Is it OK to charge people money for instruction?

[soaring crane]

Hi,

 

I hold three and a half Qigong courses a week, no claims of enlightenment from me and the Qigong I teach is pretty loose, lol. We have a lot of fun and I want the people to feel good and learn something valuable to get them through their days. I encourage them to search out other teachers, experiment a bit, try to find the path that fits best. Many end up staying with me, though I don't seek "recognition" or "confirmation" in any way. I do have some hardcore "fans" (including a scary number of female admirers; I learned to recognize "that look" a long time ago ), possibly because I do encourage them to express themselves (something people in stodgy old Upper Franconia aren't always used to doing) and that's what they like the most about me

 

I'm kind of an exotic bird over here.

 

Anyway, I said "three and a half" because of the four classes I hold, only one is really "my" group. We get a lot more intense in our practice, it can become quite intimate and we experience some amazing things together. I practice my Qigong, and let my inner voice talk to them simultaneously. This session is the one I organize myself the way I want to. It's by far the best one. And... I do it on a donation basis. I really just need money for gas, but they insist on giving me more. I have a Nepalese silk pouch that they put cash in, in secret, when I'm not looking, lol.

 

The other three classes are organized by other people, one through an adult education center where my fee is set and inflexible, one at a private yoga center (using the term loosely) where I have to set my fee roughly to what the other instructors charge and one through a martial arts club that's run by an influential doctor who manages to get people motivated to do whatever she says. They pay me a LOT, around 90-100 euro per 90 minute session. I basically submit a bill based on how many participants there are. The club isn't permitted to show a profit, so I can take most of what comes in. Actually, I have to take it.

 

So, I guess, without really "agreeing" with the structured way of looking at it as GiH posted it, I intuitively follow the logic.

 

Which brings me to a question for GiH - do you actually hold courses anywhere? Why exactly are you encouraging this discussion to begin with? We'll all be quite gone in a few millenia and then none of this will matter anyway.

 

I'll add something - I saw Deepak Chopra on Larry King today and felt very turned off. I turned him off. I think he's a phony baloney just cashing in on spirituality

 

OTOH, I like Bagwan/Osho and don't care how much of a personal fortune he made. He deserved it and the universe recognized that. Cool. Wish I could have met him personally.

 

xi xi

Edited December 23, 2009 by soaring crane

[ShaktiMama]

Is it so wrong to help a person get these needs met first and then work up the hierarchy to the spiritual needs, instead of waiting for them to get there without help?

 

 

It is not a question of right or wrong. It is a question of time management. I can do only so much. Will you help them?

 

I am not a social worker or a therapist or a nun. I won't work outside of my area of expertise. It's unproductive and ineffective and serves no one. I can direct them to where they can get help.

[soaring crane]

A separate post because it's a separate topic. I've held classes at Physical Therapy centers as well, where the participants were all patients (who are mostly sick in the head to begin with, just don't tell them that) and the costs are covered in part or in whole by health insurance. I hated it. I couldn't do it. I do not what anything to do with health insurance. The people were only there because it was getting paid for, they could have tried "Pilates" or "Healthy Back" classes or whatever. They only wanted to get their minimum 70% participation certificates so they could submit them and be done. And the centers do the math to see how much they can charge based on what the insurances are willing to pay. It's a racket.

 

It really like a parallel universe out there sometimes and it shocks me every time I encounter it

Edited December 23, 2009 by soaring crane

[goldisheavy]

Here's something I think you overlooked:

 

- not paying means no implication

- no implication means no responsability

- no responsability = everyone can do whatever the heck they want, however the heck they want

- that is not learning, therefore, of course no one needs to pay for that

 

Not paying = No responsability

 

Little1,

 

I only meant not paying in the sense of there being a business transaction, such a money or barter.

 

But the student still pays in other ways:

 

- in time

- in effort

- in dedication

- in constancy of application

- at a heart level (secret payment)

- sometimes the payment is in health (loss of health to the student, or risk to life)

- sometimes the payment is in the loss of worldly friends

- sometimes the payment is in the loss of worldly livelihood

- and sometimes the payment is in losing the ability to live the old way

 

What I am describing here is a payment with potentially no upper limit. Some students have given up their lives during training within the context of a sacred relationship. Just because you don't exchange money or barter with eggs and apples or gold for training doesn't mean you're not paying.

 

Not only that, but I would say if you're learning anything worthwhile at all when it comes to transcendence, expect to pay the price, but not in money or barter.

Edited December 24, 2009 by goldisheavy

[goldisheavy]

I spent the best part of 30 years in the Far East studying under various Buddhist teachers.

None of them charged, yet the way to their schools and monasteries are paved with benefactors

waiting to donate to their cause. Why? Because there is sincerity, and altruism is felt to be

genuine.

 

In the west, its a different story altogether. I think people here are less giving, and more

skeptical, and they always say, 'see what you got first before i part with my hard-earned

money'. Thats normal. Different mentality. So those who profess to teach the ways towards

liberation (in the west) have the added pressure of having to 'show off' what they got. So its

a kind of cycle that gives rise to all kinds of 'mine's better than yours' syndrome, and in the

end, confusion reigns as a raging fire of petty differences envelops the whole spiritual

marketplace. How unfortunate.

 

It's unfortunate, but rather than adopting to the voracious and insane greed of the Western culture, the teachers should keep their teachings to themselves instead.

 

It's important to keep your integrity intact. If the Western people don't know how to donate and don't know what it means to be in a sacred relationship, then fuck them, or more precisely, the Western people have fucked themselves over. But at no point should a teacher, who theoretically knows better, start charging money for something that can't have a price affixed to it.

 

I myself have visited one Dzogchen Lama. I thought he was a moron and that his teaching was deficient. I had no connection with the guy and I didn't like his students either (their eyes were dull, and their spirits were quashed, and they were mostly Asians and old white people... they attended with the sense of boredom and non-participation, and the Lama had the same attitude too, "let's just get this over with," like someone forced him to teach or something... maybe it was the only way he thought he could exist in USA? He should have just learned a trade instead, like every other immigrant) I was probably the youngest guy there and the only person whose spirit was not dead. I said fuck this and never showed up there again. But I still left an envelope with a hundred bucks in it for the teacher, even though I had no intention to return and hated the guy. Oh, and no one demanded money from me either. The teaching was offered for free, which is the proper way to offer such teaching, and that's something I did/do respect.

 

If even one person in the West has integrity, then true teachers should refuse to accept money or barter and to proceed forming sacred relationships like it has always been done. I know I exist and I know I have integrity. Normally I don't talk about my donations, but I figured this was one appropriate time to break that rule of mine.

Edited December 24, 2009 by goldisheavy

[goldisheavy]

Here are some tips for would be teachers of the sacred who come to the West:

 

Reject Western greed and say no to collecting money or bartering.

 

But do accept these features of the Western culture:

 

-------

 

1. Say "hi" to the student who walks into your abode. If you are too important to say "hi", then one of your senior students should do that, if they are present in the room.

 

2. Offer some tea or coffee and make the person comfortable. Introduce yourself and chat for a while.

 

3. Do not sit on a throne. In the West we don't do thrones and for a good reason. A sacred relationship doesn't require a throne, so leave the throne back home.

 

4. If you are too sick to talk, but your senior student is in the room, there is no excuse for the senior student not talking in your stead.

 

5. Work to create a cordial, warm, open, informal, family atmosphere. It's not like it's hard work! Sometimes just getting of your fat ass is already 50% there.

 

--------

 

This is my advice based on real experience I had.

[therion]

Unless the person teaching is enlightened it (teaching) is always done because of some form of self interest no matter how well it is hidden from the teacher or what he may claim. An enlightened being is the only one who can claim to want nothing but liberation for all beings. The rest all have hidden agendas.

 

Charging money is just being honest about it.

[goldisheavy]

GiH - do you actually hold courses anywhere?

 

I do not. If I wanted to teach some mundane skill, I might "hold a course" as you say. However, if I wanted to teach something sacred, it would not occur to me to hold a course.

[C T]

This is an excellent example of how a teacher ought to be. He gave a teaching in a dormitory room!

He is a lineage holder!

 

 

PS - see? no pretense at assuming full lotus and all that blah!

Edited December 24, 2009 by CowTao

[steve]

Interesting points GIH.

I have a few perspectives that differ a bit for the sake of discussion.

 

1. Why do we take matters of the sacred and spiritual so seriously? Are these things not entertainment? Most people use entertainment to distract them from the pain of daily living, from boredom, and so on. Why do most folks investigate the sacred and the spiritual? For the same reasons - we are always looking for something different, better, more, looking to relieve the pain and suffering of life. We're conditioned to take sacred and spiritual things seriously but nothing brings you closer to liberation than a good, healthy laugh (or orgasm)! These things are fiction - constructs of the mind to try and explain things that cannot be explained. I think we would live in a better world if the sacred and spiritual arenas didn't take themselves so seriously.

 

2. Why should we not charge for sacred and spiritual information and direction if these things are felt to enhance and improve life? Why should I not expect to pay for such a service? If someone spends their life mastering a technique or approach that others want to emulate, I think it's very reasonable for them to choose a fair price to charge.

 

3. Why is it OK for us to charge for health care? Isn't this the one thing that should be freely available to all? If there was anything that should be free and readily available, I would choose health care. Or food, or shelter. These are the necessities of life that I would like to see guaranteed to all. To me, things of a spiritual and sacred nature are accessories, luxuries, completely unessential. Distractions for people who don't need to spend most of their time securing food, shelter, and security for their families.

 

4. As mentioned already, people generally value things based on what they have invested. In the US, things are generally valued based on a monetary equivalent. This is unfortunate but unavoidable. We have come to confuse money with wealth. If I charge 3 people $3000 up front for a course in Daoist meditation and another group nothing - which group do you think would still be practicing in 3 years. I would place a bet on that outcome!

 

There are lots of other points for discussion but these jumped out at me. And some of these points may be slightly exaggerated for effect. I think this topic has no real answer other than it is ultimately an individual decision for each of us to make.

[Stigweard]

A teacher should be financially independent of their students. If a teacher depends on their students for sustenance then they will have attachment to that student coming back. Sometimes the best that a teacher can do for a student is to send them away.

 

I am not against charging mind you. Just as long as the above condition is met.

 

PS. I don't charge my students, though I do except the donations they voluntarily offer.

[Aetherous]

However, if I wanted to teach something sacred, it would not occur to me to hold a course.

 

How is it possible to teach something sacred?

[Smile]

There is nothing wrong charging money for anything. No one can teach you or promise you enlightenment... this is as ridiculous as promising you the sun. They can teach you the skills that will help you to cover the first steps and they may charge for their time if they please. The mental conditioning about "money and spirituality" is very common. Most of the people that talk about it don't have any and provided a ton of justifications why it is so. Not that it is bad. If you dedicate yourself to cultivation, you are probably poor, because it takes a lot of time to cultivate properly. But they also should get over their entitlement issues of how everything spiritual should be free. Good luck. It will never happen.

[C T]

How is it possible to teach something sacred?

By example?

 

(sorry Scott - couldn't resist! )

[Aetherous]

That was actually a great answer.

[de_paradise]

Dear Mr. Obama,

 

It has come to our attention that certain booksellers, notably Amazon are selling spiritual lessons in written form. There are also many teachers around the world who charge directly or indirectly for esoteric teachings. There is also a little group in Florida called KAP who charge for online Skype lessons, and these people post in Taobums. Please divert the ground troops from Iraq to take care of these issue wherever in the world these would be sacred-ists pop up. We insist everything spiritual should be as free as Gideon bibles in American hotels, and even though someone (the Gideons) paid for them, money should not come into the picture of our unblemished evolved state.

 

Yours truly,

 

"I ate too much fruitcake"

[Taomeow]

Dear Mr. Obama,

 

It has come to our attention that certain booksellers, notably Amazon are selling spiritual lessons in written form. There are also many teachers around the world who charge directly or indirectly for esoteric teachings. There is also a little group in Florida called KAP who charge for online Skype lessons, and these people post in Taobums. Please divert the ground troops from Iraq to take care of these issue wherever in the world these would be sacred-ists pop up. We insist everything spiritual should be as free as Gideon bibles in American hotels, and even though someone (the Gideons) paid for them, money should not come into the picture of our unblemished evolved state.

 

Yours truly,

 

"I ate too much fruitcake"

 

Dear Mr. Obama,

 

It has come to our attention that your party (not the Democratic one, you know which one I mean) has installed pyramids and parking lots to replace our ancestral forests. As a result we the people have to pay for basic necessities of survival such as food, water, shelter, medical and dental care. At the same time, certain individuals do not charge the public for such surplus luxuries as taiji, qigong, feng shui, enlightenment, and the like. We find it outrageous. We urge you as our pro forma representative to act on this matter and make it vice versa, the way it should be, by amending our constitution accordingly.

 

Yours truly,

 

"I had to pay for my fruitcake"

[Harold]

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[soaring crane]

In my opinion, any of the activities on Gold's list could be done in a sacred or transcendent manner, not just items 9-12. Probably any action learned can be sacred. It depends on how the learner expresses the teachings in his or her life. Learning is an exchange, not just knowledge being poured into an empty vessel.

 

That's a very insightful take on it. Thank you, Dainin.

 

 

 

I do not. If I wanted to teach some mundane skill, I might "hold a course" as you say. However, if I wanted to teach something sacred, it would not occur to me to hold a course.

 

What's mundane? What's sacred? Nothing is "sacred", imo.

 

 

Dear Mr. Obama,

... We insist everything spiritual should be as free as Gideon bibles in American hotels, and even though someone (the Gideons) paid for them, money should not come into the picture of our unblemished evolved state.

 

Yours truly,

 

"I ate too much fruitcake"

Dear Mr. Obama,

 

It has come to our attention that your party (not the Democratic one, you know which one I mean) has installed pyramids and parking lots to replace our ancestral forests. ...

"I had to pay for my fruitcake"

 

Thank you for the breakfast chuckles, and of course you're both absolutely right.

 

Merry Christmas

[goldisheavy]

Interesting points GIH.

I have a few perspectives that differ a bit for the sake of discussion.

 

1. Why do we take matters of the sacred and spiritual so seriously?

 

Who says we do? Just because I do, doesn't mean we do or you do or anyone here does. That's one.

 

Two, if you ask me why I do, then my answer is simple: it's because I take the mundane seriously too. If I thought that mundane concerns were a joke, I may have no use for spiritual concerns either. Taking spiritual concerns seriously is an antidote only for that time when you take mundane concerns seriously. And here it is important not to lie to ourselves. I know many people deceive themselves when they think they don't take day to day life seriously.

 

but nothing brings you closer to liberation than a good, healthy laugh (or orgasm)!

 

I strongly disagree. This is a trite and disingenuous thing to say in my opinion, and I have nothing against laughter or orgasms.

 

I think we would live in a better world if the sacred and spiritual arenas didn't take themselves so seriously.

 

There is no spiritual arena. There are simply different ways of thinking about life. As long as you hold a deluded view about life seriously, you must hold the antidote view also equally seriously. If you have already transcended all mundane concerns, then go ahead and don't take spiritual views seriously either, you've earned it.

 

2. Why should we not charge for sacred and spiritual information and direction if these things are felt to enhance and improve life?

 

The greedy person feels that extra pound of cake enhances the taste of the meal. Greedy people rely on their feelings. So why do they go astray? Because their feelings are not tempered by wisdom. It's not enough to just feel something to be true. One has to study it deeply and critically.

 

http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/dan_pink...motivation.html

 

http://www.parentcentral.ca/parent/article/454142

 

This just scratches the surface. The thread that runs through such studies and discoveries is that the monetary incentive perverts everything, and it especially perverts morality. And we see this all around us. Why is it that companies are running with only the short-term goals in place? Why is it that the difference between the low earners and the high earners in an average corp has increased from 30x to upwards of 400x? Why? The more we monetize our relationships, the more perverted we become.

 

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 

For most people this is what life is all about.

 

Why should I not expect to pay for such a service?

 

That's exactly the problem. You think of it as service. You cannot even conceive of a sacred relationship anymore. Your ability to do that has been atrophied by money, or more specifically, by our money-oriented culture. If we don't turn around soon, sons will think of their fathers as a service. Fathers will think of their sons as an inve$$$tment, looking forward to juicy dividends, and not much more, because, after all, children are business arrangements.

 

Business arrangements take the human warmth, the precious ambiguity, the openness, the spontaneity and the sacredness out of our relationships. Once you put a price on something, that's it. You create an equivalence. This is worth $500. It's now a number. I pay $500, it's mine, I do what I want with it, I've earned it, I paid, I am off the hook, I owe nothing.

 

Steve f, you need to wake up.

 

Why is it OK for us to charge for health care?

 

Who says it's OK? Haven't you been paying attention to what the profit motive does to health care in USA? The profit motive has utterly decimated the quality of our health care here in USA.

Edited December 24, 2009 by goldisheavy

[goldisheavy]

A teacher should be financially independent of their students. If a teacher depends on their students for sustenance then they will have attachment to that student coming back.

 

I think this is an excellent point Stigweard.

 

You're just scratching the surface there.

 

How is it possible to teach something sacred?

 

You begin by allowing yourself to drift into a sacred relationship.

[goldisheavy]

http://www.commondreams.org/video/2009/12/23

 

This is an interesting quote on the interplay of money and morals.

 

http://www.ted.com/talks/shaffi_mather_a_n...corruption.html

 

Here's another interesting video. I was thinking. Why wouldn't the grandma want to pay the bribe for those 3 stair$? Wouldn't she appreciate and treasure those stairs even more if she had to bribe her way to a license to build the stairs?

 

If I listen to some of the New Age fool$ in this thread, surely that's the ca$e.

 

Another link:

 

 

This one makes it obvious how money makes everything more sacred (not).

Edited December 24, 2009 by goldisheavy

[Old Man Contradiction]

If it costs the teacher money to teach, it should cost the student money to learn. My teacher's monthly fee goes to paying for the studio we use, also the profit goes to sending him back and forth to and from China. This is a worthy investment because it enables him to not only teach full-time, but also to reach higher levels himself which improves the teaching that I receive.

Edited December 24, 2009 by Old Man Contradiction

[宁]

Little1,

 

I only meant not paying in the sense of there being a business transaction, such a money or barter.

 

 

That's what I said, but you said something else the first time.

Paying is needed: every service needs a form of payment, it's called reciprocity...

 

Paying money is getting away easy for the student.

If you want to preach anything, start preaching that, cuz it's the goddamn truth...

 

Paying with time and labour is more costly than money, much more costly.

[steve]

I strongly disagree. This is a trite and disingenuous thing to say in my opinion, and I have nothing against laughter or orgasms.

I'm really surprised to hear you say that.

I'm not being trite or disingenuous in the least!

Don't you see any value in Zen/Chan? In Tantra? In Dao?

Spontaneous laughter is one of the few reflections of our true nature, as is sexual orgasm.

How much more real does it get?

These things are sacred, not at all trite. They are just taken for granted because there must be something more to all of this!

Sorry - this is it.

 

 

 

Steve f, you need to wake up.

If I provide alternative perspectives that means I'm asleep?

You're probably right about that - perhaps I'll wake up one day, perhaps not.

But if I'm asleep, why do I always feel so tired?

 

You cannot even conceive of a sacred relationship anymore.

All relationships are sacred - it doesn't need to have anything to do with the thoughts and concepts that you gratuitously call "spiritual" and "transcendant". Relationships can remain sacred with or without the presence of money. Money only controls you if you let it.

 

 

 

Who says it's OK? Haven't you been paying attention to what the profit motive does to health care in USA? The profit motive has utterly decimated the quality of our health care here in USA.

 

You do -

It is OK to charge for teaching if:

.....

3. Your teaching aims to support life in some way, such as healing, or survival and similar knowledge.

FWIW - I know better than most what the profit motive has done to American healthcare and I agree with you 100% that it's not ok as evidenced by most earlier post.