What is so "special" about full lotus?

[Starjumper]

The thing that is so special about full lotus is it's prefered by people who don't know any better way to accomplish the same energy task more efficiently.

Edited May 20, 2018 by Starjumper

[ion]

3 hours ago, Starjumper said:

The thing that is so special about full lotus is it's prefered by people who don't know any better way to accomplish the same energy task more efficiently.

This seems a little bit of a ridiculous statement to me.

 

Many of the people here that sit in the lotus ALSO have another practice.

 

But more so, who here among us that sits in the lotus just decided before they started their practice that they would just sit in the lotus first off without trying anything else?

 

Probably no one has ONLY ever sat in the lotus.

 

Contrary to your view, to see someone sitting in the lotus position does not in anyway imply that the person sitting has a narrow mind.

 

In fact if you see someone sitting in the lotus you can bet that it took them a long time, practice and discipline.

 

If you see someone in the lotus you can almost bet your life that they started out with at least one other posture for probablly more than a year.

 

So it seems to me that the opposite of what you are saying is true, that the person in the lotus likely has worked at and chosen the lotus after using other techniques.

 

Edit- @Starjumper

 

Have you ever practiced until you could sit in the lotus position comfortably and then let it become your daily practice for a month to a year or more?

 

I'm wondering how it is you know that it is not so effective to sit in the lotus compared to other techniques, and where your insight comes from?

Edited May 20, 2018 by ion

[Starjumper]

Sure, people can sit in full lotus and have other techniques too.  I was just commenting on the specialness of it.  I'ts not so special. like i said, it only seems special to wankers.

 

41 minutes ago, ion said:

I'm wondering how it is you know that it is not so effective to sit in the lotus compared to other techniques, and where your insight comes from?

 

Because I've been doing rather secret energy work for decades and I know energy.  I know what energy task it is that full lotus does and I know other techniques which do the same energy task just as or more efficiently, powerfully, faster.

 

The way it works in alchemy is as follows.  1) Feeling energy,  2) Controlling energy,  3) Knowing energy.

 

Results depend on the person and the practice they do, which is usually wimpy.

 

• Feeling energy - from right away to several years to feel it in any part of body.
• Controlling energy - from a year to 5 years or much more.
• Knowing energy - 20 to 30 years or never.

Edited May 20, 2018 by Starjumper

[Starjumper]

17 minutes ago, GSmaster said:

always meditate sitting on top of a huge mountain in full lotus. I breathe in fresh mountain air and enjoy scenery free of any human beings.

 

Sounds kind of like my place, the winds can get ferocious up on the ridge tops and mountain tops here though.  If that doesn't distract you then nothing will.

[ion]

38 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

Sure, people can sit in full lotus and have other techniques too.  I was just commenting on the specialness of it.  I'ts not so special. like i said, it only seems special to wankers.

 

 

Because I've been doing rather secret energy work for decades and I know energy.  I know what energy task it is that full lotus does and I know other techniques which do the same energy task just as or more efficiently, powerfully, faster.

 

The way it works in alchemy is as follows.  1) Feeling energy,  2) Controlling energy,  3) Knowing energy.

 

Results depend on the person and the practice they do, which is usually wimpy.

 

• Feeling energy - from right away to several years to feel it in any part of body.
• Controlling energy - from a year to 5 years or much more.
• Knowing energy - 20 to 30 years or never.

So you are backing up your statement with "I know because I know"

 

And you avoided the question as to wether or not you've practiced and disciplined yourself enough to sit in the lotus comfortably, and then practiced it daily for a year or more.

 

Instead you say you've been practicing a deeply esoteric method, one I gather you can not discuss or make reference to, so instead you talk Shit and call people who have a disciplined practice "wankers" offering no references to back up your opinion.

 

I have no respect for people that say "you guys all suck because what I do is better, but what I do is an ancient secret  can't talk about. You'll just have to take my word that,my ways are superior, even though I should not even comment if I'm not going to actually offer a reputable resource as evidence and example of my lofty claim". Paraphrase.

[Starjumper]

1 hour ago, ion said:

So you are backing up your statement with "I know because I know"

 

And you avoided the question as to wether or not you've practiced and disciplined yourself enough to sit in the lotus comfortably, and then practiced it daily for a year or more.

 

Instead you say you've been practicing a deeply esoteric method, one I gather you can not discuss or make reference to, so instead you talk Shit and call people who have a disciplined practice "wankers" offering no references to back up your opinion.

 

I see you're very observant, good for you!

 

Quote

I have no respect for people that say "you guys all suck because what I do is better, but what I do is an ancient secret  can't talk about. You'll just have to take my word that,my ways are superior, even though I should not even comment if I'm not going to actually offer a reputable resource as evidence and example of my lofty claim". Paraphrase.

 

When I want respect I'll tell you, don't hold your breath.  In fact you are incorrect about me describing my practice.  There are several long threads here about just that, plus other gems I've hidden here and there.

 

Do you really expect me to repeat myself for you?  Why, because you're so special, like your full lotus practice is?

Edited May 20, 2018 by Starjumper

[ion]

No of course I wouldn't ask you to ad any original ideas to the thread.

 

I should see that you are a master by the pic in your avatar, and by the way when GSmaster gave a vague/generic description of a setting where he practices your ego immediately associated with self and what belongs to self.

 

I should have just assumed that your arrogant remarks were backed up somewhere in your thousands of posts, searched them all out somewhere on this site, read everything you said and then commented.

 

That is sarcasm btw, what follows is not.

 

 

I have a lot of respect for the people who've made this site with their contributions. Respect has never been given to anyone anywhere by asking for it.

 

Something I have not noticed is people clambering around you respecting you like the (self proclaimed) master that you claim to be.

 

Nothing you've shown deserves respect, and nothing you've claimed is respectable, nor do you speak to others with respect, and you are disrespectful to an age old vehicle that most practitioners of which bow to.

 

Your behavior doesn't live up to the self image you're promoting. Notice I did not call it the reputation you are known for?

 

Yes you would have to ask for respect like a beggar begging because you sure have not earned it.

 

Take care buddy.

 

 

Edited May 20, 2018 by ion

[Starjumper]

Don't grow up, we like you just the way you are.

[Mark Foote]

I write on Dao Bums for myself--to offer something that is, at least to some degree, new to myself.  The voice that I find in dialogue with other "bums" here on the site is generally more conversational than the voice that I find writing by myself, and that's helpful too.

 

Gautama the Buddha described the intent concentration on in-breathing and out-breathing as something peaceful in itself, and a pleasant way of living too.  He made this recommendation to the monks as an alternative to the meditation on the unlovely, which he had been teaching, and which resulted in the suicide of scores of monks. 

 

The moral of the story for me is, it doesn't have to be about enlightenment.  It doesn't have to be about attainment, and methods to achieve something.

 

I'm not disagreeing with Starjumper.  Here's are the overview descriptions of the last three stages in the chapter "Stages of Development" from Cheng Man-Ching's "Thirteen Chapters" (the Wile translation, pg 56-58):

 

1)  Listening to energy

 

2)  Interpreting energy

 

3)  Perfect clarity

 

Similar in some respects to something Gautama mentioned in one of his lectures, about the stages of the outside, the inside, and the beautiful--not sure I quite have that right, memory fails and I'm not going to find the quote right now.

 

However, the first stage in Cheng Man-Ching's description was relaxation, shoulders to hands, hips to feet, and sacrum to the crown of the head; the second was moving chi along the same lines.  None of it could be forced, especially not chi from the sacrum to the crown of the head. 

 

That's about Tai Chi, but as far as I'm concerned it's about sitting the lotus too, or any form that depends on relaxation and sink.  Not so much the attainment, all about relaxation and sink as the breath moves in, as the breath moves out.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 20, 2018 by Mark Foote

[silent thunder]

when one who is awake, sits...

 

i wonder. 

 

is it to achieve something?

 

or is it simply sitting?  a being at rest?

[Mark Foote]

15 minutes ago, GSmaster said:

 

The thing is, some people just sit in lotus and hope to attain something. "I will sit one year every day for few hours in full lotus"

 

If it would be that simple to attain, everybody on earth would be a boddhissatvas or godly beings.

 

Along those lines (from AN III 303, Pali Text Society edition pg 218):

 

... Then another monk addressed the Blessed One, "I, too, develop mindfulness of death." ... "I think, 'O, that I might live for the interval that it takes to breathe out after breathing in, or to breathe in after breathing out, that I might attend to the Blessed One's instructions. I would have accomplished a great deal.' This is how I develop mindfulness of death."

 

When this was said, the Blessed One addressed the monks. "Whoever develops mindfulness of death, thinking, 'O, that I might live for a day & night... for a day... for the interval that it takes to eat a meal... for the interval that it takes to swallow having chewed up four morsels of food, that I might attend to the Blessed One's instructions. I would have accomplished a great deal' — they are said to dwell heedlessly. They develop mindfulness of death slowly for the sake of ending the effluents.

 

"But whoever develops mindfulness of death, thinking, 'O, that I might live for the interval that it takes to swallow having chewed up one morsel of food... for the interval that it takes to breathe out after breathing in, or to breathe in after breathing out, that I might attend to the Blessed One's instructions. I would have accomplished a great deal' — they are said to dwell heedfully. They develop mindfulness of death acutely for the sake of ending the effluents.

 

"Therefore you should train yourselves: 'We will dwell heedfully. We will develop mindfulness of death acutely for the sake of ending the effluents.' That is how you should train yourselves."

 

Interesting that he offers both one swallow and one breath in or out--similar to his saying he returned to "that first characteristic of concentration in which I ever abide" (presumably "making self-surrender the object of thought") after he lectured,  two different modalities in the use of the body and lungs.

 

Edited May 20, 2018 by Mark Foote

[Starjumper]

1 hour ago, Mark Foote said:

1)  Listening to energy

 

2)  Interpreting energy

 

3)  Perfect clarity

 

Yes!  I had written that the three steps are feeling, controlling, and knowing energy.  I think a good case can be made that they are referring to the same thing.

 

Listening energy (listening to energy) is the same as feeling energy (I just prefer plain english sometimes)

 

Interpreting energy could be the same as controlling energy, in the book I read the word contolling was used.

 

Perfect clarity I think is a bit of a grandiose way of saying knowing energy, since the subject is regarding energy.

[Starjumper]

On 5/20/2018 at 1:09 PM, ion said:

I should see that you are a master by the pic in your avatar, and by the way when GSmaster gave a vague/generic description of a setting where he practices your ego immediately associated with self and what belongs to self.

 

OH sheet!  I forgot to kill my 'self',  Damn, making a note here that I need to kill my self.  Well, kill my false self, but not my true self, right?  YAhahaha, friggin' Buddhists.

 

On 5/20/2018 at 1:09 PM, ion said:

Something I have not noticed is people clambering around you respecting you like the (self proclaimed) master that you claim to be.

 

Well actually I'm fairly certain that I never proclaimed myself to be a master even once on this forum.  I've proclaimed myself to be a few other things, like 'bozo', and naive, and a few other things.  It's nice though, that you subconsciously recognized me as a master, thank you for that and all the respect that it entails.  Me, being a Taoist and stuff, I do believe that mastery is in the eye of the beholder, and you are quite some unconscious beholder alright.  On the other hand, consciously, you wouldn't recognize a true master even if one punched you in the nose.

 

I on the other hand, have recognized a master each time one has punched me in the nose.

 

YAhahaha, have a nice ass day   

Edited May 23, 2018 by Starjumper

[ion]

I'd say that anyone who claims that the only reason anyone practices the lotus, which implies many past masters, is an ignorant walker that does not know better is implying they know something that all these practitioners, including all the masters past and present don't know.

 

So yes you implied that you are the knower of a deep knowledge that you called "esoretic" and your implication is equal to boasting. And by being above the masters is not saying you have attained mastery?

 

Ineresting?

 

You may be a Daoist but it's clear that you don't know the Dao. Knowers of the way practice humility and appear humble, because they are humble not just pretending to be.

 

What I beheld in you was neither mastery, nor simplicity; not the Dao.

 

That's the final communication on the subject

 

Take Care

Edited May 24, 2018 by ion

[Starjumper]

21 minutes ago, ion said:

I'd say that anyone who claims that the only reason anyone practices the lotus, which implies many past masters, is an ignorant walker that does not know better is implying they know something that all these practitioners, including all the masters past and present don't know.

 

So yes you implied that you are the knower of a deep knowledge that you called "esoretic" and your implication is equal to boasting. And by being above the masters is not saying you have attained mastery?

 

Ineresting?

 

You may be a Daoist but it's clear that you don't know the Dao. Knowers of the way practice humility and appear humble, because they are humble not just pretending to be.

 

What I beheld in you was neither mastery, nor simplicity; not the Dao.

 

That's the final communication on the subject

 

Take Care

 

OK, I'll take care.  I'll give you a little hint here though, sometimes people are different in real life than they are on forums.  

 

Well ... you know there are masters of fast paths and masters of slow paths, and there are adepts of fast paths that get to home base before masters of slow paths do.  I'm sure that sitting full lotus for hours a day for many years will make a person a master of sitting full lotus, there's no doubt about it, I mean, how difficult could it be to just sit?  You could chew bubble gum for years and become a master of chewing bubble gum, but it won't make you a wizard.  For me, I just happen to like energy cultivation work of the powerful kind.  Most people don't like it though, so you do your full lotus and I'll do my stuff, and never the twain shall meet..

Edited May 24, 2018 by Starjumper

[Mudfoot]

6 hours ago, ion said:

 

So yes you implied that you are the knower of a deep knowledge that you called "esoretic" and your implication is equal to boasting. 

Actually, on TDB knowers of esoteric knowledge are everywhere. 

That's why we are here, that is the fruit of proper practice. 

 

Unfortunately, that which is important secret shit for me, is just shit for someone else. 

 

So we disagree about most things. 

Edited May 24, 2018 by Mudfoot
Added sentence

[ion]

6 hours ago, Mudfoot said:

Actually, on TDB knowers of esoteric knowledge are everywhere. 

That's why we are here, that is the fruit of proper practice. 

 

Unfortunately, that which is important secret shit for me, is just shit for someone else. 

 

So we disagree about most things. 

That's not truly esoteric tan, I'm sorry and your taking the term  "esoteric" out of the framework it was used in which was "all of them wankers who does the lotus doesn't know what I know" paraphrase

 

It would be different (but equally stupid according to the way of the Dao )to assert you are the keeper of great secrets in to a different framework that doesn't place you higher than 10,000 masters past present and future.

[Starjumper]

34 minutes ago, ion said:

That's not truly esoteric tan, I'm sorry and your taking the term  "esoteric" out of the framework it was used in which was "all of them wankers who does the lotus doesn't know what I know" paraphrase

 

It would be different (but equally stupid according to the way of the Dao )to assert you are the keeper of great secrets in to a different framework that doesn't place you higher than 10,000 masters past present and future.

 

Eagle Claw of the jungle eagle - the Harpy Eagle

 

 Knowing how to work with energy in your body isn't esoteric, it's an natural byproduct of practicing systems of cultivation which contain many methods to work with energy.  On the other hand, the energy work done by full lotus is wimpy at best, and it's only one technique.  It's a real slow road to hell and back.  How can someone gain the vast perspective that is useful in energy cultivation by practicing just one wimpy technique?

 

I mean, in their ignorance of energy work that they don't even specify a hand position.  What hand position do you prefer?  Sticking der index finger in der nose?  Or is that two index fingers stuck in both nostrils, which would result in mouth breathing and drooling?

Edited May 24, 2018 by Starjumper

[Mudfoot]

28 minutes ago, ion said:

That's not truly esoteric tan, I'm sorry and your taking the term  "esoteric" out of the framework it was used in which was "all of them wankers who does the lotus doesn't know what I know" paraphrase

 

Yes. Doesn't that fit with the explanation below? 

 

[Mudfoot]

23 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

 

What hand position do you prefer?  Sticking der index finger in der nose?  Or is that two index fingers stuck in both nostrils, which would result in mouth breathing and drooling?

WHAT! 

Are you insulting the mighty traditional one finger (in the nose) chan mudra? 

 

[ilumairen]

Some find value in sitting full lotus; some don't. 

 

Why would it matter if someone doesn't find value in what one individual personally does, unless the person is unsure of the value they themselves have found?

 

Self assuredness and self trust don't require outside assurances and agreement. 

[Mudfoot]

So we can discuss:

 

Who are comprehending, and who are just parrotting stuff they copied from a website 😁

[Mark Foote]

I've been rewriting and amplifying on my response to your question, ion, working on a post for my own blog--here's what I've got, so far (& maybe this is it!):

 

"Is the suffocation response something you experience while sitting?"

 

 It’s something I experience every sitting, along with the anxiety connected with the precariousness of posture.  

 

The precariousness for me is mostly about support for the lumbar curve, from the middle lumber vertebrae to the sacrum.  That's why my description of anatomy starts with the ligaments from the pelvis to the fourth and fifth lumbar vertebrae, and focuses on the mechanisms by which the fascia behind the lower back is displaced in support of the lumbar spine.  

 

My sitting is largely a matter of realizing a spontaneous breath in the midst of activity that initiates or sustains support in the lower back.  I don't know about anybody else, but for me that requires a recognition that I am staying out of suffocation, while relinquishing control of the precariousness of posture.

 

I know that the alignment of the spine affects my ability to feel.  The spaces between the vertebrae allow the nerves that exit the spine to relay feeling from the various parts of the body to the brain, in a dynamic that changes as the alignment of the spine changes.  The more I discover relaxation in the face of the suffocation response and calm in the face of the precariousness of posture, the more the things that come forward for me in sitting reflect a timely ability to feel. 

 

Lately I tend to emphasize the relaxation of activity when I experience discomfort, and the calming of the senses that coordinate the placement of awareness when I experience unhappiness.  That I can experience ease and not experience happiness, I think is an oddity of human nature.

 

On the other side of the suffocation response, comes ease and the experience of the senses that go together to make up the feeling of place in awareness.  On the other side of the anxiety associated with precariousness comes a detachment from the placement of awareness, and happiness associated with a balanced ability to feel. 

 

Cheng Man-Ching described three “stages of development” in the art of Tai Chi:

 

1)     Relaxation from the shoulders to the wrists, from the hip joint to the heels, and from the sacrum to the headtop;

 

2)     Sinking the ch’i to the tan t’ien, the ch’i reaches the arms and legs, and the ch’i moves through the sacrum to the top of the head;

 

3)     listening to or feeling (ligamentous) strength, comprehension of (ligamentous strength), and perfect clarity (“spiritual power, or  power without physical force”).

 

(Cheng Tzu’s Thirteen Treatises on T’ai Chi Ch’uan, by Professor Cheng Man Ch’ing, translated by Benjamin Pang Jeng Lo and Martin Inn, pg 75-81, ©1985 by Juliana T. Cheng;  except Part 3, “perfect clarity” from "Master Cheng's Thirteen Chapters on T'ai-Chi Ch'uan", Cheng Man-Ching trans. Douglas Wile, pg. 53)

 

Again,  relaxation through the suffocation response yields ease and the experience of the senses that go together to make up the feeling of place in awareness.  That is to say, complete relaxation (1, above) brings out the feeling of place in awareness, and allows the necessity of breath to shift the placement of awareness to generate activity that displaces fascia behind the sacrum and the spine (2, above).

 

Distinguishing ligamentous strength (as in 3, above) depends on the experience of reciprocal activity and stretch in the muscles and ligaments in response to the placement of awareness in the movement of breath.  To me, comprehension of such strength is the sign of the concentration, as voluntary activity in the movement of breath is surrendered.  I would say that “perfect clarity” refers to the surrender of action in the movement of breath, the cessation of the utilization of intent to act but not necessarily the cessation of action.  Cheng Man-ching describes it this way:

 

“The ch’i can mobilize the body, but you need not will the ch’i in order to move it.  The spirit can carry the ch’i with it.” 

 

(Cheng Tzu’s Thirteen Treatises on T’ai Chi Ch’uan, by Professor Cheng Man Ch’ing, translated by Benjamin Pang Jeng Lo and Martin Inn, pg 80, ©1985 by Juliana T. Cheng)

 

 

Edited May 24, 2018 by Mark Foote

[Starjumper]

8 hours ago, Mudfoot said:

9 hours ago, Starjumper said:

 

What hand position do you prefer?  Sticking der index finger in der nose?  Or is that two index fingers stuck in both nostrils, which would result in mouth breathing and drooling?

WHAT! 

Are you insulting the mighty traditional one finger (in the nose) chan mudra? 

 

Ah the Chan Mudra, I didn't know it had a name.  After researching it I discovered there are two ways to do it, and it explains the feeling of suffocation when the mouth is closed.  The standard way is with right index finger in right nostril and left in left, but the secret esoteric way is with left finger in right nostril and right in left.  One MUST be sitting full lotus to make it effective.  The cross over technique makes your energy run backwards and result in instant oldfartdom and then snuffing it.  (Not like snorting snuff)  Excellent for those Buddhists who are just waiting for the funeral pyre ... to end their suffering ... I mean the suffering of the 'self', not them.

Edited May 24, 2018 by Starjumper

[Starjumper]

Once Chen Man Ching commented on people who sit full lotus by making a wisecrack: "Watcha gonna do if someone comes along and knocks you off your cushion?"  Observing the fact that it's a much more precarious position to be in for people who have narrow butts; which explains why so many Western buddhists have such wide butts, it's a simple matter of stability.  Helps keep people from tipping over.

Edited May 25, 2018 by Starjumper