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shao yung

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i had thought about posting a thread about shao yung but didnt.i have mentioned him in another thread or 2 and really no return comments about him. but today a poem of his was mentioned by another member here. he does have relevance to trigrams but i felt any discussion about shao yung and his contributions really should have its own thread.

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B) shao yung was a philosopher, mathemetician,historian,poet,scientist,sage, and prophet whose vision of the future extended up to and beyond our own time. perhaps only the words of the I ching itself can describe the essence of his greatness.

in this way the holy sages purified their hearts, withdrew, and hid themselves in the secret. they concerned themselves with good fortune and misfortune in common with other men. they were divine,hence they knew the future; they were wise. hence they stored up the past.who is it that can do all of this/ only the reason and clearmindedness of the ancients, their knowledge and wisdom, their unremitting divine power.

i took this from Da Liu I ching numerology.

 

with some of these remarkable individuals mentioned in chinese folklore, legends, etc. it is hard to know if the person really exisited or not . like lao tze, fu xi, nu wa, yellow emperor, and so on. with shao yung who is more recent in the records we do know that he exisited and did accomplish these things. (i think this provides support that the others exisited also, but thats just my thought about it)

IMO shao yung is the one person in history who was able to combine scientific methods and observations to metaphysical thought.

IMO the Huang Chi Ching Shih Shu is without equal from any surviving works from any culture.

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thankyou Friend for the link to the poem "long ode to watching weiqi"

 

shao yung lived in the first century of the sung dynasty, a peaceful time when

intellectual and cultural life and philosophy flourished. he reflected in his life and work a fusion of confucious,taoist, buddhist thought. this was the time for a synthesis of these philosophies.

in his youth he studied the classics. his reputation as a student got the attention of Li Chih Ts'ai who taught Shao taoism and the lore of the I ching. he began receiving instruction from the school of Symbol and Number. many of the teachings were in the form of diagrams,tables, and elaborate charts passed down from Chen Tuan.

ancient chinese and pythagoreans made no distinction between mathematics and numerology. the chinese charactor "suan" that means "predict" also means "calculate".

numerology is the mathematics of metaphysics.

the numerological formulas that Shao Yung studied do more than serve in the art of "fortune telling" (your term). they work as a guide to developing perception and intuition. to observe and select correctly.

the sage is a person able by means of his one single mind to observe myriad other minds,by means of his own single body to observe myriad other bodies, by means of a single(external)object a myriad of other objects....is not such worldwide observation broad in perception?

taken from Princeton university press Shao Yung's own definition. A History of Chinese Philosophy

secluding himself in a forest Shao Yung became an ardent student of the I ching.

many times in these tales there in a mysterious old man involved. we will look at that next time. :ninja:

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i give plus two for the post by friend. imo excellent insight and understanding of the conceptual approach.

"can you give us the missing link to cultivation Shao Yong provide?"

it is with great pleasure that this thread will look at shao yung, his life, his work, his formulas,diagrams, numerology.....

he is in a long line of chinese philosophers who discovered new meaning in the structure and workings of the I ching.

 

also as already realized yin xin fa longmenpai. chen tuan still part of the discussion and very welcome in the basement on my re-direct thread. i am fine with going off topic here, but if detailed look at these specific ideas is sought , then maybe the basement. :closedeyes:

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so there is this book of shao yung's work, compilled by his son 'shao pei wen.

The Book of Great Philosophy( Huang Chi Ching Shih Shu). published in 5 volumes, it contains a chronological,cosmological, and astrological table of indcations of important past events and predictions of future events in the history of china.

it begins in 2357 bce (why then at that date?).these predictions comprise an index

not only to past and future events but also to the evolution of all life forms in the universe.

it has anticipated many subsequent findings in geology,anthropology, and archeology.

 

also included in this book is a treatise on The Observation of Things, which describes,explains, and categorizes the innate qualities of natural phenomena,

animals,plants, and people.

the timeline that this book covers with its predictions ,beginning at 2357 bce continues from there another 129,600 years.

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also included in this book is a treatise on The Observation of Things, which describes,explains, and categorizes the innate qualities of natural phenomena,

animals,plants, and people.

the timeline that this book covers with its predictions ,beginning at 2357 bce continues from there another 129,600 years.

 

The Observation of Things, and the innate qualities of natural phenomena. I would be greatly interested in this, these very things are what a shaman would use to develop ceremony and utilize those qualities to help get rid of a particular phenomena. The 'power animal' concept of the shamanic world sounds similar, but I'm betting that the Observations he made are astounding and much more in depth than the normal power animal understandings.

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As an outstanding Taoist scholar who attains quite a high level of accomplishment , Shao Yong writes a lot of good Taoist poems, below are some of them:

 

- When talking about the Heart of cosmos(天心)* ( something similar to the Buddha Heart), he writes :

 

天心復處是無心 (The Heart of cosmos originates from a status of mindlessness , )

心到無時無處尋 (yet if we are mindless , how can we still have a mind to find or be found ?)

若謂無心便無事 ( If you think mindlessness is something useless , )

水中何故却生金 (then why in Water** gold light arises and abounds)

 

 

* Taoist Heart of cosmos , at first look, looks similar to Hegel's Absolute Spirit, yet there is ,in fact, great differences between them : One is a product of philosophcal reasoning , but claimed to be the self-consciousness of a Spirit embodied and developed in the human history ;one comes from practical experiences in refining & sublimating qi..

 

** Here, it refers to the lower dantian.

 

 

-When talking about why Tao gives people freedom beyond the chase of ghost and fate, Shao Yong writes:

 

一念不生 ( There is no mind arising from me)

鬼神莫知( (so, no gods and ghosts can know what I think and my deeds )

不由乎己( In that case , I get the control in my hands)

更由乎誰 ( not succumbing to any other forces)

Edited by exorcist_1699
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As an outstanding Taoist scholar who attains quite a high level of accomplishment , Shao Yong writes quite a lot of good Taoist poems, below are some of them:

 

- When talking about the Heart of cosmos(天心)* ( something similar to the Buddha Heart), he writes :

 

天心復處是無心 (The Heart of cosmos originates from a status of mindlessness , )

心到無時無處尋 (yet if we are mindless , how can we still have a mind to find or be found ?)

若謂無心便無事 ( If you think mindlessness is something useless , )

水中何故却生金 (then why in Water** gold light arises and abounds)

 

 

*

not bad Xerocist, but u do misunderstand last 2 lines rather sigificantly.

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The Observation of Things, and the innate qualities of natural phenomena. I would be greatly interested in this, these very things are what a shaman would use to develop ceremony and utilize those qualities to help get rid of a particular phenomena. The 'power animal' concept of the shamanic world sounds similar, but I'm betting that the Observations he made are astounding and much more in depth than the normal power animal understandings.

with shao yung we get a decent look at a gifted sage. shao yung was born in 1011,

his parents poor peasant farmers.

he always lived in a meager shelter,did his own planting and plowing. he always continued his studies and wrote down his ideas.

 

he lived in a unique time when the confucians, buddhists, and taoists were first intermingling and sharing ideas. he had traveled all over china and settled into lo-yang. geographically this was the center of china, had been an ancient capital..

it was situated on the yellow, lo , and yi rivers and was a center of trade and cultural activity.

 

here at lo-yang he met up with other philosophers of the time. they didnt want this guy traveling on, so they chipped in and bought shao yung a piece of property.

on this property, which he named An Lo Wo( peaceful and joyful nest) shao yung built a simple house and planted a garden. he would burn incense in the morning and quietly observe the world around him. in the evening he would drink a little wine.

 

he wrote poetry for his own enjoyment and received the many folks who came to visit him. some called him mr. peace and joy, others called him master shao.

when he would travel around in his ox-drawn cart he was a welcome guest everywhere he went. some of his friends even built a guest house just for him that was modeled on his own house.

 

shao was somewhat of a legend based on his kindness and compassion. he was natural and friendly with all people ,regardless of their social standing. he encouraged and praised them in their acheivements. he avoided condemning or judgement when he saw their limitations or mistakes. shao yung was very modest and unassuming. he was a great listener, he never lectured or flaunted his vast knowledge. which he would share but he did choose carefully who to share with.

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not bad Xerocist, but u do misunderstand last 2 lines rather sigificantly.

 

 

aaarrrrrgggghhhhhh

 

That type of comment is so annoying.

 

Why not give your interpretation instead. Or is this knowledge you must keep from us?

 

Peace

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aaarrrrrgggghhhhhh

 

That type of comment is so annoying.

 

Why not give your interpretation instead. Or is this knowledge you must keep from us?

 

Peace

Hi;)

 

largely because while its ok to let the driver behind you kno that there is a trafic jam ahead, its unasked for to tell him where does he need to go

 

since u asked, the 3rd line reads "if you think that mindlessness is JUST DOING NOTHING.."

 

(then u r sorely mistaken) ;)

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it was King Wen who translated the symbols of the 8 trigrams into words. he named the 64 hexagrams, arranged them in a sequence, and wrote the text known as the Judgement.

he also wrote the text for each individual line for all the hexagrams.

so, the 8 trigrams and 64 hexagrams became a book ( I Ching ).

 

King Wen translated the symbols of the 8 trigrams into words. Lao Tzu and Confucious

distilled the symbolic meanings of the I Ching into philosphical concepts.

 

Lao Tzu does not refer directly to the I Ching in the Tao Te Ching, However, the fundamental concepts of his philosophy were influenced by the metaphysical relationship between man and nature on which the symbolism of the I Ching is based.

his followers, the Taoists, became the leading exponents of the use of the I Ching

for numerology, prediction, and meditation.

 

Confucious wrote extensive commentaries on the I Ching. The Ten Wings are his explanations of the meanings of the trigrams, hexagrams, their changes and symbols.

He enlarged the scope of the symbols(trigrams) clarified the meanings of the hexagrams

and the individual lines. the Ten Wings became part of the text of the I Ching itself.

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Confucious wrote

"What is above form is called Tao; what is within form is called tool."

he describes 2 aspects of the substance of things in the world(form)-

the transcendent Tao and the practical worldly tool.

this distinction of 2 aspects of the I Ching led to 3 different schools of

Chinese philosophy.

1. Rationalism (Confucian) which emphasized correct behaivor for society

and for the "superior man" a term which is used throughout the I Ching.

2. Meditation (Taoist)

3. Symbol and Number (Taoist) emphasized the metaphysical arts of prediction

and numerology.

 

the latter school included Chen Tuan(mentioned previously) and other scholars who

studied the evolution of the numbers assigned to the trigrams and that relation

to the process of prediction.

there was also a nameless old man who bequeathed his formulas to Shao Yung.

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shao yung foretold future events for a 129,600 year period in his Cosmological Chronology, but he did not foretell the events of his own time. when asked why,

-he replied-

"the wise man does not predict events concerning the government in power. if he

interprets good fortune, people will smile and say he is only flattering the

authorities. if he interprets misfortune, the authorities will become angry and accuse him of slander and he may meet with disaster"

 

throughout the history of china many great soothsayers were executed becoz they antagonized the ruling power with their prophecies.

 

shao young wrote ten prophetic poems describing historical events in china from the sung dynasty to the present and beyond. these poems, which use metaphysical language and imagery. can be understood only after the events described have occurred.

they are included in the book Chung Kuo Ch'i Chung Yu Yen (the 7 prophecies of china)

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There is a story going round that claims Shao Yong was the person who actually invented the pre- and post-Heavenly Trigram arrangements, the Ba Gua symbols.

 

This is because his books seem to document the first time they appeared in any historical text...

 

However, because so much of Chinese culture, including cultivation practices, medicine, architecture, etc, were based on the dynamics these symbols represent, this suggests that much of the gold of Yi Jing wisdom did not originate during its conception, but gradually developed over thousands of years and culminated in the Song dynasty with the advent of neo-confucianism.

 

Even though this trend cannot be refuted, it leads to conclusion that the essence of the Yi Jing was not fully matured when it was first written.... which throws into doubt its original magnificence.

 

This is where modern scholarship on the Yi Jing tends to sway.

 

Can anyone argue the latter?

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There is a story going round that claims Shao Yong was the person who actually invented the pre- and post-Heavenly Trigram arrangements, the Ba Gua symbols.

 

This is because his books seem to document the first time they appeared in any historical text...

 

However, because so much of Chinese culture, including cultivation practices, medicine, architecture, etc, were based on the dynamics these symbols represent, this suggests that much of the gold of Yi Jing wisdom did not originate during its conception, but gradually developed over thousands of years and culminated in the Song dynasty with the advent of neo-confucianism.

 

Even though this trend cannot be refuted, it leads to conclusion that the essence of the Yi Jing was not fully matured when it was first written.... which throws into doubt its original magnificence.

 

This is where modern scholarship on the Yi Jing tends to sway.

 

Can anyone argue the latter?

 

Please take a look at my avatar. This is the original I Ching arrangement. Shao Yong had nothing to do with it. It arises spontaneously. I Ching is not "made up" by anyone. It is a natural phenomenon. The diagrams are aplenty but the phenomenon is one.

 

Print out the Circular I Ching diagram and rotate it slightly toward a normal natural alignment of the first (inner) black and white circle with your everyday normal natural human perceptions -- the "heavy" sinks to the bottom and the "light" floats to the top. Feel the separation of wuji into yin and yang with your human senses -- they suffice. Watch the world rotate, set in motion by this "sinking down" and "floating up." Watch yin and yang intermixed once again by this rotation, after the initial separation. Watch them separate again because one is "heavier" and the other 'lighter." Watch them move in directions that are in accord with their nature -- "up" and "down" -- and now also "sideways" due to the rotation -- the "sideways" movement will give you "cardinal directions" (also not made up) -- and again... up to 64, after which comes chaos.

 

The scholarship of the I Ching tends to sway because people have been conditioned to disregard anything "ordinary human," and human senses and sensibilities especially, when doing things "scientific" or "spiritual." I Ching, however, is a phenomenon of reality -- and reality doesn't work this way. Whoever studies the I Ching on any premises of unreality is bound to sway. In reality, there's no capsule where a scientist can sit separately from her human nature and do "objective studies." Nor is there a "spiritual" capsule where you can sit as some "we are all one" or other that somehow excludes the actual you who was born to your actual mother and father. Anyone encapsulated in such a lie, whether mathematician or mystic or both wrapped into one, is bound to sway.

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Confucious wrote

"What is above form is called Tao; what is within form is called tool."

he describes 2 aspects of the substance of things in the world(form)-

the transcendent Tao and the practical worldly tool.

this distinction of 2 aspects of the I Ching led to 3 different schools of

Chinese philosophy.

1. Rationalism (Confucian) which emphasized correct behaivor for society

and for the "superior man" a term which is used throughout the I Ching.

2. Meditation (Taoist)

3. Symbol and Number (Taoist) emphasized the metaphysical arts of prediction

and numerology.

 

 

 

 

maybe someone will generously correct me on this, but I've read that Confucius became the scholar that he was by studying the I Ching, so I don't see how his above quote would have led to a school of Taoist meditation, since the I Ching was originally written by Taoists.

 

Was I reading some Taoist propaganda, or can anyone back this up?

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Please take a look at my avatar. This is the original I Ching arrangement. Shao Yong had nothing to do with it. It arises spontaneously. I Ching is not "made up" by anyone. It is a natural phenomenon. The diagrams are aplenty but the phenomenon is one.

 

Print out the Circular I Ching diagram and rotate it slightly toward a normal natural alignment of the first (inner) black and white circle with your everyday normal natural human perceptions -- the "heavy" sinks to the bottom and the "light" floats to the top. Feel the separation of wuji into yin and yang with your human senses -- they suffice. Watch the world rotate, set in motion by this "sinking down" and "floating up." Watch yin and yang intermixed once again by this rotation, after the initial separation. Watch them separate again because one is "heavier" and the other 'lighter." Watch them move in directions that are in accord with their nature -- "up" and "down" -- and now also "sideways" due to the rotation -- the "sideways" movement will give you "cardinal directions" (also not made up) -- and again... up to 64, after which comes chaos.

 

The scholarship of the I Ching tends to sway because people have been conditioned to disregard anything "ordinary human," and human senses and sensibilities especially, when doing things "scientific" or "spiritual." I Ching, however, is a phenomenon of reality -- and reality doesn't work this way. Whoever studies the I Ching on any premises of unreality is bound to sway. In reality, there's no capsule where a scientist can sit separately from her human nature and do "objective studies." Nor is there a "spiritual" capsule where you can sit as some "we are all one" or other that somehow excludes the actual you who was born to your actual mother and father. Anyone encapsulated in such a lie, whether mathematician or mystic or both wrapped into one, is bound to sway.

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This is the most beautiful way to look at the phenomena...

 

It is also, when it boils down to it, the most truthful way to relate to the Yi Jing- in the here and now, with the world spinning around us.

 

It is also true that the 'modernist' scholarship, which bases it's theories primarily on the archeological findings of the Shang dynasty and their limited understanding of the pre-classical language of original layer of the Yi Jing, the Zhou Yi, is bound to sway into a purely speculative, theoretical understanding of the Yi Jing, detached from the direct experiential truth that first inspired the its writing. The reality of the ancient Chinese is one and the same as ours, but the filters in which most of us modern people see reality make it very different from any indigenous perspective.

 

Even though the Yi Jing is a magnificent and dynamic model of the world, it nevertheless is also a text, which underwent change itself.

 

The trick seems to be to find a balance between the purely experiential way of using/understanding the Yi Jing, and one that incorporates the vast culture that has developed around it, therein lies the rub.

 

But how can one break off and engage with it directly before spending a good deal of time studying the texts, images, commentaries and then being inevitably influenced by the conceptions and misconceptions of previous students?

 

 

 

 

Please take a look at my avatar. This is the original I Ching arrangement. Shao Yong had nothing to do with it. It arises spontaneously. I Ching is not "made up" by anyone. It is a natural phenomenon. The diagrams are aplenty but the phenomenon is one.

 

Print out the Circular I Ching diagram and rotate it slightly toward a normal natural alignment of the first (inner) black and white circle with your everyday normal natural human perceptions -- the "heavy" sinks to the bottom and the "light" floats to the top. Feel the separation of wuji into yin and yang with your human senses -- they suffice. Watch the world rotate, set in motion by this "sinking down" and "floating up." Watch yin and yang intermixed once again by this rotation, after the initial separation. Watch them separate again because one is "heavier" and the other 'lighter." Watch them move in directions that are in accord with their nature -- "up" and "down" -- and now also "sideways" due to the rotation -- the "sideways" movement will give you "cardinal directions" (also not made up) -- and again... up to 64, after which comes chaos.

 

The scholarship of the I Ching tends to sway because people have been conditioned to disregard anything "ordinary human," and human senses and sensibilities especially, when doing things "scientific" or "spiritual." I Ching, however, is a phenomenon of reality -- and reality doesn't work this way. Whoever studies the I Ching on any premises of unreality is bound to sway. In reality, there's no capsule where a scientist can sit separately from her human nature and do "objective studies." Nor is there a "spiritual" capsule where you can sit as some "we are all one" or other that somehow excludes the actual you who was born to your actual mother and father. Anyone encapsulated in such a lie, whether mathematician or mystic or both wrapped into one, is bound to sway.

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maybe someone will generously correct me on this, but I've read that Confucius became the scholar that he was by studying the I Ching, so I don't see how his above quote would have led to a school of Taoist meditation, since the I Ching was originally written by Taoists.

 

Was I reading some Taoist propaganda, or can anyone back this up?

 

There is a lot of mythology to sort through when dealing with the history of the Yi Jing.

 

The Yi Jing was written before the formal aspect of Daoism took shape. If the definition of Daoist is 'adhering to the wisdom in nature' then indeed it was written by Daoists, but then again every other indigenous peoples could be called Daoist as well.

 

The Ten Wings of the Yi Jing are contributed to Confucius, but this is generally out of respect and in reality this cannot have been so. The Confucian way of thinking had a considerable impact on the way the Yi Jing was studied and understood, leading to the Yi Li Jia/school of meaning and principle. The Daoist way of looking at the Yi Jing predated Confucius and is generally more related to the divanatory practices of the Yi Jing and the Xiang Shu Jia/school of image and number.

 

Its a complicated subject and confounded by a lot of misrepresentation at many stages of history and by many different opinions. the history books were written mostly by those in power. The Daoists generally didn't seek power in government.

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This is the most beautiful way to look at the phenomena...

 

It is also, when it boils down to it, the most truthful way to relate to the Yi Jing- in the here and now, with the world spinning around us.

 

It is also true that the 'modernist' scholarship, which bases it's theories primarily on the archeological findings of the Shang dynasty and their limited understanding of the pre-classical language of original layer of the Yi Jing, the Zhou Yi, is bound to sway into a purely speculative, theoretical understanding of the Yi Jing, detached from the direct experiential truth that first inspired the its writing. The reality of the ancient Chinese is one and the same as ours, but the filters in which most of us modern people see reality make it very different from any indigenous perspective.

 

Even though the Yi Jing is a magnificent and dynamic model of the world, it nevertheless is also a text, which underwent change itself.

 

The trick seems to be to find a balance between the purely experiential way of using/understanding the Yi Jing, and one that incorporates the vast culture that has developed around it, therein lies the rub.

 

But how can one break off and engage with it directly before spending a good deal of time studying the texts, images, commentaries and then being inevitably influenced by the conceptions and misconceptions of previous students?

 

.al., thank you for your thoughts -- yup, "filters" is a good metaphor, and filters are tricky... when sifting for gold, you don't want to start with the finest-meshed sieve or you will throw out the biggest nuggets -- and never even know that you empoverished yourself hunting down the "bright sand" (as taoist classics put it) while discarding solid gold. I view "human normality" as solid gold -- and all scientific, spiritual, cultivational, intellectual, textual, etc., "refinements" as playing in the sand box... It's fun, but it's no longer fun when playing in the sand box is mistaken for the be-all and end-all of existence.

 

So, the balance, as you rightfully assert, is crucial... I'm not in favor of discarding the "bright sand" at all, nothing we have is worth discarding or we wouldn't have it -- the intellect and the intuition, the logical "wow" and the sensory, they all matter when you're approaching a phenomenon of reality as all-encompassing as the I Ching. My point was, we lose the moment we discard any part of the whole -- the scholarly fascination (you trace the binary code to the I Ching and then to Leibniz the intermediary between the ancient Chinese civilization and the computer you're currently using, and you are awed and wowed by the sheer facts!) OR the diviner's thrill (you ask "do I go or stay" and the I Ching says "the water will rise, don't stay and don't go, RUN!" -- and in forty-five minutes you get the news of a flood coming in... in real life, pertaining to the river you were contemplating crossing or not crossing, the one so often mentioned in the I Ching in the metaphorical sense... and you are awed and wowed but you're also spurred to action -- and run! because she told you so! and was right! as usual!)

 

In Xi'an, I've seen the pavillion of the official "national treasure" I Ching diviner, a master of lineage, who got his knowledge transmitted by his teachers who worked and played with the I Ching before him, and got the know-how from their teachers who went before, and so on into antiquity (if the lineage is true, which I hope it is.:)) Ideally, you study ancient things this way... People used to, in all cultures. A boy in Somalia was required to know the names and deeds of two hundred of his ancestors by age 6, all transmitted orally. (I read about it in an article that failed to mention girls, which makes me wonder why -- were they not important in the transmission of culture, OR is the modern reporter ASSUMING it and skewing the picture accordingly?..) The names and deeds of one's ancestors, taken far enough, blended smoothly into the tribe's mythology, sooner or later you ran into ancestors who directly communicated with gods and goddesses of your tribe, they were all family and you were supposed to remember. "Mythos" does not mean what we are told it means. The original Greek translation is "stories of ancestors and gods that were sworn by kings or priests under oath to be true."

 

So, on a more practical note... If such unbroken tradition no longer survives, looking for what's missing so as to mend the gaps is a noble enterprise, IMO. Can take more than a lifetime, but the first thing to "get" would be the right approach, and the right approach is to understand the difference between reinventing and restoring. The I Ching in its graphic and textual form was fully functional as a diviner's oracle for thousands of years; reinventing its role as something else, denying its appropriateness for the very purpose it was created for, is not "scientific" in my book, it's arrogant and ignorant, it's the latest Johnny-come-lately announcing that he is the smartest and most proficient interpreter of anything under the sun who ever lived, it's the dominant baboon of the moment (of the century or two) pounding his chest in a display of brutal force... that's how I view all the "reasoning" behind using the I Ching any which way but the human way for which it was meant to be used primarily. The binary code the computer uses is secondary. The man and the woman who use the computer today, instead of sticks and stones and tortoise shells they used yesterday, are primary. So... The primary way to establish contacts with the I Ching is to get humble, imo... and a humble approach to the I Ching is traditionally known as "divination," which presupposes that you ask a question you humbly and sincerely believe she knows the answer to better than you do. Scholarship can come before, after, or together with this -- but if it comes "instead of this," it will sway, I guarantee it.:)

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