Dabbling in bagua zhang

[spiraltao]

Great graphic for the eight mother palms, Friend!

 

 

 

I am more familiar with them as, heaven, earth, fire, thunder, water, wind, mountain, and pond/cloud.

 

 

 

 

 

Yin Fu was a snake specialist, no? and Cheng Ting Hua was wrestler, correct? That is what I was getting at, sorry for any confusion.

Edited May 28, 2012 by jaysahnztao

[Mal]

Did any TTB's manage to learn bagua from Bruce Frantzis's DVD series of know of anyone who has?

 

?

[Gerard]

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Edited October 18, 2012 by Gerard

[GreytoWhite]

Two things I don't care for in these videos. 1. He sticks his azz out like a shaolin player. 2. He turns his Bai step inwards towards the inner part of the circle (twisting on the ankle and knee).

 

According to the Xei Peiqi lineage bagua folks Gong Baotian was taught the Monkey system by Yin Fu which included a number of kicking and lightness techniques. It was apparently modified and taught in an incomplete form later because someone used that system to murder people. The qing gong work has different requirements, the vertical force and energy is much more difficult to channel than your typical Microcosmic Orbit, up the Governing and then down the Conception. From what I understand, a lot of the lightness comes from controlling the legs with the solar plexus chakra and middle dantian over the lower dantian.

 

This is kind of a reverse process for sending force and energy through the spine. Where fa jing with the hands is dependent on tucking the tail bone, a quick release of the tuck and then return to that position, performing qing gong techniques is quite a bit different. Michael Guen has talked of difficulty in integrating the internal organs so they are not damaged in practice as well as his personal inability to combine Yang taiji mechanics with the vertical force. Another interesting note is that the pao chui set from the Gong Baozhai branch resembles a Ma Gui lineage set as well as a Fu Zhen Song set.

[Gerard]

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Edited September 13, 2013 by Gerard

[steve]

No, I mean Tiger's mouth.. the part of the hand between the thumb and first finger.

 

I mean sitting back and sliding the advancing foot while circle walking. I just am absolutely not a fan of this style of circle walking.

 

Maybe Gerard's right.. I just don't understand why they do that. Looks "wushu" like to me.

This style of stepping is pretty common in a variety of Bagua systems.

It's very traditional, definitely not a Wushu modification.

It's called mud-stepping.

 

Lot's of reasons to practice it - balance, timing, integration with standing practice, many more.

Here's a pretty good link discussing it: http://pakuachangjou...Walk.php?page=5

I used it exclusively for the first few years I practiced the circle. Now I often just walk naturally but periodically return to the mud step for the training benefits. A lot of the martial applications in bagua involve sweeps, powerful waist turns, kicks, changes of direction - these all benefit greatly from the mud stepping practice.

 

One the other hand, if you don't like it there is still plenty of value to practicing without it - to each their own.

 

The main thing that bothers me about this vid (and many others, to be honest) is that he doesn't really seem to make much effort to dynamically turn the waist in toward the center with each step. That is a very valuable skill to be mastered from walking the circle and really is a beautiful core stretching/strengthening aspect of Bagua that leads to very powerful waist turning. Lot's of videos seem to lack this. Not sure why... maybe just different emphasis in different schools, but I think this is one of the fundamental benefits of circle walking. Maybe folks are just hiding it...

...And maybe I just don't know what the f.... I'm talking about!

 

Edit - here's a nice image of turning in toward the center while walking the circle. This is how the walking "should" look and is also a very effective standing posture. I used quotes for should because I'm not trying to say it's the only way but the benefits are remarkable. Try it and see!

 

 

 

 

Another which also shows lifting the leg with palm change which I think is a great training method. Most of the time I extend my knee in a slow kick with the palm change as opposed to keeping the knee flexed as shown below - really works the hip flexors and quads, not to mention the balance.

 

Edited October 18, 2012 by steve

[Gerard]

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Edited September 13, 2013 by Gerard

[GreytoWhite]

It looks like John Bracy recently started an internal arts virtual training program as well.

 

http://chiarts.com/index.php

 

I liked Ken Gullette's instruction, it was very clear and well presented. He doesn't believe in any of the more mystical aspects so if you're looking for that he's not the guy. He does however give a very clear progression and has a great selection of videos at a low cost. His views on internal strength coincide pretty well with Mike Sigman's. Sigman's material is a good way for beginners to start learning jin but will not allow one to advance as Sigman himself is only an intermediate level player, like Gullette.

 

http://www.internalfightingarts.com/home.php?varset=s:415-pm:p

[Baguakid]

Hey Steve... Just for the record... our style doesn't use "that" type of posture while stepping... While I do like the first pic you posted... FROM WHAT i'VE SEEN ON THE WEB/YOUTUBE I have not seen anyone I like perform a back seated posture as well as the gentleman in the first pic. I would like to see a video of him. Personally... I again state, I do not like it. If I can find someone who executes that posture to my liking I would change my tune.. until then.. not so.

 

And, we also have "mud stepping" .. just not with the back seated posture.

 

Anyway, that's my view.... from where I sit...

 

Best.

[steve]

Hey Steve... Just for the record... our style doesn't use "that" type of posture while stepping... While I do like the first pic you posted... FROM WHAT i'VE SEEN ON THE WEB/YOUTUBE I have not seen anyone I like perform a back seated posture as well as the gentleman in the first pic. I would like to see a video of him. Personally... I again state, I do not like it. If I can find someone who executes that posture to my liking I would change my tune.. until then.. not so.

 

And, we also have "mud stepping" .. just not with the back seated posture.

 

Anyway, that's my view.... from where I sit...

 

Best.

Hmmm, so how do you do the mud step?

At some point in the process, the weight is on the stable leg as the other foot slides forward, hovering over the ground.

Just before the weight is transferred, the weight must be on the back leg, no?

What style do you practice?

 

Best regards,

[Gerard]

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Edited September 13, 2013 by Gerard

[Baguakid]

Don't lose the view of the moon by focusing too much on the finger. Opening the mind and spiritual realisation (including a highly ethical behaviour) are the most important goals of practice.

 

Do you have this sort of mind opening, like a child, soft and non-judgemental and driven by emotions?

 

http://tinyurl.com/8laak4c

 

And here's an excellent Bagua, soft, flowing, smiling with the mind of a child.

 

http://tinyurl.com/96uk4qm

 

He's actually the teacher of that other master you judged because of back arching.

 

At 76 years of age his mind, attitude and spirit look pretty OK to me.

 

I'm sorry Gerard, just not a fan. Don't have a lot of time to reply as my work is busy right now but the flrst link I was doing that in the early 80s in kungfu.. so don't get your point.

 

Second link... not a fan...

 

Steve, here's someone from our lineage. Zhang Dugan. He I understand was quite sick when performing this so take that into consideration.

 

 

It's hard to get across on the web our exchanges guys.. . so for what it's worth, I'm open but still haven't seen too much which flips my fiddle...

 

peace.. !!

[Gerard]

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Edited September 13, 2013 by Gerard

[Baguakid]

Here's a great article written by Frantzis (if you haven't read it yet). It clearly shows the complexity, immense depth and benefits of this multifaceted energetic art:

 

http://www.baguamast...erview-archive/

 

You probably by now think I'm nuts Gerard so let me add to that perception. I am not a fan of BKF at all and don't believe at all, based on what I've seen on the net, that he has a deep understanding of internal arts.

[PurpleHeaven]

You probably by now think I'm nuts Gerard so let me add to that perception. I am not a fan of BKF at all and don't believe at all, based on what I've seen on the net, that he has a deep understanding of internal arts.

 

Don't worry, you're not alone with that opinion. :-)

[JessOBrien]

MIssed this post, thought I'd chime in.

I've trained with Kumar for a while now and he has taught me some very cool stuff about Chinese martial arts.

As for a deep understanding, I don't see how someone could devote the time and energy he did training in China during the 1970's and 80's and not be good at the art.

The guy put his life into his practice.

And he tested it rigorously.

I've visited a lot of teachers, and all of them had some good things to teach.

Just because I prefer some rather than others I wouldn't presume to say which one is deeper than the other until I got to cross hands with them.

Kumar no longer teaches martial arts very much, so I won't tell you to bother checking him out in person.

If anyone has any questions about his martial arts, I'm happy to relay what I know.

 

Jess O

Edited November 5, 2012 by JessOBrien

[Baguakid]

MIssed this post, thought I'd chime in.

I've trained with Kumar for a while now and he has taught me some very cool stuff about Chinese martial arts.

As for a deep understanding, I don't see how someone could devote the time and energy he did training in China during the 1970's and 80's and not be good at the art.

The guy put his life into his practice.

And he tested it rigorously.

I've visited a lot of teachers, and all of them had some good things to teach.

Just because I prefer some rather than others I wouldn't presume to say which one is deeper than the other until I got to cross hands with them.

Kumar no longer teaches martial arts very much, so I won't tell you to bother checking him out in person.

If anyone has any questions about his martial arts, I'm happy to relay what I know.

 

Jess O

 

With all due respect Jess, people can train their entire lives and still be mediocre at best. At the same time, some can train several years and reach high levels. It depends on the individual. I've never met BKF but from what I've seen of him on youtube, publications, etc, he doesn't "flip my fiddle" so to speak like others who seem to fall all over him.

 

Just my point of view.... and like Aholes, everyone's got one. Take it for what it's worth.

 

Peace!

[JessOBrien]

Hi Ba Gua Kid,

 

Yeah man I hear you, we all have our preferences.

But trying to judge martial arts from a video is an amateur mistake.

Better to judge martial arts by the speed, power and finality of the impact.

Not by forms or videos.

Kumar and other internal martial arts teachers can deliver that and lots of it.

I've never been impressed with a video yet so I don't comment on them.

Different boats/fiddles for different folks I suppose.

 

JEss O

Edited November 5, 2012 by JessOBrien

[Dainin]

Question withdrawn.

Edited November 5, 2012 by Dainin

[JessOBrien]

Dainin, I believe he posted some of his teacher on the thread earlier if I recall correctly.

 

Jess O

[Baguakid]

Hi Ba Gua Kid,

 

Yeah man I hear you, we all have our preferences.

But trying to judge martial arts from a video is an amateur mistake.

Better to judge martial arts by the speed, power and finality of the impact.

Not by forms or videos.

Kumar and other internal martial arts teachers can deliver that and lots of it.

I've never been impressed with a video yet so I don't comment on them.

Different boats/fiddles for different folks I suppose.

 

JEss O

 

Well if you've never been impressed with a video on youtube, including BKF then I don't feel so bad and it gives me hope.

Anyway, no worries Jess.. Unfortunately I'm not in an area that has an abundant plethora of internal arts. Where are you located?

[Baguakid]

Question withdrawn.

 

Dainin, are you actually in Boca Raton? Do you study Bagua down there?

 

tks

[Dainin]

Dainin, are you actually in Boca Raton? Do you study Bagua down there?

 

tks

 

Hi baguakid, yes, I've lived here since 1986. I study qigong and taiji. I've had a little taste of bagua with a guy visiting from out of town, and would like to learn the fundamentals. Do you know of any bagua teachers in Broward or Palm Beach counties that you would recommend? Thank you.

[Isimsiz Biri]

I would like to contribute the discussion with the following link:

 

http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/bagua/machuanxu.html

 

It was the best article about baguazhang I have ever read. There are other interesting articles too. (http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/bagua.html)

[JessOBrien]

BKF's forms are not and have never been pretty.

Nobody looks worse on video than him.

But in person the experience is quite different.

I'm here in Oakland, I studied with Kumar during his years in Fairfax, CA and we host him here in the Bay Area usually twice per year.

He's pretty much retired from martial arts at this point.

Recep- good call Jarek's website offers some very good info, well worth reading all his articles.