There no awakening for Kundalini

[~jK~]

These kinds of topics are contrary to the physicalist mindset that is dominating our culture. So it's not easy to find someone genuine to practice with. I've given up on that. I made some attempts, but after not finding what I am looking for, I said screw it. I have a life to live. I can't hit the pause button while I am running around looking for a friend. Besides, I was born alone and I will die alone. I better get used to it. I like and welcome company when it's available, but if the company is not there life moves on.

 

Sorry dear boy but your credibility has sunken to an all time low of minus 5 Zillion

[Aetherous]

Obligatory thread derailing...

 

Besides, I was born alone and I will die alone

 

I once said this to my mom and she corrected me, saying that no one is actually born alone. They are with their mom and their dad (if he hasn't passed out in shock).

 

...As you were...

[goldisheavy]

Sorry dear boy but your credibility has sunken to an all time low of minus 5 Zillion

 

I take note of the variance in your opinion of me. Thanks for the update.

[goldisheavy]

Obligatory thread derailing...

 

 

 

I once said this to my mom and she corrected me, saying that no one is actually born alone. They are with their mom and their dad (if he hasn't passed out in shock).

 

...As you were...

 

Yes, something to think about. I wasn't explicitly aware of my mom or dad when I was born. That doesn't mean they were absent. Alright, so I was born in a small company but I will die alone. Or am going to die in a small company as well?

 

I appreciate your correction Scotty.

Edited September 15, 2010 by goldisheavy

[Apech]

[goldisheavy]

I think it is perfectly valid also to say that the energy which is kundalini is (or must be) ever present and that the idea that you have to awaken it (i.e. activate it from a dormant state) is to a degree erroneous. But that does not account for the experience that people have. If people think and feel … and experience at the expense of some suffering … that they have awoken something in themselves … then for all intents and purposes they have because both their objective and subjective life is different after from before. Whether this is 'necessary' in any sense is a different question I think.

 

I agree with you completely on this. If someone feels they have awoken something in themselves, I don't think it's necessarily wrong to feel that way. For example, I might sometimes think that I have awoken a spirit of enlightenment in myself (as it is described in Thurman's translation of Vimalakirti Nirdesa Sutra), but at the same time, if I am pressed, I would have to admit that full expansion of wisdom is always latent, and that some degree of wisdom is always operative and not merely latent. The sudden vs gradual debate exists in Zen Buddhism too. Some think that enlightenment is sudden. Others think it is gradual. I think it's a good idea to have this kind of debate because it will accommodate different people.

 

The only thing I am trying to negate is the idea that awakening is exclusively and absolutely the only valid way to introduce the experience of Kundalini.

 

Consider how dramatic is the difference between someone who has been practicing power lifting for 30 years and someone who hasn't. And yet we do not use notion of "muscle awakening" to explain such a dramatic difference.

 

The other point about the identity of spirituality and kundalini is easier to answer I think. A kundalini awakened person is not necessarily a spiritually mature person … for instance wisdom, love, true compassion and so on are , I think, hallmarks of a truly developed person (if I can use that phrase) and not 'oh I've got a big light in my head and its cosmic!' (if you see what I mean). Some paths as you have already said do not seem to mention the k experience at all and it is an interesting question to ask why that is.

 

I agree with you. As to why that is, my guess is that Kundalini type experiences are more interesting to people who want to experience something closer to the supernormal. Of all the supernormal experiences I think the Kundalini experience is a more accessible one. I don't know if that's exactly why, but currently I tend to think like that. I also don't think Kundalini is either necessary or the only way to experience magic or supernormal, but it's one of the methods. I think the Kundalini experience gives one a sense that there is more to our being than just the physical body. And if you look at it from the Chinese point of view where Qi follow Yi, it give us a sense that intent is more magical and more capable than just moving the body around and thinking.

Edited September 15, 2010 by goldisheavy

[宁]

GIH,

 

your reasoning is correct, if we take into account what we generally know about this phenomena at thist time.

 

Yet, you being the scientific objective mind I'm sure you wouldn't object if I point out a major glitch:

you're thinking binary logic, meanwhile we live in a multi-verse.

trinary logic will provide you with another set of conclusions.

there is also quadrary logic...

quintary logic...

How am I so sure? Everything that is conceivable to the human mind is bound to already exist in some form in this multiverse.

 

Yours

 

L1

[~jK~]

GIH,

 

your reasoning is correct, if we take into account what we generally know about this phenomena at thist time.

 

Yet, you being the scientific objective mind I'm sure you wouldn't object if I point out a major glitch:

you're thinking binary logic, meanwhile we live in a multi-verse.

trinary logic will provide you with another set of conclusions.

there is also quadrary logic...

quintary logic...

How am I so sure? Everything that is conceivable to the human mind is bound to already exist in some form in this multiverse.

 

Yours

 

L1

L1,

GIH is any but scientific in its approach Scientists are objective - GIH is belief oriented - same as a preacher or politician spreading the lies of War...

http://www.objectivityinscience.org/

[goldisheavy]

GIH,

 

your reasoning is correct, if we take into account what we generally know about this phenomena at thist time.

 

Yet, you being the scientific objective mind

 

Considering that while I like science I am also critical of it from time to time (especially at the philosophical level), and considering that my views put me closer to a subjectivist than to an objectivist, I think you are wrong in your label. I do like to praise reason and rationality, but that doesn't mean I think objectivism is rational.

 

I'm sure you wouldn't object if I point out a major glitch:

you're thinking binary logic, meanwhile we live in a multi-verse.

 

First of all, I do not observe myself living in a multiverse. Multiverse was one of the competing interpretations of quantum mechanics. I do not take it as fact, nor do I think it's wrong. I basically don't know if we live in the multiverse or not, and I am not sure I even care, because the implications multiversalism and universalism seem to be roughly the same.

 

Second, if you agree that black or white polarized dualistic logic is wrong, that only supports my argument. It only lends more weight to the idea that perhaps for a lot of people Kundalini is not an awakening. I made the title of the thread "There is no awakening for Kundalini" just to be a little provocative and to indicate my own preference. And I forgot to type "is" too. However, if you read what I am saying, you can see that I only present my view as one option or one alternative.

 

Many people are happy with their Kundalini awakening. That's good. They can continue to feel happy. But for people who want to experience something and for whom the idea of "awakening" is a block, I present the idea of gradual development as opposed to awakening.

 

How am I so sure? Everything that is conceivable to the human mind is bound to already exist in some form in this multiverse.

 

Yours

 

L1

 

Yes, I call this all-potential. I don't actually give physical space to potential out there in the multiverse. I express the same idea in subjective terms: all experiences are possible. So it's possible to have an awakening of Kundalini. But it's also possible to have Kundalini without any distinct awakening. At the very least, let's recognize that different traditions take different attitudes toward the subtle energies. To the best of my understanding, the Chinese systems do not talk of Qi awakening. I may be wrong, and if I am I want to be educated by someone who can site something to the contrary. Regardless of what the Chinese systems do, my idea is still a good one, in my opinion. I only use the Chinese attitude toward Qi as one example, I don't use it as the basis of my argument. My argument rests on the idea that all experiences are possible.

Edited September 15, 2010 by goldisheavy

[Xianren]

The awakening of Kundalini, cant happen in the Dao school, besides they form that kind of meridian, or the circulation which goes with it. So of course their can be no awakening of Kundalini, in the Daoist school of Cultivation. What most Daoists Cultivation ways form are a Small and a Great Heavenly Circle, like for example the He Che Heavenly Circle.

 

 

 

Kind Regards,

Xian

[goldisheavy]

L1,

GIH is any but scientific in its approach Scientists are objective - GIH is belief oriented

 

This is correct.

 

- same as a preacher or politician spreading the lies of War...

http://www.objectivityinscience.org/

 

First of all Hitler and Stalin were objectivists. Secondly, while there certainly are subjectivists who preach War, that doesn't mean I do. Lies and war are not a natural and essential outcome of subjectivism. Subjectivists are the people who haggle. Objectivists make demands because to them there is only one truth and there is no haggling about anything.

[Apech]

We all have beliefs whether we call them that or not. The thing to do is to hold them up to the light of day and allow them to be challenged. If they stand up logically then keep them if they don't discard them.

 

As far as I can see GiH does this but often in a way that challenges others. This is one of the good things about TTBs contrary to opinion of a poster above who was moaning about what he read on here. If you want conformity I suggest go to another site. Not addressing anyone in particular BTW (except myself).

[Birch]

The awakening of Kundalini, cant happen in the Dao school, besides they form that kind of meridian, or the circulation which goes with it. So of course their can be no awakening of Kundalini, in the Daoist school of Cultivation. What most Daoists Cultivation ways form are a Small and a Great Heavenly Circle, like for example the He Che Heavenly Circle.

 

 

 

Kind Regards,

Xian

 

I think this post is really interesting.

 

Which is not to say that the others are not (but which one may be lead to imagine because I singled this one and omitted to say the rest were).

 

Great posts on this thread too

 

I won't start on where I figure "rationality" and "spirituality" seem to begin and end IMO.

[Seth Ananda]

 

OK, consider this. I've only ever heard of talk of awakening in Hindu schools of thought. So "Kundalini awakening" is a catchphrase. At the same time, I've never heard of Daoists talk of Qi awakening. Never. To the best of my knowledge Qi is always explained to already exist in each person. Sometimes people would even say things like "Well, if Qi flow didn't exist in you, you'd already be dead."

 

Hi Gold, I have never heard Hindu's talk of prana awakening either, which seems to me more like the Taoist Ideas of Chi.

Kundalini is 'something else' [ominous music]

I at least 'like' to think of it that way...

I do think I have Heard references to Kundalini Awakening in Taoism, to do with opening the thrusting channels which then 'releases' a massive energy, but I may be misunderstanding... Some of the people here have a vast level of Taoist knowledge compared to me, Maybe they can Illuminate this further?

 

I do still think there are positive points to your Idea, and the shaking medicine [thanks Hundun ] may be a good example in a way as they just shake and everything starts to happen and in that tradition who can say what is that energy and what is not...?

Still, personally it makes me uncomfortable saying that, just because to me, and most traditional systems, it is a very Specific thing not to be confused with other energy's.

And That New age

"I felt a sensation in my spine so it 'Must' be that my Kundalini is awake so please Love Me" thing I mentioned really Bugs me.

Seth!

P.S. and I like your Rational side

[forestofemptiness]

For all the talk of kundalini, I've really only ran into one person who talked about it negatively: G.I. Gurdjieff. He said that kundalini is the power of imagination, and that by arousing it one could prematurely "freeze" one's spiritual development. I'm not saying I agree or disagree.

 

I don't agree with GIH on wisdom vs. energy. Wisdom practices have a direct impact on your energy state. I was at a retreat once where I was concentrating intensely on a sort of koan to the point where my body was hot and sweating. Then something happened in my legs, and I haven't had leg pain while sitting since. Before, I used to always get leg pain. In fact, my legs have been remarkably better since. So something happened. You might say in Taoist terms that I opened meridians in my legs, yet I was practicing Buddhist practice. I also had spontaneous movements and yoga postures at that retreat while practicing insight meditation.

[goldisheavy]

Hi Gold, I have never heard Hindu's talk of prana awakening either, which seems to me more like the Taoist Ideas of Chi.

Kundalini is 'something else' [ominous music]

 

I agree. They don't talk of prana awakening. So if Kundalini is something else, what is it?

 

I at least 'like' to think of it that way...

I do think I have Heard references to Kundalini Awakening in Taoism, to do with opening the thrusting channels which then 'releases' a massive energy, but I may be misunderstanding... Some of the people here have a vast level of Taoist knowledge compared to me, Maybe they can Illuminate this further?

 

I am also interested. I've never heard of thrusting channels.

 

I do still think there are positive points to your Idea, and the shaking medicine [thanks Hundun ] may be a good example in a way as they just shake and everything starts to happen and in that tradition who can say what is that energy and what is not...?

Still, personally it makes me uncomfortable saying that, just because to me, and most traditional systems, it is a very Specific thing not to be confused with other energy's.

 

Well, I'd like to get unconfused if it's possible. But I do wonder on what basis would such subtle energies be differentiated when they are perceived in the same way as hot sensations, cold sensations, light, electric prickling or tingling and so on. So if the perceptions are the same, what is different then? If the perceptions are not the same, I'd like to know how exactly.

 

And That New age

"I felt a sensation in my spine so it 'Must' be that my Kundalini is awake so please Love Me" thing I mentioned really Bugs me.

Seth!

 

I agree with that. We should be decent to all people regardless of the status of their Kundalini.

 

P.S. and I like your Rational side

 

Thank you!

[Vajrahridaya]

I agree. They don't talk of prana awakening. So if Kundalini is something else, what is it?

 

 

I feel that it's the "light" of awareness illuminating unconscious potential. For instance when a saint with deep awareness, a person who has illumined their own unconscious and made it conscious comes in contact with another person, they are able to connect to another on that level they have illumined within them self. If they have the ability to control the wattage of that powerful awareness, they can awaken through this light of awareness the hidden, unconscious potential in another person, thus "shaktipat." Basically, they illumine your closet and through penetrative awareness they take you there as well as your awareness follows that space made by them within you, starting your process and so all those hidden karmas start coming to the surface. Of course to be receptive to this as well takes some cracks in your own karmic shell that are congruently connected with the particular saint you come into contact with, otherwise... you won't experience the saint's saintliness or your own in their presence. You might even experience all your negativity hit you in the face and you might even blame the saint for it.

 

When a person does intense practice, they bring awareness into their own unconscious and thus illumine their own hidden potential, starting the process of seemingly automatic unraveling. It's the same way that the Buddhists say the big bang happens. The dormant potential left over from the last universe after the big crunch of it, gets churned by the awareness of the first born beings, known in many religions as the "gods" or "god" who have the merit to be first born and have first sentience (self awareness) in this universe, and... bang! The universe starts it's churning from subtle energy dimensions into physical energy dimensions. It's of course a lot more complicated than this, with all the different ways awareness can illumine the unconscious and how each individual has a unique closet of hidden potential, but I think that's the nutshell.

 

My ideas about Kundalini being an independently intelligent entity does not exist anymore after coming to understand the Buddhas teaching. So, I don't see kundalini in the same light as I used to. I think there is a much subtler process going on that one can become aware of rather than using the excuse, "it's her will", or "it's gods will."

 

 

I agree with that. We should be decent to all people regardless of the status of their Kundalini.

 

 

 

Thank you!

Indeed!

Edited September 15, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[gendao]

At the same time, I've never heard of Daoists talk of Qi awakening. Never. To the best of my knowledge Qi is always explained to already exist in each person. Sometimes people would even say things like "Well, if Qi flow didn't exist in you, you'd already be dead."

To state the obvious, people have varying amounts of qi and blockages though. This results in an incredible amount of differences between peoples' conditions.

I am also interested. I've never heard of thrusting channels.

Lol, that is because you are a Muslim rationalist...not a Taoist.

 

The chong mai, or thrusting vessel, is one of the 8 extraordinary vessels. It is well-known in both TCM & neidan. Opening the chong mai is a very powerful awakening because it will then channel yuan qi from the lower dantian to the upper dantian. The yuan qi being a primal energy probably the same as the kundalini force.

The yuan chi is then able to move above the heart & into the head. It then flows up & down between the lower Tan tien & the upper Tan tien. The upper Tan tien is known as the Ni-wan or 'mud pill' and is located in the centre of the brain. The Ni-wan is composed of the Hypothalamus, pineal & pituitary glands.

 

This stage is referred to as 'the opening of the thrusting vessel' or the zhong-gong direct flowing method 4. This central path of the thrusting vessel flows from the perineum, through the centre of the body or the spinal canal, up to the crown of the head. It may correspond to the Shushumna meridian of Kriya yoga, an Indian system with many parallels to Taoist alchemy.

[Sunya]

Lol, that is because you are a Muslim rationalist...not a Taoist.

 

Let's not resort to insults please. Gold is definitely not a Muslim nor is he a rationalist. He's obviously an empiricist and has made his feelings about Islam quite clear in the past

 

The chong mai, or thrusting vessel, is one of the 8 extraordinary vessels. It is well-known in both TCM & neidan. Opening the chong mai is a very powerful awakening because it will then channel yuan qi from the lower dantian to the upper dantian. The yuan qi being a primal energy probably the same as the kundalini force.

 

Just curious if you have actually experienced this?

Edited September 15, 2010 by Sunya

[gendao]

Let's not resort to insults please. Gold is definitely not a Muslim nor is he a rationalist. He's obviously an empiricist and has made his feelings about Islam quite clear in the past

Wow, I didn't realize those were insults?

 

But I think calling them insults...is an actual insult.

Just curious if you have actually experienced this?

Sadly, nope! I haven't even opened my microcosmic orbit yet!

[rain]

I feel that it's the "light" of awareness illuminating unconscious potential. For instance when a saint with deep awareness, a person who has illumined their own unconscious and made it conscious comes in contact with another person, they are able to connect to another on that level they have illumined within them self. If they have the ability to control the wattage of that powerful awareness, they can awaken through this light of awareness the hidden, unconscious potential in another person, thus "shaktipat." Basically, they illumine your closet and through penetrative awareness they take you there as well as your awareness follows that space made by them within you, starting your process and so all those hidden karmas start coming to the surface. Of course to be receptive to this as well takes some cracks in your own karmic shell that are congruently connected with the particular saint you come into contact with, otherwise... you won't experience the saint's saintliness or your own in their presence. You might even experience all your negativity hit you in the face and you might even blame the saint for it.

 

When a person does intense practice, they bring awareness into their own unconscious and thus illumine their own hidden potential, starting the process of seemingly automatic unraveling. It's the same way that the Buddhists say the big bang happens. The dormant potential left over from the last universe after the big crunch of it, gets churned by the awareness of the first born beings, known in many religions as the "gods" or "god" who have the merit to be first born and have first sentience (self awareness) in this universe, and... bang! The universe starts it's churning from subtle energy dimensions into physical energy dimensions. It's of course a lot more complicated than this, with all the different ways awareness can illumine the unconscious and how each individual has a unique closet of hidden potential, but I think that's the nutshell.

 

My ideas about Kundalini being an independently intelligent entity does not exist anymore after coming to understand the Buddhas teaching. So, I don't see kundalini in the same light as I used to. I think there is a much subtler process going on that one can become aware of rather than using the excuse, "it's her will", or "it's gods will."

 

 

 

Indeed!

 

thanks I really appreciate your reflections

[goldisheavy]

To state the obvious, people have varying amounts of qi and blockages though. This results in an incredible amount of differences between peoples' conditions.Lol, that is because you are a Muslim rationalist...not a Taoist.

 

The chong mai, or thrusting vessel, is one of the 8 extraordinary vessels. It is well-known in both TCM & neidan. Opening the chong mai is a very powerful awakening because it will then channel yuan qi from the lower dantian to the upper dantian. The yuan qi being a primal energy probably the same as the kundalini force.

 

This is pretty interesting and I appreciate your explanation and the link. Do you have a picture of the channel by any chance? If I understand correctly, the Kundalini awakens at the base of the body (roughly under the balls if you're a man), and moves up the spine. This seems very different from what you are describing (from lower to upper dan tian). In any case, it would be interesting to examine the explanation behind this energy, so I'll give your link a read.

[goldisheavy]

I feel that it's the "light" of awareness illuminating unconscious potential.

 

The problem is that anything can be described in these terms. So it makes no sense to talk specifically about Kundalini like this when any seemingly "new" phenomenon is awareness illuminating preciously-unconscious potential. Any.

 

For instance when a saint with deep awareness, a person who has illumined their own unconscious and made it conscious comes in contact with another person, they are able to connect to another on that level they have illumined within them self.

 

If both of these people participate in a consensual reality, this can happen, however, this has nothing to do with Kundalini. Someone who knows nothing whatsoever about Kundalini can achieve this kind of experience with another being.

 

If they have the ability to control the wattage of that powerful awareness

 

"Wattage" is a term that's applicable to a substantial and measurable energy, like electricity, which is believed to be substantial and objective. I wouldn't use "wattage" in the same sentence as awareness. Awareness is entirely transcendent. It's not an object to itself or to anything else. It doesn't get stronger or weaker and nor does it have a quality like "wattage.".

 

My ideas about Kundalini being an independently intelligent entity does not exist anymore after coming to understand the Buddhas teaching. So, I don't see kundalini in the same light as I used to.

 

It doesn't seem like the Buddhist teachings have affected you all that much with regard to Kundalini. No offense. By all means believe what you like (as long as you are non-violent).

Edited September 15, 2010 by goldisheavy

[Creation]

I feel that it's the "light" of awareness illuminating unconscious potential. For instance when a saint with deep awareness, a person who has illumined their own unconscious and made it conscious comes in contact with another person, they are able to connect to another on that level they have illumined within them self. If they have the ability to control the wattage of that powerful awareness, they can awaken through this light of awareness the hidden, unconscious potential in another person, thus "shaktipat." Basically, they illumine your closet and through penetrative awareness they take you there as well as your awareness follows that space made by them within you, starting your process and so all those hidden karmas start coming to the surface. Of course to be receptive to this as well takes some cracks in your own karmic shell that are congruently connected with the particular saint you come into contact with, otherwise... you won't experience the saint's saintliness or your own in their presence. You might even experience all your negativity hit you in the face and you might even blame the saint for it.

All this talk about kundalini has gotten me wondering, why does kundalini hold such a fascination for me? Especially given that I perceive myself to have a fundamentally watery disposition. I had an epiphany a couple days ago that is precisely the illuminating aspect of kundalini that attracts me to it. How interesting that you perceive this to be the very essence of it.

 

Yet it is also what I fear about it. I am not so worried about all the "this person had this horrible experience" stories. I am afraid of things inside myself that kundalini would illuminate. I know that I have very deep and powerful stuff in my unconscious, stuff that will fight like hell against anything that tries to unwind it or release it. Even with the limited light of my own awareness I run into this, how much more intense and painful would it be if the light Shakti was turned upon me!

 

Woe is me, for I am ruined!

Because I am a man of unclean lips,

And I live among a people of unclean lips...

[gendao]

This is pretty interesting and I appreciate your explanation and the link. Do you have a picture of the channel by any chance? If I understand correctly, the Kundalini awakens at the base of the body (roughly under the balls if you're a man), and moves up the spine. This seems very different from what you are describing (from lower to upper dan tian). In any case, it would be interesting to examine the explanation behind this energy, so I'll give your link a read.

The CV 1-GV 20 (Huiyin-Baihui) path is connected through the Thrusting Vessel (Chong Mai) and provides a critical and essential balance of Qi circulation in the body, encompassing the major pathway of movement of Qi energy between the Upper and Lower Dan Tians through the spinal cord.

I've seen a few variations of its pathway...but my basic understanding is that it's the core central channel that basically runs through the spine from huiyin to baihui - like the sushumna.

 

And whereas the 12 meridians channel more postnatal qi...the 8 extraordinary vessels channel more prenatal qi. Which is what makes opening them so powerful (and sought-after by Taoist health buffs, martial artists & alchemists).

These pre-natal meridian systems are very effective for cross meridian (regular meridian) functions.

 

They are responsible for the development of the fetus during the first stage of our development cycle. During this time, the organs are not fully formed, thus the organ functions are mixed together and performed by these pre-natal functions.

(At least all according to my current basic understanding thus far...lol.) Edited September 15, 2010 by vortex