Marblehead Posted March 25, 2010 Marblehead: Did not Jesus preserve his "honor" (loose use of that word here) by abandoning his body? That is a fair question. It has been a very long time since I have read any Christian literature so I will use the best memory I have which may well be very faulty. I'm not sure you can call it 'honor' or 'ego'. Jesus insisted that the Jews accept him as their god and and Jesus would not stop pushing the Jews. The Jews pushed back. Jesus lost his life. Now true, it is probably best that he did because elsewise he would not have become the symbol that he became. But then, I could argue that he did loose his honor and his life because the followers of Jesus all dispersed after his death. It was Paul (and a few others) beyond the control of the Jews who continued (what is supposed to be) Jesus's teachings. Peace & Love! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nanashi Posted March 25, 2010 By the way, here is an alternate translation of Dokkodo by William Scott Wilson-- I think it is better than the one on wikipedia, but I was too lazy to dig it out and retype it even when I created a similar thread a few months back. Let's see if anything different is interpreted. The Way of Self-Reliance (Shinmen Musashi, 1645) Do not turn your back on the various Ways of this world. Do not scheme for physical pleasure. Do not intend to rely on anything. Consider yourself lightly; consider the world deeply. Do not ever think in acquisitive terms. Do not regret things about your own personal life. Do not envy another's good or evil. Do not lament parting on any road whatsoever. Do not complain or feel bitterly about yourself or others. Have no heart for approaching the path of love. Do not have preferences. Do not harbor hopes for your own personal home. Do not have a liking for delicious food for yourself. Do not carry antiques handed down from generation to generation. Do not fast so that it affects you physically. While it's different with military equipment, do not be fond of material things. While on the Way, do not begrudge death. Do not be intent on possessing valuables or a fief in old age. Respect the gods and Buddhas, but do not depend on them. Though you give up your life, do not give up your honor. Never depart from the Way of the Martial Arts. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nanashi Posted March 25, 2010 Marblehead: Sure, good points. I don't really care about Jesus or Christianity, I just was speaking of even though he was killed, people still respect and honor him. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted March 25, 2010 ... I just was speaking of even though he was killed, people still respect and honor him. Yes, absolutely. As are most military service people who are killed in action. Serving god, serving country? Whatever. Better to stay alive, I think. Peace & Love! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted March 25, 2010 By the way, here is an alternate translation of Dokkodo by William Scott Wilson-- Yes, that one didn't rub me near as much as the other did. But still ... never mind. Hehehe. Peace & Love! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheSongsofDistantEarth Posted March 25, 2010 I am impressed with how proscriptive (never...do not...thall shalt not...) this list is. Some could be re-languaged, but I believe rules to live by should be in terms of stretching for an ideal or virtue. If I really sit with this list, I don't see an inspiring code for living. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted March 25, 2010 (edited) You're a woman? Just shows you how unassuming (or assuming) I can be. You have always been my little buddy. Yes, I have much respect for you. In fact I have respect for nearly all the members of this board. Anyhow, I'm surprised that I haven't recieved any rebutals to my post above. Or at least a question for clarification. Peace & Love! No I am not a woman - you were supposed to click on the JC link ... never mind try again JC Edited March 25, 2010 by apepch7 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted March 25, 2010 (edited) After all the do not's have been done, and do's haven't been done - then one gains some 1st hand expeirence of what it is like to miss the mark of such a list. Thus the main point to me is to quit repeating that which you've already learned is un-fortunate! Btw. in going through some of the items on this list is there anyone in the multi-verse who can claim they were perfect after the first time of going through same? (I don't hink so... ) Edited March 25, 2010 by 3bob Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted March 25, 2010 No I am not a woman - you were supposed to click on the JC link ... never mind try again JC Great! Thank you for clearing that up for me. Hehehe. No, I doubt that I would have much respect for that Jesus Christ. Seems to be more of a nut case than anything else. Peace & Love! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted March 25, 2010 After all the do not's have been done, and do's haven't been done - then one gains some 1st hand expeirence of what it is like to miss the mark of such a list. Thus the main point to me is to quit repeating that which you've already learned is un-fortunate! Btw. in going through some of the items on this list is there anyone in the multi-verse who can claim they were perfect after the first time of going through same? (I don't hink so... ) That's the problem (IMO) with dogma. There are no universals. Future potential is unlimited. Conditions and situations in 'real' life are ever-changing. What works within given limitations might well be the worst course of action within different limitations. And this is why I am so impressed with Taoist Philosophy. There are no dogma. There are numerous guides and generalized "if, then (probably)"s. I like that so much because it allows me to pay attention to the important things in life while enjoying the non-essential. Peace & Love! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted March 25, 2010 That's the problem (IMO) with dogma. There are no universals. Future potential is unlimited. Conditions and situations in 'real' life are ever-changing. What works within given limitations might well be the worst course of action within different limitations. And this is why I am so impressed with Taoist Philosophy. There are no dogma. There are numerous guides and generalized "if, then (probably)"s. I like that so much because it allows me to pay attention to the important things in life while enjoying the non-essential. Peace & Love! Sometimes I wonder if the problem is that people ask the sages for rules and they (probably reluctantly) give out a set which then get written down and changed into dogma - when they were only trying to be helpful. Because in the end the only rule is follow your heart/ follow the Tao ... or however you like to put it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted March 25, 2010 Well I guess you really do have a marble head don't you, unable to realise, no space in mind, unable to move freely you become intoxicated with your own ideas and opinions rather than the universal truths of the Tao. eh? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mal Posted March 25, 2010 That seems a bit unfair to me Z3N if we all agreed the discussion wouldn't be much fun. We all have different opinions base on our personal interpretations. While some may see dogma, I see an unusual set of prohibitions and wonder. Why would Musashi feel that way? What was it his life experiences that made him feel a guidlines like that would be valuable. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cymro Posted March 25, 2010 I see an unusual set of prohibitions and wonder. Why would Musashi feel that way? What was it his life experiences that made him feel a guidlines like that would be valuable. I was going to say: putting these ideas in context (I'm assuming they are part of a larger work or body of work) would probably help a whole lot. While things can exist outside of or even without context, I'm pretty sure that's not the case here. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
That Guy Posted March 25, 2010 You all want truth? There are no rules, only consequences. Any guidelines given by people over the ages are not dogma, but guidelines to follow in order to avoid consequences. And in case anyone has not yet realised, what Musashi wrote was aimed at those who strive to be the greatest warriors! Not you guys who sit around just meditating, drinking tea, typing on forums, playing PS3, living a modern day lifestyle etc.. The guideline is for the most dedicated W-A-R-R-I-O-R-S thats how i see it anyway AND I AM RIGHT! i spoke to his spirit, he told me so Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Z3N Posted March 25, 2010 That seems a bit unfair to me Z3N if we all agreed the discussion wouldn't be much fun. We all have different opinions base on our personal interpretations. While some may see dogma, I see an unusual set of prohibitions and wonder. Why would Musashi feel that way? What was it his life experiences that made him feel a guidlines like that would be valuable. One has a upmost respect for such a refined warrior of the times of past. Musashi holds some of the greatest wisdom to ever roam this earth with profoundly changing the human consciousness forever. More or less giving that Marblehead a poke, seeing the way he likes to combat on the forums, sorry mal. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted March 25, 2010 Sometimes I wonder if the problem is that people ask the sages for rules and they (probably reluctantly) give out a set which then get written down and changed into dogma - when they were only trying to be helpful. Because in the end the only rule is follow your heart/ follow the Tao ... or however you like to put it. Great observation, I think. So, so many of us just want a leader who we can follow so we don't have to think on our own. (I like making my own mistakes.) Peace & Love! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted March 25, 2010 You all want truth? There are no rules, only consequences. Any guidelines given by people over the ages are not dogma, but guidelines to follow in order to avoid consequences. And in case anyone has not yet realised, what Musashi wrote was aimed at those who strive to be the greatest warriors! Not you guys who sit around just meditating, drinking tea, typing on forums, playing PS3, living a modern day lifestyle etc.. The guideline is for the most dedicated W-A-R-R-I-O-R-S thats how i see it anyway AND I AM RIGHT! i spoke to his spirit, he told me so Hi That Guy, I don't get the chance to talk wity you very often. Just wanted to let you know that this post of your's is extremely to the point and very well expressed to the subject in question. Many Thanks!!! Peace & Love! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted March 25, 2010 Great observation, I think. So, so many of us just want a leader who we can follow so we don't have to think on our own. (I like making my own mistakes.) Peace & Love! I like making my own mistakes too ... I'm very good at it! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted March 25, 2010 One has a upmost respect for such a refined warrior of the times of past. Musashi holds some of the greatest wisdom to ever roam this earth with profoundly changing the human consciousness forever. More or less giving that Marblehead a poke, seeing the way he likes to combat on the forums, sorry mal. So you tell lies in order to poke at me? That holds no signifcance whatever. If you are going to poke at what I have presented then poke at the specific statement so that the statement can be discussed rather than taking it to a personal level and pretending that you know all and your opinion is the only one that is valid. Peace & Love! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
