Thoughts on vegetarianism?

[Brian]

...

[Guest paul walter]

 

 

I don't think the human condition is pathetic at all. I am rather fond of my condition--frankly. And I am going to tell you right nowthat eating meat or nothad nothing to do with the speed of my progress. Nothing.

-active frontal lobe. End of line.

 

 

Well almost everything we ingest affects us-often 'seriously'. The diet the world is 'choosing' is a very behaviour altering one. Do you know of the work of Dr. Yuri Nikolayev of the Moscow Institute of Psychiatry dealing with curing "incurable" schizophrenics with water fasts and no-meat diets? Also the book 'Depression Free for Life' has a food/supplement based stabilising programme that is worth a real look-at.

Edited August 23, 2010 by paul walter

[Brian]

...

[passenger1980]

Again, let me point out that you are factually incorrect about a 100% carnivorous diet. Want an example? Check out the Inuit...

 

Other than that, I pretty much agree with all you are saying except that you are projecting and rationalizing without seeming to be aware of it. You project your emotions regarding compassion onto the butcher, you project your emotions regarding apple trees onto everyone else and you project your opinion about the comparative damage your choice of diet inflicts on an uncaring universe onto a framework of morality and equating that with spirituality. You rationalize the diet that makes you feel good about yourself by saying that it is an indisputable moral high ground but when challenged as to the criteria for that determination, you retreat to a position of, basically, "I don't like to think about it too much."

 

This thread started with you referencing a blog entry on how the Lord Krishna describes food as falling into one of three categories -- sattvic, sajasic or tamasic -- and the blog then says "as you can see" & states, basically that only a vegetarian diet is sattvic without any justification. How is meat incapable of being juicy, oily, stable and pleasing to the hear, for instance? Or why would it be reasonable to say that a vegetarian (but not vegan) diet would automatically be inured from the qualities of bitterness, pungency or "leftoverness"? (I think I made up that word! ) The blog posting itself is superficial and self-congratulatory and, despite the assurance at the end that this information comes straight from Lord Siva, offers no meat (if you'll pardon the pun...) You asked "how'd y'all feel about this topic?" and, for 70-something posts, vegetarians have said "oh, yes! that's all very true" while non-vegetarians have said "not so sure I buy it".

 

When we get to the end (assuming we are near the end here?), it turns out that your own position is that you are vegetarian (but not vegan) because you like the idea and it is consistent with your emotions and personal experiences. Man, that's great! I'm fine with it! I'm fine with you, too! In fact, I would say that it is better than great because it is truly important to live in harmony with yourself. Just don't try to slap a "spirituality" label on it and expect it to stick.

 

Hmm, not really sure what you meant about that blog entry, perhaps you are confusing me with someone else, i didn't start this thread nor i posted any link, in fact i just posted my first reply to this some hours ago.

 

Anyway, i can't deny what you said, the butcher certainly can feel different from what i described and it is an assumption from my part as many others. But to me (vegetarianism) it's still a very important part of the spiritual life. Perfection of morality is a center piece in all spiritual paths, even if we can agree that good and evil is a construction of the mind after all.

 

And you are right, to me being a vegetarian is a superior moral decision. It's not that i'm more holy than you are. The act is what is important, and if it's a compassionate act with a compasionate intention behind, that's it. Now, being a vegetarian won't make you holy or more wise, or anything like that, it's just a medium, a cause, to create certain conditions in your existence. It's also important as you said, to be clear of guilt, if ones truly hates the killing of animals, then certainly can't endorse that and keep eating meat like there's no tomorrow, there would be a clear conflict there.

 

What i assume (as you said) is that most people blocks compassion because of their appetite. I certainly believe that, even if you think otherwise. It's an assumption of course, and i'm very sure there are people in this world that are perfectly happy with that decision too.

[Brian]

...

[passenger1980]

Also, very interesting about the Inuit. Not sure if you could still be as healthy (would like to see how long they live, etc) but you certainly can survive on meat alone, i was wrong indeed.

 

Either way, it doesn't surprise me, i am a vegetarian, but i think humans are omnivores, there's no denying in that, the human body is prepared to adapt and that's how we can survive in almost any region. Now, we do have a choice to eat much less meat, or none at all like me (and from your point, the same can be said about plants).

 

However if you put evolution into perspective, the human race could change in the future if we evolve into a vegetarian species (granted, i don't see how that will happen in the next years haha).

[Ramon25]

Also, very interesting about the Inuit. Not sure if you could still be as healthy (would like to see how long they live, etc) but you certainly can survive on meat alone, i was wrong indeed.

 

Either way, it doesn't surprise me, i am a vegetarian, but i think humans are omnivores, there's no denying in that, the human body is prepared to adapt and that's how we can survive in almost any region. Now, we do have a choice to eat much less meat, or none at all like me (and from your point, the same can be said about plants).

 

However if you put evolution into perspective, the human race could change in the future if we evolve into a vegetarian species (granted, i don't see how that will happen in the next years haha).

 

grow a bigger stomach and lose the size of our brain? seems like what most people are trying to do anyways

[Guest paul walter]

Gotcha!

 

No, wait! I'm confused. Are you saying that spirituality is determined by metabolic type or that appropriate diet is determined by metabolic type? Or that metabolic type is determined by chosen diet? Or that diet is determined by spirituality, which then determines metabolic type, which determines appropriate diet??? <scratches head>

 

I went to the metabolictyping website, hoping that would help me to understand, but they want $39.95 before they'll allow me to fill out their online questionnaire to determine which of their nine customized diet plans and which combination of their 32 essential supplements (available only through them) are critical for my optimum health. They say it is necessary for me to pay $39.95 for the questionnaire because that ensures I'm getting "the real questionnaire" but I think I'll pass on it today. Maybe next week.

 

Well this post was a waste of space wasn't it? Go to another metabolic typing site and find a questionnaire and read about it-they're out there somewhere.

[Sahaj Nath]

Hundun- Good imput, I hadn't even considered the case of Kundalini. However I do have to question whether what they were experiencing was a "good' thing or not. For example...the "Shakes". They saw the shaking as bad, however in Kunlun the shaking is supposed to be the PURIFYING of the nerves and body...and isn't that what kundalini is supposed to do? Also when people the people said they ate meat they felt it going "down". It IS supposed to go down, but it's supposed to go down the front channel. In Kunlun the energy is raised, the "blissful heat" is raised up, but then you let it flow down the front, not eat something to put the energy back in your lower chakras. Honestly it just seems these people didn't know how to let the kundalini do wat it's supposed to do. Perhaps one NEEDS to get out of society for awhile if they choose to awaken kundalini. I wont deny that you're nerves will probably get sum heat (pardon the pun) however i'd like to bring up the subject of detox.

 

In physical detox usually one deals with sum very uncomfortable feelings before the inherent "cause" is removed. For example many people who do long term fasts, if they've had any broken bones, will experience pain in that area for awhile. People will suffer headaches from taxins being released in the bloodstream (or so the theory goes). In emotional detox you may re-experience some painful emotions from the past, perhaps traumatic stuff will resurface.

 

In any case eating meat which seemly just forces the energy back down into the lower chakras, doesn't seem to be the answer, especially if you become dependant on eating meat to keep the energy down. It seems to me like these people just don't know how to let kundalini do it's thing. Perhaps lerning kunlun would help, lol.

 

Oh and for the record, i'm kinda pro-kunlun now. After reading the book and a few more experiences i think i better understand it.

 

these are people who shake all the time as a part of their regular practice of kriya yoga. they honor the natural movements and manifestations that arise as a result of their awakened energy, and they allow madness to do its thing as well. what you are talking about is not the point they're addressing. even in Kunlun LOTS of people are encouraged to eat meat (as well as junk food, although i don't know what that's about) in order to lower the intensity because the energy can leave them so spun that they might find themselves somewhat unable to function. the shaking that happens during the practice is NOT the kind of shaking these people are talking about. they are talking about the trembling, like if you had drank 10 cups of coffee on an empty stomach. if you found that you could not sleep for 5 straight days, my guess is that you wouldn't just shrug off your misery and hallucinations as either cleansing OR a simple matter to running the correct channels.

 

and just like like with their use of the word "shaking," you're misinterpreting their use of the word "down" with regard to the energy. they're talking about the lessening of the intensity, NOT the ren mai channel down the front of the body. and it might help to know that guru-g is an authentic satguru. she has brought 7 of her students to realization so far, which is a pretty damn good track record if you ask me. but i offer that just to say that she's no chump. she's not an academic or an intellectual, but she's a real master, of the crazy wisdom variety. she knows the vedic texts, she knows the lived experience, and her journey was far from an easy one. and i'm not saying to just take everything she and her students say as gospel, but i AM saying that you should maybe give them a little more credit.

 

Except this thread and the whole vego thing that people often try to discuss here isn't about "energetic development"--that's one of the big probs with TTB- it seems to mostly come down to "he who has the most phenomena wins"...

 

i really don't feel like getting into a fight about this or anything, but yes, it is about "energetic development," for me and for many others. realization requires stillness, but that only happens after the kundalini has completely run its course. so that means there's a whole lot of phenomena that have to go on before stillness takes root. some folks have some energy going on that is manageable through other means, and other folks have so much going on to the point where even dense proteins don't help, and they consider suicide because they find it so unbearable. i think it's a mistake to assume, as you do in your response to Ramon25, that everyone with K rising is going through what you did, at the same level of intensity.

 

"energetic development" has a whole lot to do with spirituality. it's pretty much the basis for ALL of the esoteric traditions, and in my case it made the difference between studied beliefs and experiential understanding. not to mention the fact that the energy acts as a sort of "karma accelerator."

 

i'm biased in this particular issue because morality holds no particular value for me when it comes to categorical imperatives of this nature. but the question was about its relation to spirituality, and energetic development is very much germane to that topic.

Edited August 23, 2010 by Hundun

[metal dog]

As far as butchering meat...

 

I, out of curiosity, took an extra part time job for six months a couple years back at the local slaughtery.

 

It was during the fall season where a lot of sheep are being slaughtered. They processed about 4000 sheep a day and about 250 cows a day. These are small numbers for a company that supplies the local rural areas. I was able to work just about every position on the line, except the one where they electrically shock to kill the cow on the head and where they herd a bunch of sheep into a room and slowly deprive them of oxygen while increasing the CO2. The sheep fall asleep and die. I really wanted to witness the kill part of the operation, but was told that it was off limits because it takes a "special" kind of person to do that work and it is not on display to the public or anyone that doesn't need to see it.

 

Knowing that animal products are food and that we all are indebted to this practice for our existence I have no problem with the process.

 

It's what's for dinner.

[Guest paul walter]

 

i really don't feel like getting into a fight about this or anything, but yes, it is about "energetic development," for me and for many others. realization requires stillness, but that only happens after the kundalini has completely run its course. so that means there's a whole lot of phenomena that have to go on before stillness takes root. some folks have some energy going on that is manageable through other means, and other folks have so much going on to the point where even dense proteins don't help, and they consider suicide because they find it so unbearable. i think it's a mistake to assume, as you do in your response to Ramon25, that everyone with K rising is going through what you did, at the same level of intensity.

 

"energetic development" has a whole lot to do with spirituality. it's pretty much the basis for ALL of the esoteric traditions, and in my case it made the difference between studied beliefs and experiential understanding. not to mention the fact that the energy acts as a sort of "karma accelerator."

 

 

 

Well i have no idea if what happened to me was kundalini rising, I suspect it was but it was so pure and vibrant (after trying to settle my body/mind every moment of every day for over 2 years) that maybe that's what it's like when you've done the pre-work. My whole goal was to still every fibre of my being and see if the TTC was for real -it was . I had no understanding of 'practices' or knowledge of any kind about any possibilities so I realise I was at a real advantage cause I just had a need and not a desire as such.

 

To me the idea of getting kundalini running ASAP which most seem to want seems ludicrous (it's not like that in the traditions)--like putting 10,000 volts through a 100 volt machine. I know it's all about energy but there is energy and there's energy--I think the human organism is overburdened enough with stresses of all kinds for it to be worried by such stuff. Also the desire for more energy instaed of utilising even the energy we expend on nervousness etc etc is an important thing to realise in 'practices', not simply look to the big bang that's gonna blow our minds. I released an enourmous amount of energy which changes your body and utilises things like a vegan diet more efficiently (as long as you don't waste that energy on useless endeavours again, like worry etc). Paul

Edited August 23, 2010 by paul walter

[de_paradise]

I feel non-vegetarians are more primitive. That doesnt make them wrong, just ignorant and primitive in this aspect. Both my spiritual teachers eat meat, and both highly attained. But my values are based on my own evaluation, not simply the evaluations of my teachers. The way forward for an evolved human society is vegetarian. Its pretty obvious. Have you checked the seas lately? Most of the fish are gone. Have you checked livestock farming lately, like the Tyson monopolists? Its vulgar and dowright horrific. So you need to do your own evaluating. What can you accept to be blind to, what can you ouright reject.

Edited August 23, 2010 by de_paradise

[passenger1980]

As far as butchering meat...

 

I, out of curiosity, took an extra part time job for six months a couple years back at the local slaughtery.

 

It was during the fall season where a lot of sheep are being slaughtered. They processed about 4000 sheep a day and about 250 cows a day. These are small numbers for a company that supplies the local rural areas. I was able to work just about every position on the line, except the one where they electrically shock to kill the cow on the head and where they herd a bunch of sheep into a room and slowly deprive them of oxygen while increasing the CO2. The sheep fall asleep and die. I really wanted to witness the kill part of the operation, but was told that it was off limits because it takes a "special" kind of person to do that work and it is not on display to the public or anyone that doesn't need to see it.

 

Knowing that animal products are food and that we all are indebted to this practice for our existence I have no problem with the process.

 

It's what's for dinner.

 

This is what i'm talking about, people who can't see anything wrong with that picture amazes me. Now i don't have many problems with organic farming, i concede it's a much better way to do this, i may be a vegetarian but i'm not a cynic. However the person who approves this factory that kills 4000 sheeps a day, with gas chambers and proceed to cut them into pieces and think it's perfectly normal and natural (like if this was nazi germany) can't be serious. And the "that's what is for dinner" justification is laughable at best, i'm sorry if i offend you. That's not in my dinner plate.

 

Again, what if these were human beings? People compare animals to plants, with this pathetic argument that plants feel also (as if that changes anything for me) but to be honest the most fair comparison would be animals to humans (humans are animals actually remember?). What's the big difference between nazi germany and these modern day factory line killing machines?

 

Maybe we are not allowed to see that part of the killing process, because it proves my theory like i stated before. Most people can't and don't want to handle that and are suppressing their own compassion for the sake of their appetite. That's all there is to it. Like i said, i don't think they have any problem showing the harvesting of apples or potatoes...and i have no problem doing that or letting others do that either.

[Brian]

...

[SFJane]

I went to the metabolic typing website, hoping that would help me to understand, but they want $39.95 before they'll allow me to fill out their online questionnaire to determine which of their nine customized diet plans and which combination of their 32 essential supplements (available only through them) are critical for my optimum health. They say it is necessary for me to pay $39.95 for the questionnaire because that ensures I'm getting "the real questionnaire" but I think I'll pass on it today. Maybe next week.

It's scamola city. Healthexcel--the company behind met typing--is trying to make cash. That's it. Starting with their test--for $39.95. Why couldn't they just make the test a pop-up window like other companies do for inventories tests of moods and thoughts? You take the pop-up test--get your results--then? The test is the first way to get your money. Out of simple curiosity. If you got the information on your type for free from their site--well--you could move on to other sites for your diet and supplement info and food purchasing advice. No--the test is there as the first-line access to your wallet. Then you will get some completely unproven pseudo-scientific explanation on your what your typing means and suggestions to buy more stuff. The insult to your intelligence starts immediately on that site.

 

"Discover the perfect diet!"

 

"The truth is, there is no one diet for everyone!"

 

Wait--what? What kind of self-contradicting bs is that? Is that like when Big Pharma tries to sell you Zoloft and says that the drug addresses a specific chemical imbalance--then they admit in the same commercial--that they don't understand--what depression really is or how exactly the chemical imbalance works--so how could they make a med designed to remedy it?

 

So what is this site about?

 

Healthexcel bogus?

 

The healthexcel program is a money-taking scam--says one customer

 

Metabolic typing is a scam

 

The fallacy of the metabolic questionaire.

 

Metabolic typing--hooey, humbug and nonscience

 

Just ask Paul Walter why is he is trying to get you to spend your money, in this economy, on a metabolic typing scam. Could it be that Paul doesn't know? Or could it be that Paul--like a lot of Americans--easily falls for pseudoscience in the quest to be nutritionally and spiritually correct?

 

Has the metabolic typing program been scientifically tested?

 

You saw the intro site

 

All they are selling is that test. All the other information--cooking advice--food shopping guidelines--you can get from a double-dozen other web sites. Their first-line major product is simply the test. Everything they offer after that is fluff you don't need.

 

Down with pseudoscience and nutrition scares! Down with money sponge websites I say.

So say we all!

Edited August 23, 2010 by SFJane

[Ryan T.]

This is what i'm talking about, people who can't see anything wrong with that picture amazes me. Now i don't have many problems with organic farming, i concede it's a much better way to do this, i may be a vegetarian but i'm not a cynic. However the person who approves this factory that kills 4000 sheeps a day, with gas chambers and proceed to cut them into pieces and think it's perfectly normal and natural (like if this was nazi germany) can't be serious. And the "that's what is for dinner" justification is laughable at best, i'm sorry if i offend you. That's not in my dinner plate.

 

Again, what if these were human beings? People compare animals to plants, with this pathetic argument that plants feel also (as if that changes anything for me) but to be honest the most fair comparison would be animals to humans (humans are animals actually remember?). What's the big difference between nazi germany and these modern day factory line killing machines?

 

Maybe we are not allowed to see that part of the killing process, because it proves my theory like i stated before. Most people can't and don't want to handle that and are suppressing their own compassion for the sake of their appetite. That's all there is to it. Like i said, i don't think they have any problem showing the harvesting of apples or potatoes...and i have no problem doing that or letting others do that either.

You may want to believe that comparing animals to plants is pathetic but only because you don't want to accept that you are also taking a life. I personally know and accept that every time I eat anything. Meat, plant/vegetable, fruit or grain. All of these are alive or have been or will be. Just because people either are unable to see these as life forms or unwilling to accept them as such just speaks to the myopic nature of people and how little of the whole picture we get to be aware of at any given time. All life is sacred. Too bad for you if you need to lie to yourself to get through your bowl of salad or veggie stir-fry.

 

I do not disagree that most people would not be able to handle killing an animal for food, but I would say that that is a relatively new phenomena. Mostly since our move from rural dwellers to city dwellers. People seem to have a lot less fortitude for such things these days.

 

And again, I do believe a vegetarian diet has a different energetic pattern than that of an omnivore diet. But every person has a different energetic pattern so every diet is not for every one.

 

I have tried existing on a vegetarian diets, vegan and otherwise. They do not work for me in the long-term.

Edited August 23, 2010 by Ryan T.

[passenger1980]

If you've read my posts then you will know that i have compassion for both animals and plants, i consider them to have the same value as all living beings in this earth. Also, i didn't say meat eaters are more primitive in any of my posts. Cynical is to say why you eat plants, they have feelings too and that is what many meat eaters try to do, it's a cheap shot at most. It's certainly stupid if you ask me, they assume i don't care about plants, completely nonsense. I made a separation between plants and animals, just as you make a separation between animals and humans. I can give you points about my decision, can you do the same? You surely don't eat humans...

 

I'm actually a very laid back vegetarian, i don't believe in activism, i don't really care what other people eat, and i can't certainly demand we should abolish the killing of animals, it should be an individual decision or a majority decision, we live in democracy. I try to not judge people, i was a meat eater for many years and i'm certainly no more enlightened or morally superior from being a vegetarian, just as i'm not better than a butcher, a thief or a murderer as a person. The problem comes when in a thread like this, in a spiritual oriented forum, people who actually understand all the logic and morality that these acts involves still miss the point and try to justify something that can't

 

There's not a single valid or strong point against vegetarianism. They all revolve around the need for justification of a complete innecessary practice. Meat sure taste good! i can agree with that. Many who are concerned about how is not healthy to be a vegan or vegetarian, have no concerns in buying a Big Mac or eating tons of sugar a week...

[Ryan T.]

If you've read my posts then you will know that i have compassion for both animals and plants, i consider them to have the same value as all living beings in this earth. Also, i didn't say meat eaters are more primitive in any of my posts. Cynical is to say why you eat plants, they have feelings too and that is what many meat eaters try to do, it's a cheap shot at most. It's certainly stupid if you ask me, they assume i don't care about plants, completely nonsense. I made a separation between plants and animals, just as you make a separation between animals and humans. I can give you points about my decision, can you do the same? You surely don't eat humans...

 

I'm actually a very laid back vegetarian, i don't believe in activism, i don't really care what other people eat, and i can't certainly demand we should abolish the killing of animals, it should be an individual decision or a majority decision, we live in democracy. I try to not judge people, i was a meat eater for many years and i'm certainly no more enlightened or morally superior from being a vegetarian, just as i'm not better than a butcher, a thief or a murderer as a person. The problem comes when in a thread like this, in a spiritual oriented forum, people who actually understand all the logic and morality that these acts involves still miss the point and try to justify something that can't

 

There's not a single valid or strong point against vegetarianism. They all revolve around the need for justification of a complete innecessary practice. Meat sure taste good! i can agree with that. Many who are concerned about how is not healthy to be a vegan or vegetarian, have no concerns in buying a Big Mac or eating tons of sugar a week...

 

Sorry confused you with de_paradise. My apologies.

 

I edited my post to reflect my points to you more accurately.

Edited August 23, 2010 by Ryan T.

[passenger1980]

No problem! I still don't understand why you are accussing me of not accepting the "taking of lives of plants". I eat plants because we can all agree we can't survive without them not because i find them less than animals. The discussion of vegetarianism is about animals not plants, it's why i don't eat animals not why i eat plants, we all eat plants. A frutarian diet is certainly dangerous for your health, Gandhi tried that for a while but couldn't cope i've read somewhere.

[metal dog]

I feel non-vegetarians are more primitive. That doesnt make them wrong, just ignorant and primitive in this aspect. Both my spiritual teachers eat meat, and both highly attained. But my values are based on my own evaluation, not simply the evaluations of my teachers. The way forward for an evolved human society is vegetarian. Its pretty obvious. Have you checked the seas lately? Most of the fish are gone. Have you checked livestock farming lately, like the Tyson monopolists? Its vulgar and dowright horrific. So you need to do your own evaluating. What can you accept to be blind to, what can you ouright reject.

 

The stupidity of industrialists and money-makers regarding overfishing and not using their resources responsibly or for greed does not disqualify animals for food as a biological need that has sustained man forever and is responsible for your own existence.

I think corporate restaurant chains and cruiseline feedbags should be banned. They are a tremendous demand creator for low-quality inhumanely treated animal products that lead to tremendous amounts of waste. They are not providing sustenance. But my three goats and two cows in the yard are my own affair.

 

I am quite thankful that during the three years I was a vegetarian that I did not adopt this holier-than-thou attitude, which just goes to show that what you eat has nothing to do with ethics, morality or being elevated.

Edited August 23, 2010 by metal dog

[passenger1980]

We still miss the point...if one adopts a holier than thou mentality, that's another problem, just like many people think they are better persons than criminals. But that doesn't change the fact that taking a human life is still "wrong" and it does not have good moral value. These debates always end up with the same scapegoats arguments that have nothing to do with the main point itself.

 

Saying that "what you eat has nothing to do with ethics, morality or being elevated" is like saying meditation has nothing to do with ethics, morality or being elevated. However, we can agree that all these acts if practised devoid of good intention and true contemplation/compassion are useless.

Edited August 23, 2010 by passenger1980

[metal dog]

If you've read my posts then you will know that i have compassion for both animals and plants, i consider them to have the same value as all living beings in this earth. Also, i didn't say meat eaters are more primitive in any of my posts. Cynical is to say why you eat plants, they have feelings too and that is what many meat eaters try to do, it's a cheap shot at most. It's certainly stupid if you ask me, they assume i don't care about plants, completely nonsense. I made a separation between plants and animals, just as you make a separation between animals and humans. I can give you points about my decision, can you do the same? You surely don't eat humans...

 

I'm actually a very laid back vegetarian, i don't believe in activism, i don't really care what other people eat, and i can't certainly demand we should abolish the killing of animals, it should be an individual decision or a majority decision, we live in democracy. I try to not judge people, i was a meat eater for many years and i'm certainly no more enlightened or morally superior from being a vegetarian, just as i'm not better than a butcher, a thief or a murderer as a person. The problem comes when in a thread like this, in a spiritual oriented forum, people who actually understand all the logic and morality that these acts involves still miss the point and try to justify something that can't

 

There's not a single valid or strong point against vegetarianism. They all revolve around the need for justification of a complete innecessary practice. Meat sure taste good! i can agree with that. Many who are concerned about how is not healthy to be a vegan or vegetarian, have no concerns in buying a Big Mac or eating tons of sugar a week...

There isn't a single valid strong point that eating animal foods is not natural for humans or unnecessary. The history of the human race on planet earth demonstrates this. You must demonize this as being less-evolved to justify it and elevate yourself.

 

And I don't eat meat because it tastes good. That is not the primary reason I eat animal food. And I must say animal food, not just limit it to meat.

 

I don't care if people are vegetarians. But when they point their bony anemic finger at me and call me or others killer, murderer, unethical, unnatural, barbaric, less-enlightened, ignorant or one-of-a-million labels...then I think it is time to take a look at why they are really doing that...you know?...the dismissing of a larger and poignant reality for the sake of their own aggrandizement or pride in their choices at the expense of another. They delude themselves in this pursuit.

[passenger1980]

Right, the same can be said about racial segregation...or any other (barbaric or not) ideas.

 

Mercy and compassion are virtues in my book, maybe they are not "natural" or maybe they didn't influence the evolution of man as much as you think.

 

Also again, i didn't point any fingers, nor i am morally superior to anyone because i don't eat meat, we all have our own opinions. Living a simple life is also "morally superior" and should be even more important than vegetarianism for that matter, but if you don't make any distinctions, you clearly have a nihilistic view of the world, and there's no point in debating much about anything then.

[metal dog]

This is what i'm talking about, people who can't see anything wrong with that picture amazes me. Now i don't have many problems with organic farming, i concede it's a much better way to do this, i may be a vegetarian but i'm not a cynic. However the person who approves this factory that kills 4000 sheeps a day, with gas chambers and proceed to cut them into pieces and think it's perfectly normal and natural (like if this was nazi germany) can't be serious. And the "that's what is for dinner" justification is laughable at best, i'm sorry if i offend you. That's not in my dinner plate.

 

Again, what if these were human beings? People compare animals to plants, with this pathetic argument that plants feel also (as if that changes anything for me) but to be honest the most fair comparison would be animals to humans (humans are animals actually remember?). What's the big difference between nazi germany and these modern day factory line killing machines?

 

Maybe we are not allowed to see that part of the killing process, because it proves my theory like i stated before. Most people can't and don't want to handle that and are suppressing their own compassion for the sake of their appetite. That's all there is to it. Like i said, i don't think they have any problem showing the harvesting of apples or potatoes...and i have no problem doing that or letting others do that either.

 

Then you cannot conceive of man's real relationship with nature. I have actually removed myself from suburbia for mental and physical health reasons and immersed myself into an agricultural and livestock lifestyle to experience some of that reality. I have put thought and actual real life effort into what it would be like, for real, if corporations and industry were not supplying all my needs through the grocery stores. This was very important to me coming from a city environment and having lived in one all my life.

 

I have my own livestock, I have my own garden and fruit trees, I have my own water supply...and I can tell you right now, without a doubt...that without animal foods in this northern climate while living more in relationship with nature...there is no way a vegetarian could possibly survive...and certainly no way your children would be born and raised with exceptional health. Not if you really had to go at it...ALL natural. Leather and animal skin use for clothing would also make itself known immediately to you if you did not have the department store or mall to supply you something with a little synthetic added to it made in India or Bangladesh by slave-wage workers.

 

In order for a vegetarian to survive in the modern sense, they must rely on an industrialized system of food growing, harvesting, packing and shipping to get all their needs...the process itself is a hundred times more unnatural to make it happen for the modern day suburbanite yuppie vegetarian...many of whom have never even grown one green thing for their whole consumptive lives. And it is this actual disconnect that has allowed a parasite like Monsanto to creep into this disconnected system and inject into it its GMO death seeds. Because had your food come from your backyard all this time, rather than Whole Foods Market Corp., then Monsanto couldn't have crept into your garden.

 

If I were to remove gasoline and electricity from my experience back to nature, then the harsher demands of that lifestyle would even be more severe with no compromises allowable as to what you really have to do to survive. There is actually a family close to me that does not use electricity and gas in their farming and lifestyle as much as possible. No television, no computer. They excel in the arts as this is what takes up their idle time...painting, drawing, music etc. They too would admit that their is nothing inhumane about taking the life of one of their cherished livestock and putting food on the table. It is considered a sacred thing...so why soil it by demonizing it with an opinion from someone who just doesn't know...who truly is...ignorant?

 

And it is this disconnect coupled with the superiority claims that piggy-backed the propaganda claims you, at some time, mentally digested and now regurgitate that vegetarianism was a superior choice over consuming animal foods that leaves you lost in your...ethics. Nature does not share your subjectivity toward your ethics...it makes actual demands and the more you live in harmony with it...the less friendlier and more hard it can become. Suck it up or die nature demands of you when you expose yourself bare to its harsh realities, rather than sit high upon your zafu making unrealistic judgments while downing bean curd. Get out of your air-conditioned comfort zone and feel the harshness of aloneness in nature...feel its bitter chill and its uncompromising demands...new definitions and the way you frame reality will meet you head on...and it is here that you will find my recipe for meat cake more than ethical.

 

And when someone throws in Nazi Germany...well...all hope is lost on that one. They would only know this if they were removed from the comfort of the zafu and the History Channel.

Edited August 23, 2010 by metal dog

[Brian]

...