Meditation Postures...Is the straight spine vital to effective meditation?

[Sundragon]

Hello,

 

I have been meditating off and on for years, more on than off, and have gotten good results by simply sitting at my computer chair, loveseat, couch, etc. with my back relatively straight. I am able to relax at will, concentrate for nice, long, extended periods of time and enter some pretty powerful altered states of consciousness.

 

Having said that, I have for some time been practicing Spring Forest QiGong and am working with Glenn Morris' Meditation Mastery program and am trying to do things "by thr book" which admittedly is making me feel like a newby to the whole practice of meditation. I'm fine with having a beginners mind in regards to all this. However, one thing is rather troubling to me....traditional meditation postures.

 

I use the sitting on the edge of a chair, gentitals hanging over the edge of the chair position because my physiolgy doesn't agree with lotus and half-lotus positions. I am somewhat comfortable at first in this position, but I find that just being able to relax and let go into the process of meditation is very difficult. My breathing becomes more shallow (not in the good meditation causes the body to utilize less oxygen kind of way, the my body is stressed kind of way), my diaphram tightens up, I find it difficult to concentrate on anything other than my discomfort which is rooted in a full-body stress reaction. This "stressed out" sensibility can last throughout the whole meditation and sometimes for a few hours afterward.

 

How important is it to have one's back completely (as much as possible) straight during meditation? How important are these postures anyway? My meditations have become worse since I decided to get more traditional in my practice and it is very, very discouraging. I rather miss the qaulity of my old meditation style and wonder if I should continue to "go by the book" and work through my discomfort hoping for a breakthrough or should I go back to my old, more relaxed style.

 

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

 

Sundragon

[Apech]

Hi

 

 

I have meditated in both seated in a chair and cross legged - I have never managed a comfortable half or full lotus (not even when I was younger and more flexible) I think the proportions of my legs prevent this for me.

 

I can empathise with your experience because I know that changing posture or technique can be quite unsettling. This is partly because of habit - its hard to relax into new positions because they feel unnatural and your attention is distracted by the very act of sitting in a new way. Obviously if you are committed to a new way of practice then you need to give it bedding in time as it is the time of change which disturbs you.

 

I think a straight spine is important and becomes increasingly important with time - but the straightness comes from inside out - through feeling and not from outside in through rigidly imposing straightness (in the way you see in military parades!). Its important to use feeling to align your body and it may be that you can avoid or lessen the reaction you describe by spending a few minutes feeling into the new posture so that it becomes natural. Try breathing from the diaphragm and relaxing into the posture on the out breath.

 

More important than all this is to do the meditation you are interested in and allow it to develop - do whatever works for you and just continue to explore - there isn't really much that is right or wrong, just what works and what doesn't (IMO).

 

Cheers

 

A.

[Cookie Monster]

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Edited September 26, 2020 by Ocean Form

[forestofemptiness]

Out of all the teachers, books, messages, etc. I've come across, in all traditions, a straight back is universally recommended.

 

Now this is a hard thing to accomplish. There is a difference between feeling straight and being straight. It may be, sundragon, that what you think is straight is not straight at all. If you have some one take a long ruler (at least a meter or a yard), they should connect three points: the lower back, the middle of the shoulders, and the back of the skull. The first time I started doing this, I felt like I was tipping backward, which is not uncommon.

 

Also, a lot of meditation teachers allow some people to reinforce their backs with pillows and cushions.

[Encephalon]

Please click on the Embrace Horse link in my signature for a fine account of the importance of posture. Daniel Reid delves deeply into the biomechanics of posture in "The Book of Chinese Health and Healing." Good posture is like taking the kinks out of a garden hose so the water can flow. I always had trouble with maintaining good posture while meditating in my earlier years. A twice weekly regimen of deadlifts, hyperextensions, and bent-over flyes is a program designed for meditators. It healed a lifetime of back problems for me.

[voidisyinyang]

Yeah I recommend the small universe level 1 sitting meditation c.d. from http://springforestqigong.com -- you can do that sitting in a chair with back straight. But you have to focus your mind while being relaxed and then this creates electromagnetic fields. You can read online Mantak Chia's microcosmic orbit book on scribd --

 

http://www.scribd.com/doc/2672168/Mantak-Chia-Awaken-Healing-Energy-through-the-Tao

 

so then after you create electromagnetic fields -- the chi -- then you can move into half and full-lotus which stabilizes the body for deeper meditation. So you can "black out" while in full-lotus but still be meditating -- in other words you can go into deeper relaxation without having your body fall over, etc. But then when your mind is more focused you can maintain awareness, etc.

 

Hello,

 

I have been meditating off and on for years, more on than off, and have gotten good results by simply sitting at my computer chair, loveseat, couch, etc. with my back relatively straight. I am able to relax at will, concentrate for nice, long, extended periods of time and enter some pretty powerful altered states of consciousness.

 

Having said that, I have for some time been practicing Spring Forest QiGong and am working with Glenn Morris' Meditation Mastery program and am trying to do things "by thr book" which admittedly is making me feel like a newby to the whole practice of meditation. I'm fine with having a beginners mind in regards to all this. However, one thing is rather troubling to me....traditional meditation postures.

 

I use the sitting on the edge of a chair, gentitals hanging over the edge of the chair position because my physiolgy doesn't agree with lotus and half-lotus positions. I am somewhat comfortable at first in this position, but I find that just being able to relax and let go into the process of meditation is very difficult. My breathing becomes more shallow (not in the good meditation causes the body to utilize less oxygen kind of way, the my body is stressed kind of way), my diaphram tightens up, I find it difficult to concentrate on anything other than my discomfort which is rooted in a full-body stress reaction. This "stressed out" sensibility can last throughout the whole meditation and sometimes for a few hours afterward.

 

How important is it to have one's back completely (as much as possible) straight during meditation? How important are these postures anyway? My meditations have become worse since I decided to get more traditional in my practice and it is very, very discouraging. I rather miss the qaulity of my old meditation style and wonder if I should continue to "go by the book" and work through my discomfort hoping for a breakthrough or should I go back to my old, more relaxed style.

 

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

 

Sundragon

Edited January 23, 2010 by drewhempel

[steve]

From an anatomical point of view the spine is NEVER straight. It is shaped like a recurve bow. That curve is lessened in meditation but the spine is only straight in pathological conditions.

 

The importance of a "straight" spine in seated meditation is that it allows you to find a balance where there is a minimum of muscle tension necessary to remain upright.

This is the same in standing (and moving such as Taiji for that matter).

Trying to learn proper posture from a book is difficult. If you are trying to learn from a book and experiencing discomfort and frustration, you may want to think of investing in a live teacher.

 

That said, the spine is not straight in meditation. The goal is an erect spine with minimum muscle tension. If sitting on a chair or stool make sure the hips are at a comfortable degree of flexion - too flexed or too extended will cause imbalance and tension. Experiment with higher and lower stools. Allow the top of your head to lift upwards tucking the chin extremely slightly (millimeters). The feeling should be elongation, opening, relaxation of the cervical spine. Relax the shoulders and allow the chest to relax inward very slightly. The pelvis tucks under just a bit, again - all of these adjustments are minute. This should allow a similar feeling of elongation, opening, and relaxation of the lumbar spine.

That's about it.

 

I used to use half lotus but am more comfortable now with the Burmese posture.

The full lotus is the most stable and can be achieved with a little patience and proper practice.

 

Good luck!

[fizix]

Unfortunately some practices require half/full lotus posture. Powerful practices.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Look at your posture throughout the day, and try to feel what muscles you habitually hold contracted.

 

You'd be surprised how much tension we carry around. My chest is usually quite tense, which pulls my shoulders forward, which pulls my spine forward. Sitting up straight is uncomfortable, but not because I can't do it, but because my muscles are so tense, and sitting straight actually pulls on them. Once I massage, relax, and stretch those muscles out, sitting with my back straight feels quite comfortable.

 

Same thing with half/full lotus. It's not that I can't do it, it's that the muscles in my legs and hips are so tight. Once I do proper relaxing/stretching, full lotus is quite easy (I was surprised the first time I got into it, my feet slid right into position and I was like, "whoa"). In lotus my spine is naturally straight and I am erect, but relaxed.

 

So I wouldn't say you have to "work" to achieve these positions, rather, you have to "not work" to achieve these positions

[Phoenix]

From an anatomical point of view the spine is NEVER straight. It is shaped like a recurve bow. That curve is lessened in meditation but the spine is only straight in pathological conditions.

 

 

This is true. For the purpose of meditation postures, "straight" means that you shouldn't allow your shoulders to hunch forward. Your shoulders should be squared -- not pulled all the way back, as in a military chest-jutting posture, but not hunched forward. There should be zero hunchback, in other words.

 

This is enormously important to achieving meditative stability for any reasonable period of time. When you hunch your back, you'll find it increasingly difficult to remain focused and undistracted. I have no idea why it works that way physiologically, but it does, at least for me.

[C T]

I have no idea why it works that way physiologically, but it does, at least for me.

Correct posturing optimizes the flow of 'subtle' energies which then allows discursive thoughts to subside more readily. There are other explanations but the primary one would be this i believe. Unconsciously hunching the back during meditation sometimes leads to a kind of stupor, and if left unchecked can occasionally induce a form of 'blankness' or 'whiteness' which funnily enough some would mistake as a 'blissful voidness'.. and then think they have achieved a high level realization when in truth it was more like a form of mental numbness that pervaded the body-mind. lol

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

Meditation is a 'state of mind', 'NO MIND', actually.. for body mechanics, look to QiGong..

 

Be well..

[joeblast]

good points steve and tjl. reading the op I was thinking 'too much in your head.'

 

regular qigong will help firm the necessary muscles and done in proper proportions you wont normally have issues in meditation. either way, proper attention to posture will help firm the foundational muscles that are responsible for proper posture, so a good mix of both should alleviate that.

 

sundragon, what's your "process of meditation?" your approach might not resonate well with you at this point in time...

[voidisyinyang]

Western males are quick to get stuck in "conceptual" realms -- in fact literacy is in direct opposition to meditation.

 

But meditation is not just "no mind" etc. -- it's body transformation. Master Nan, Huai-chin makes this point in his several books.

 

Music is a great model -- full-lotus is the complementary opposites of the body-mind transformation. That's why it works so well. Pyramid power.

 

It's true that in real meditation the body is so full of electromagnetic fields that it is just like deep sleep but you maintain awareness -- beyond the body and mind. Still full-lotus will ground you for this -- Jim Nance had to sit two hours nonstop in full-lotus every night nonstop for several months -- just to get to the beginning of REAL meditation! haha.

[steve]

Unfortunately some practices require half/full lotus posture. Powerful practices.

It's only unfortunate for those who become attached to particular methods.

It is the nature of mind to desire the practice one cannot do or does not know.

There are no practices that are necessary, many paths to choose from, none of them necessary...

Edited January 24, 2010 by steve f

[Non]

I simply don't know how to keep my back straight, if I have to tuck in my lower back....

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

Meditation is 'stilling the mind'. 'Stilling the mind' provides the Clarity for everything else. Meditation is not dependent on posture, mantra, mudra, visualization, etc.. If the mind is engaged in agendas, whatever the intent, it cannot find Clarity.. To assert that meditation is dependent on posture is a great misunderstanding. That does not prevent meditation from occuring while in a specific posture, it only diminishes the likelihood.. the maintenance of the posture will likely engage the mind and distract the practitioner from Clarity of the actual experience.. how 'present' are you if you are fumbling with structural mechanics.. Electro-magnetic fields and Qi are matters for QiGong and intellectual evaluation, internalize these issues, then.. in meditation the internalized evolution of 'who you have become' will be the 'natural' clarity..

 

Be well..

[forestofemptiness]

Depends on who you're talking to. Each person requires something different. I've seen many people who go nowhere because they try to do nothing, rather than try to learn some concentration or non-attachment.

 

Greetings..

 

Meditation is a 'state of mind', 'NO MIND', actually.. for body mechanics, look to QiGong..

 

Be well..

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

Hi Forest: I do not intend to imply 'do nothing'.. i intend to imply before doing something, find the Clarity to discern what it is you're doing.. i have seen many people scurrying about doing 'much' and accomplishing little..

 

Be well..

[voidisyinyang]

Chunyi Lin says 20 minutes of full lotus is worth 4 hours of any other meditation practice. As long as you use the yin-yang principles then you are fine -- only full-lotus is the most effective. There are a zillion methods to be sure -- but full-lotus is the best for the yin-yang resonance. Yin-yang-emptiness is the Tai-chi -- not a method -- but the complementary opposite resonance.

 

It's only unfortunate for those who become attached to particular methods.

It is the nature of mind to desire the practice one cannot do or does not know.

There are no practices that are necessary, many paths to choose from, none of them necessary...

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

Chunyi Lin says

You should hear some of the stuff people i know 'say'..

From Wikipedia:

Meditation is a mental discipline by which the practitioner attempts to get beyond the reflexive, "thinking" mind into a deeper state of relaxation or awareness.

That seems to dispel 'forms' and postures and visualizations.. mostly, competing 'methods' are the offspring of pride and arrogance, a need to be perceived as having superior knowledge..

 

Be well..

[hagar]

Greetings..

 

 

You should hear some of the stuff people i know 'say'..

 

That seems to dispel 'forms' and postures and visualizations.. mostly, competing 'methods' are the offspring of pride and arrogance, a need to be perceived as having superior knowledge..

 

Be well..

 

First of all, coming to a point where your practice stops "working" is something to be celebrated. Its a wonderful sign of progress. When you start wondering if you're totally wasting your time and the whole thing seems meaningless and even silly, even better!! A couple of times the last months I'e found myself down at a local bar instead of practicing, to be honest. I realized, after a couple of beers, that mostly I just want some peace of mind.

 

I think Nons question is valid from two perspectives. There are actually two opposing entryways into the whole notion of meditation and posture, and it boils down to emphasis.

 

Its abit of a dilemma. In one way you could actually reach "realization" through slumping. If you go through Adyashanti's material, he mentions this many times. Posture is never perfect, and the experience of finally realizing what you are comes through understanding what is true without thought. And through this reach the "natural state". And I totally connect to that approach. Undogmatic and direct.

 

On the other hand, I have had my meditation posture corrected by my teacher, and it was like turning on the light, and the pain at the same time. Its like finding a code, or a switch. If I think I am doing it correctly, there's usually some adjustment that needs to be made. It has to do whith how the body aligns with heaven and earth. Its like the body AND the mind yearns for realization and liberation.

 

My best advice is to take the sitting position (crossedlegged or half-lotus) and just lean into the postition, when youu think you are sitting straight, lean in some more and try dropping the tension. Dont look for relaxation first. If you connect to the chi, you will feel like you are supported, and are "being meditated", which is a very tangible and "physical" experience, more like relaxing with a nice view infront of you with no need to figure anything out.

 

Bla bla

 

h

Edited January 24, 2010 by hagar

[joeblast]

Its amusing when I find myself in agreement with all of you, yet you do not seem to all agree with each other

[Guest sykkelpump]

keeping spine stright is very importent but most importent is a relaxed comfortable position imo.

If you are confused about how to meditate,then I suggest you read this.best meditation instruction by far

http://www.dhammasukha.org/Study/Books/Pdf/The%20Anapanasati%20Sutta%202.pdf

[Mark Foote]

 

 

I use the sitting on the edge of a chair, gentitals hanging over the edge of the chair position because my physiolgy doesn't agree with lotus and half-lotus positions...

 

How important is it to have one's back completely (as much as possible) straight during meditation? How important are these postures anyway?

 

 

I had some excellent experience on jury duty, sitting in a chair. Two things are important to me, sitting in a chair: sit on the edge of the chair, as I believe you describe (a chair with four legs solid on the floor); then, one foot flat on the floor with the knee at about a 90 degree angle, and the ball of the other foot resting on the floor under your tailbone, approximately. I sit this way all day at the computer, and have done so for the last twenty years. My back is not straight, especially the lower back, for the most part. Workman's comp came out to review it at one place I worked (management requested it, they were nervous), and they said fine. I can find absorption in this posture, which to me is like talking to the one who made this shell and letting it take me wherever. So to speak.

 

Cranial-sacral theory provides an excellent explanation of the importance of the crossed-legged postures, as far as I'm concerned, and that would be: they isolate the motion of the cranial sacral system at the sacrum so that it's apparent. Activity in meditation is involuntary, but for me it's important to remember that the fascia and ligaments can generate muscular activity without conscious intention, as they stretch.

 

Allopathic and cranial-sacral medicine both use dermatones, the areas on the skin where the nerves from the spine end up, as a means for diagnosing spinal dysfunction; standard testing is to run a pin head down the leg or arm, and see where there's a lack of feeling, and there are charts that will show you between which vertebrae the nerves are pinched if you have a lack of feeling in a particular location. What this says to me is that if you have feeling to the surface of the skin all over the body, your head, neck, and spine are aligned pretty much correctly, regardless of how it looks.

 

At the same time, it's my belief that in the lotus, motion of the cranial-sacral system at the sacrum results in activity in the muscles of the legs and pelvis, as feeling is opened or extended throughout the lower body. That activity ultimately returns to the bones on either side of the skull through the extensors, which travel in three sets behind the spine to the temporal bones on each side of the skull behind the jaw. As the temporals move the parietals on either side of the crown of the head, and the nerves that determine the cranial-sacral fluid volume rhythm respond to pressure at the saggital suture, it's possible that a feedback develops in the cranial sacral rhythm. John Upledger talks about "still points", when the cranial-sacral rhythm appears to cease momentarily, and the fascial support for the body rearranges subtley; he found that maintaining a slight extension on the bones of the skull was conducive to still points, but the individual's own psychie and need were the real determining factors.

 

We all have anxiety around falling down, especially backwards. Look for motion side to side, around, and forward and back wherever consciousness occurs; that's a sense of a physical place, the "wherever consciousness occurs", which the zen masters aver we should attend to 24/7. Relax the activity in the three directions. Let it sink, if you feel good with it, remember that the stretch that generates activity doesn't necessarily feel pleasant, but it doesn't have to go all the way to painful if you can relax the associated activity and let the mind move.

 

Single-weighted postures have a built-in activity from the stretch involved as well. & blah blah blah as somebody so eloquently said!

Edited January 24, 2010 by Mark Foote