abdominal breathing. Once you have all that in place you have a good foundation for starting to look into MCO.

 

A good place to look for MCO are Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming's books - he covers it in several books, but I would say that Qigong Meditation: Small Circulation is the most complete. Apart from the MCO, this book also discusses kan and li, fire path, wind path and water path as well as much more.

 

Its not so much I am looking for info on moving energy as I am trying to find something that does not sound like some new-age yuppy explaining flower power. Someone mentioned Mantak Chia, he is the sort of person I have trouble learning from. He may well know what he is saying but, his "Taoist Studies" series for example, lacks the depth that rings credible for me. Its one thing to say, "go sit under a tree" or "convert jing to shen" but if they don't cover why, how, the reasoning behind it, and why this way over another, then I have trouble taking their word for it. But who knows until recently I was a philosophical Taoist then found a book on The Mao-Shan Tradition, so I might be off.

 

I come from another side of energy work that has a... very narrow use for it. I am hoping to find something to expand my repertoire so to speak. Opening the Energy Gates of the Body was a useful book for its detail on dissolving points. I will have to look into Yang Jwing-Ming's books. Thank you.

 

If you think it is simple it is, if you think it is complicated it is. Simple

 

Let me put it another way. It does NOT matter HOW you classify things, it is just a model for understanding. If the model does not help you understand, don't try and force it, there is no point.

 

Pick an approach (tradition, lineage, teacher, system) and get your head around that. Understand why they classify and define things the way they do, then later, if you look elsewhere you can come to understand why they do things their way.

[/]

Personally I think a good teacher is more than worth their weight in gold and it is worth the time and effort in finding one, like Abraham Lincoln's: "If I had six hours to chop down a tree, I'd spend the first four hours sharpening the axe"

 

True, true, yet I seem to have gone from one to another without grounding. Oh well, I'm working on it.

[devoid]

Its not so much I am looking for info on moving energy as I am trying to find something that does not sound like some new-age yuppy explaining flower power. Someone mentioned Mantak Chia, he is the sort of person I have trouble learning from. He may well know what he is saying but, his "Taoist Studies" series for example, lacks the depth that rings credible for me. Its one thing to say, "go sit under a tree" or "convert jing to shen" but if they don't cover why, how, the reasoning behind it, and why this way over another, then I have trouble taking their word for it. But who knows until recently I was a philosophical Taoist then found a book on The Mao-Shan Tradition, so I might be off.

 

I come from another side of energy work that has a... very narrow use for it. I am hoping to find something to expand my repertoire so to speak. Opening the Energy Gates of the Body was a useful book for its detail on dissolving points. I will have to look into Yang Jwing-Ming's books. Thank you.

 

I can't read Mantak Chia either. You'll be pleased to know that Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming has a Ph.D. in physics from Purdue and starts out most of his books with describing his own understanding of the underlying theory of energy.

[寒月 Hanyue]

Never mind...

Edited April 1, 2011 by snowmonki

[寒月 Hanyue]

Never mind...

Edited April 1, 2011 by snowmonki

[Jetsun]

From my own experience the Water Method is very good but you have to keep in mind your own character and constitution as I when I practiced I would get some negative symptoms like extreme cold in the body as I think I was already watery by nature, so I would have to balance it out by going on long walks and exercising which was a sort of fire method, while someone like Bruce Frantzis is already a very fiery person by nature so most probably wouldn't have any negative symptoms as it would bring him into natural balance. Although for some people they may try use strong fire methods to try to escape from the vulnerable yin emotions exposed by the water method so you could undo all the potential benefit from facing upto those vulnerable states. So I guess I'm saying only you can decide what best suits you at the current time, personally I didn't find trying to balance out my symptoms from water with fire worked so I gave it up, but I may one day go back to it once I'm in a different state in my being.

[三江源]

Just want to say snowmonki , I sympathise with and respect your deciding to delete your posts.. and also to tell you that I'm glad I got them before they went, I enjoyed them, found them helpful and interesting indeed, and appreciated your input. thankyou.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Just want to say snowmonki , I sympathise with and respect your deciding to delete your posts.. and also to tell you that I'm glad I got them before they went, I enjoyed them, found them helpful and interesting indeed, and appreciated your input. thankyou.

 

Awww....

 

I need to stay patched in to TTB 24/7 so I miss nothing!!!!!

[ralis]

Isn't there too much emphasis on the body being a sort of plumbing system of channels, nadi's etc.? Maybe Bardon has it right in emphasizing the body as being transparent and working from there.

[fatherjhon]

From my own experience the Water Method is very good but you have to keep in mind your own character and constitution as I when I practiced I would get some negative symptoms like extreme cold in the body as I think I was already watery by nature, so I would have to balance it out by going on long walks and exercising which was a sort of fire method, while someone like Bruce Frantzis is already a very fiery person by nature so most probably wouldn't have any negative symptoms as it would bring him into natural balance. Although for some people they may try use strong fire methods to try to escape from the vulnerable yin emotions exposed by the water method so you could undo all the potential benefit from facing upto those vulnerable states. So I guess I'm saying only you can decide what best suits you at the current time, personally I didn't find trying to balance out my symptoms from water with fire worked so I gave it up, but I may one day go back to it once I'm in a different state in my being.

 

Yes, I have generally yin chi to start with so every bump and scratch all ready threatens to turn to a chronic six month ordeal. I find I can compensate somewhat for it by using Buddhist hard body chigong - the effects only last for a while but it helps.

 

Isn't there too much emphasis on the body being a sort of plumbing system of channels, nadi's etc.? Maybe Bardon has it right in emphasizing the body as being transparent and working from there.

 

I don't know, having red that book it seems like he glosses over too much of the nuance that allows for finer work. I have always viewed Bardon's ideas as the metaphysical equivalent of finger painting. But then I got nothing from his book so I'm more than a tad bias.

[寒月 Hanyue]

Just want to say snowmonki , I sympathise with and respect your deciding to delete your posts.. and also to tell you that I'm glad I got them before they went, I enjoyed them, found them helpful and interesting indeed, and appreciated your input. thankyou.

 

Hi Cat. Thank you, that is very kind of you to say. And it is greatly appreciated

 

To everyone, I only post when I get an internal pull that I might be able to help. I realised that in fact I had missed Fatherjohn's real question, and as such my posts were not in line with that enquiry. So I've deleted them. I also had a feeling as to why Fatherjohn had not been explicit in his OP, so I PM'd Fatherjohn and we've talked instead. I'm glad I did.

 

Best,