Taoist Science of Falling in Love

[voidisyinyang]

sounds like you need this!

 

http://xtrememind.com/seductionscience2007.htm

 

Drew,

 

Thanks again for sharing. Real intimacy, romantic love, to me, entails a healthy relationship. Your talking about Orgasm at a Distance, sexual energy and opening your heart. My questions is how these operate in a real relationship; how do you know if these subjective or objective experiences truly translate into falling in love and sustaining a that love if you've been single and abstinent for the last ten years?

[Stigweard]

[matt007]

sounds like you need this!

 

http://xtrememind.com/seductionscience2007.htm

 

Seriously?

 

When I said "My questions is how these operate in a real relationship; how do you know if these subjective or objective experiences truly translate into falling in love and sustaining a that love if you've been single and abstinent for the last ten years?" I was addressing the question to you! Not myself.

 

I've been married and divorced and have had and continue to have relationships with women. I certainly don't need 'xtrememind,' who by the way is probably the biggest loser on the fucking planet, are fucking kidding me.

 

Drew, I tried to be polite because this is a civil forum, but dude. Get a clue and stop living in a fantasy world where you 'give orgasms to people' who are just randomly passing you by on the street. Dude, these people, that you are giving orgasms to, they are looking at you like your fucking insane. That's not pleasure on their faces it's, "I'm going to smile at this guy staring at me and try not to look awkward about the fact that he is in full lotus on the fucking subway."

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

You hit on a big one Scotty. Having a fucking job is key.

 

 

 

I've never had a fucking job, I've just had jobs that don't include fucking, unless of course you include the times I've been fucked over...but a fucking job, yeah that sounds really good...

Edited October 26, 2009 by TheSongsofDistantEarth

[Stigweard]

Ok chaps we do have a "no excessive swearing policy" in effect.

 

http://www.thetaobums.com/Moderation-Guidelines-t11707.html

 

Please keep this in mind.

 

<-- The Mod Squad -->

[voidisyinyang]

I was being funny! haha.

 

Seriously?

 

When I said "My questions is how these operate in a real relationship; how do you know if these subjective or objective experiences truly translate into falling in love and sustaining a that love if you've been single and abstinent for the last ten years?" I was addressing the question to you! Not myself.

 

I've been married and divorced and have had and continue to have relationships with women. I certainly don't need 'xtrememind,' who by the way is probably the biggest loser on the fucking planet, are fucking kidding me.

 

Drew, I tried to be polite because this is a civil forum, but dude. Get a clue and stop living in a fantasy world where you 'give orgasms to people' who are just randomly passing you by on the street. Dude, these people, that you are giving orgasms to, they are looking at you like your fucking insane. That's not pleasure on their faces it's, "I'm going to smile at this guy staring at me and try not to look awkward about the fact that he is in full lotus on the fucking subway."

[matt007]

[Aetherous]

The big question is, does money and security, the two things guys perceive women as wanting the most in a relationship, equal love? Maybe. I have a good job, but I live in a big city and having a good job is not a unique thing in the city. If I was a successful lawyer in a small town would I be getting a lot of female attention and interest? Probably. But in a big city, there are a lot of successful lawyers and a lot more competition.

 

Falling in love has nothing to do with attracting a lot of female attention and interest. If that is what you're interested in, then the link that Drew gave should "work".

 

My view is that providing security for others is love being expressed through action. We take it for granted because we live in such comfortable times, but it's a very loving act to stop someone from starving to death, or from freezing in the cold of night. How much would it mean if our lives were actually on the line? Then, that meal is priceless, and that warm blanket is truly the greatest thing in the world. So on a deep level, providing security is worth more than anything.

 

I wasn't talking about being rich...but more so about being in control of your own life, enough to help others be in control of their own.

 

Anyway there's probably a lot more to it than this. I'm pretty young and not in love, so I shouldn't even be talking.

[matt007]

Okay, I like where this is going, so I can let it go for today and feel a little more satisfied. I didn't mean for this to turn into a private therapy session, but maybe that's a good thing too. It would be great to see a some of you loosen up and have a co-creative discussion. I felt like I had to lead the thread at first, but if this is a topic close to your heart, please feel free to take the rains and I really do look forward to what people have to say on the matter.

 

So far I think Stigward has cut to the core of the issue. It's about fulfilling yourself first and then real love can grow as you begin to resonate that love from the center of your own being. If I look back at my relationships. I have always attracted what I wanted and what I was resonating. If I was resonating empty sex, that's what I got. If I was resonating love, well there appeared feelings of love. I'm not saying that you can simply will yourself to resonate something, it's a process and a journey. From emptyness, th void springs new life.

[matt007]

Falling in love has nothing to do with attracting a lot of female attention and interest. If that is what you're interested in, then the link that Drew gave should "work".

 

My view is that providing security for others is love being expressed through action. We take it for granted because we live in such comfortable times, but it's a very loving act to stop someone from starving to death, or from freezing in the cold of night. How much would it mean if our lives were actually on the line? Then, that meal is priceless, and that warm blanket is truly the greatest thing in the world. So on a deep level, providing security is worth more than anything.

 

I wasn't talking about being rich...but more so about being in control of your own life, enough to help others be in control of their own.

 

Anyway there's probably a lot more to it than this. I'm pretty young and not in love, so I shouldn't even be talking.

Well thanks for participating. Not that I'm that old, but I do know that what you are taking about is compassionate love, not romantic love (not that you were saying otherwise). They both go together and real relationships tend to be sustained by compassionate love, not romantic love, which tends to be 'as perennial as the grass.' From a famous quote from Max Ehrmann, I think:

 

"Go placidly amid the noise and the haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence. As far as possible without surrender, be on good terms with all persons. Speak your truth quietly and clearly, and listen to others, even the dull and ignorant; they too have their story. Be yourself. Especially do not feign affection. Neither be cynical about love - for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment it is as perennial as the grass. Take kindly the counsel of the years, gracefully surrendering the things of youth. Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune. But do not distress yourself with imaginings. Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness. Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should. Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labours and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul. With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world."

 

The bottom line here is that romantic love is a selfish love, not in a bad way; but a selfish love that can transform into real compassionate love. It's an aspect of the deeper love that is the totality, but not the whole as some in our western culture would want you to believe. It's a fine thing never the less.

[Birch]

Oh cool thread!

 

I was just over in Mal`s forum blabbing on about it;-)

 

I'm tending to want to agree with Stigweard because of the way I presently feel as far as a particular person is concerned;-) And, as they say, I'd rather not "blow it" but I'm finding it pretty painful - perhaps not to KG extremes but some days I find myself going "WTF?? I was happy before I met this guy."

 

There's a definite component in there that I don't feel is especially pleasant. Likely why I've been avoiding it all this time;-) A break of 8 years at least (I stopped counting).

 

So my request would be for ways to balance yourself out when in the midst of it. Not how to get into it;-) I've been doing MCO a lot more just because it can get so annoying!

 

I also have a job, a house and a social life and I'd like to keep them in good shape.

 

Thanks!

[~jK~]

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

 

The second question is, does having your pick of attractive women because you have money, status, influence make it easier to fall in love? Maybe, maybe not. There are lot's of unhappy rich people surrounded by people who want something from them.

 

 

 

Not. When your at a buffet and it's all you can eat, that's what you do, eat all you can and try all the dishes. It's never ending, it doesn't equal love. Actually you would have been better off not having had all the chances and simply finding one person...... but alas..... so many pretty girls.... and so many chances..... yet so little love. Even when they truly love you that love becomes meaningless due to it now having become common place.

 

Money and security doesn't equal love, but then again it does sometimes. It simply the conditioning in society through the media and culture that women react to, in the same way men do in fact. It's not their fault. If you can combine the alpha male and Mr success they will fall all over you. Sad but true. The truly sad thing is you won't find love by having changed yourself to be more attractive to women. You'll get a lot of sex that's for sure .... but there will be no depth, why would there be when ..... here comes another pretty one.... she must be 'the one'.

 

The only 'one' there is, is 'the one that gets away'. She was/is the one because she got away, had you kept her/him reality would have reared it's ugly head, and she/he would have ceased to be 'the one' just like all the others did. The only 'perfect' love you can ever really have is the love you never had and/or lost or love developed withing yourself... cos it's all you anyway, they were only ever mirrors of yourself, a self that you had lost or ignored. Unconditional love, that's the key, but seriously hard to really develop.

[Marblehead]

My view is that providing security for others is love being expressed through action. We take it for granted because we live in such comfortable times,

 

I think that this is an important concept when speaking to the subject of a relationship between people. And this doesn't mean just physical and monetary security but it also includes psychological security. We offer the other something solid to hold to.

 

Peace & Love!

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

As i read the various posts in this thread i see a lot of subjective descriptions regarding differing 'desirabilities' people attach to the concept of 'Love', but not so much on the fundamental process that sets-up the Energetic relationship of 'Love'..

 

Each of us have a 'symphony' of energies that form our unique energetic signatures.. as we are able to identify these energies and their relationships to the 'symphony/signature', we can also sense the relationships between the signatures and the choices we make in our lives.. "Love', as i understand it, is a description of a condition where the energies between two unique manifestations resonates in coherence and culminates in entrainment.. coherence and entrainment results in an excess of energy as the the process requires less energy for the same result.. this excess energy floods the physical system with that 'special feeling' we call 'Love'.. it can happen with a favorite food, i 'love' the taste of a fresh ripe peach.. where the taste sets the energies in a coherent pattern and the excess floods the senses, this familiar and desirable feeling is then associated with the condition we call 'Love'.. two people meet and their energies find resonance, coherence, and occasionally, entrainment.. they feel the 'Love'.. Life, compassion, relationship, will all find energetic relationships where the resonance inspires the feeling of 'Love' as excess energy enegizes the senses and the experiencer expresses their 'Love' for this or that..

 

Once i became aware of this fundamental process, the subjectivity of describing the qualities of Love began to make sense.. more importantly, i began to notice how intentions and attentions affected my own unique 'symphony/signature'.. i began to sense much more deeply the nuances of relationships, whether with people of the environment as a symbiotic process of existence.. Love became a dynamic activity, an energetic dance as i listend to symphonies merging into a grand Cosmic Orchestra..

 

Ooops, sorry, i think i'm rambling.. Be well..

[C T]

The science of understanding love is like trying to understand the essence of a flower by picking off and examining each and every single petal of this flower in an attempt to conclusively understand the *big picture*. One may succeed after much investigation, but at what price?

 

The art of understanding love is to live it, with all its fragrance, joy, beauty, humility, serenity, affection, intimacy and so on and so on, to immerse oneself in its goodness, and, (this is the tricky part), to have a heart that is prepared to accept that without thorns, there may never be roses...

 

For me, acceptance is the foundation for growing in love. It is the one quality that binds all the other ingredients, the Nourisher. Without this fundamental quality, all the other requirements, like trust, respect, understanding, and involvement, by themselves, would have a harder time to distill within the relationship. Acceptance is like the catalyst, the enzyme, that enables the joyous and gradual discovery and growth of all these other crucial sub-qualities.

 

This is my personal experience. Without it, the relationship i have with my partner, who is 27 years younger than me, would not have lasted a week. We have been together 2 years, and each day has some adventure in it, if i choose to look with eyes of wonder.

 

Be well...

Edited October 27, 2009 by CowTao

[Mal]

I was hoping more would weigh in on this topic as well

 

 

I'm growing impatient with this forum; feels like I'm talking to myself,

 

this isn't live chat

 

If I look back at my relationships. I have always attracted what I wanted and what I was resonating. If I was resonating empty sex, that's what I got. If I was resonating love, well there appeared feelings of love. I'm not saying that you can simply will yourself to resonate something, it's a process and a journey.

 

Are you sure you can't just will yourself to resonate? You can always get what you want.... the tricky part is wanting what you need

[freeform]

How to fall in love.

 

The clue is there already!

 

....falling in love....

 

when you fall physically, you have no control... falling in love is losing control...

 

contriving a 'falling in love' situation... well I'm sure you get the irony.

 

Your attempt to control the responses to this thread mirrors directly your attempt to control falling in love.

 

Falling in love is much much simpler than what you're doing - because it's less about doing and more about letting go.

 

There is an adolescent kind of love that is actually very very easy create. It just requires a small spark of emotion, that's not allowed to 'ground' and is cycled on and on through your system, through your thoughts and behaviour.

 

Teenage girls fall in love easily. They see some pop star on tv, daydream about them, write their name in fun colours, think about them, cover their walls with their photos, read about them on twitter, discuss them with their friends, listen to their songs, read their interviews etc.

 

Is that what you want? Then do it. If you like someone, hold that feeling in, don't let it go, then surround your inner and outer life with their 'image' (thoughts about them) - then cycle that feeling, saturating all your thoughts and sensations with that feeling.

 

Then faint with over-excitement

 

The only thing that can destroy that kind of obsessive love is reality... because you're in love with a thought, an image - not with the actual person.

 

If you want a more mature kind of romantic love, then listen to that clue - fall. Become vulnerable. Open up. Let go.

[longrhythm]

I love this answer Freeform. But I do think no matter how mature the type of romantic love, it has something to do with ungrounded energy. I've had relationships where I was VERY vulnerable, but that only fueled the spark of emotion that cycled through my system, thoughts and behavior, and in many cases sent more and more sparks the same route.

 

It's such a beautiful way to look at it though, because in hindsight, every relationship I've ended has had a particular energetic pathway in my body that in time became obvious that it was not compatible with the pathways that promote my healthiest functioning. Likely because of the lack of ground. But jeez man, excellent metaphor!

 

How to fall in love.

 

The clue is there already!

 

....falling in love....

 

when you fall physically, you have no control... falling in love is losing control...

 

contriving a 'falling in love' situation... well I'm sure you get the irony.

 

Your attempt to control the responses to this thread mirrors directly your attempt to control falling in love.

 

Falling in love is much much simpler than what you're doing - because it's less about doing and more about letting go.

 

There is an adolescent kind of love that is actually very very easy create. It just requires a small spark of emotion, that's not allowed to 'ground' and is cycled on and on through your system, through your thoughts and behaviour.

 

Teenage girls fall in love easily. They see some pop star on tv, daydream about them, write their name in fun colours, think about them, cover their walls with their photos, read about them on twitter, discuss them with their friends, listen to their songs, read their interviews etc.

 

Is that what you want? Then do it. If you like someone, hold that feeling in, don't let it go, then surround your inner and outer life with their 'image' (thoughts about them) - then cycle that feeling, saturating all your thoughts and sensations with that feeling.

 

Then faint with over-excitement

 

The only thing that can destroy that kind of obsessive love is reality... because you're in love with a thought, an image - not with the actual person.

 

If you want a more mature kind of romantic love, then listen to that clue - fall. Become vulnerable. Open up. Let go.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

Sometimes, usually more than less, Love emerges as 'mind-play'.. my understanding of Love' is 'Listening'.. hear and experience what is happening, still the mind so that prejudices and preferences from past experiences don't disguise the current experience.. let the 'monkey-mind' go, just feel the energies.. then, if the resonance is there, choose the actions that enhance the resonance.. listen!!, the Clarity of a stilled mind reveals the 'Tao' of the moment.. with pure Clarity there is only one choice, accept what 'is', or reject it..

 

From some of my 'writings'... The two merge as One, a higher being.. each filling the voids in the other's soul, compleatness.. the Universe unfolds more clearly for the higher being, no 'self' but the other..

 

There is no 'me', only she..

i flow through her

and she through me..

No discerning who is who

who is me

and who is you

With love there's no way to tell

Is it heaven, or is it hell

Love really doesn't care

i am she and she is me

and WE are everywhere..

 

Be well..

 

Be well..

[Aetherous]

But I do think no matter how mature the type of romantic love, it has something to do with ungrounded energy.

 

It's not good to limit your experience to a theory.

 

I think it's possible to have clarity, and be loving.

[longrhythm]

Not limited to a theory, but to past experience. And of course ideally not limited but educated by. It's generally easy for me to have clarity and be loving. But when it comes to romantic love, being in love, feeling passion for a woman, whew. There's almost a spectrum with clarity on one end and passion on the other.

 

 

It's not good to limit your experience to a theory.

 

I think it's possible to have clarity, and be loving.

[voidisyinyang]

http://books.google.com/books?id=o4shm9E99...;q=&f=false

[matt007]

I was having lunch with some colleagues and a women remarked that her friend had fallen in love with her husband because he was a good listener. I think that's really true for women; if the man can really sit and listen to her and actively listen and enjoy what she has to say, that's and big sign that there is real compatibility.

 

Chris Rock say men need three things, food, sex and silence. Fuck me, make me a sandwich and shut the fuck up. I'm paraphrasing, but it seems there is some grain of truth here. One of the hardest things to do in relationship is really sit down and make time to listen to each other on a consistent bases. For me, and probably men and general, listening is one of the hardest activities to really do well in a relationship. They say women utter about 3 times the number of words that men do, on average, in a given day.

 

In response to Kate's post, I think there is an art to successful relationships and I also think that Taoists have an advantage because part of the Tao is being a good listener and understanding that we are connecting to people. If you can develop this skill, I think you will have a lot more balance in your relationships. Women need to respect the silence in men and a man needs to honor a woman's need for authentic communication.

 

Mature Romantic love, I feel, can be a spiritual practice in itself and, if taken seriously and respected as such, can be an incredible tool for personal growth and self realization. It doesn't always to have the the element of 'falling' in love either. It can just be a mature love relationship that you have going. In a way I Think we could even separate romantic or courtly love and the mature love that grows over time in a real relationship. In fact I would even say there is a clear distinction.

 

If you have ever read Robert Johnson's work (anybody?), he talks in great depth about our western culture's obsession with what was originally called courtly love. It is from courtly love, explains Johnson, that our fascination with romantic love and our idealistic views on relationship have evolved.

 

There are three books in particular by Johnson that I want to recommend, We, He and She. He was a student of Carl Jung and is considered on of the most highly respected Jungian Analysts in the field today. He's like 90 something now and still has a regular practice part of the year in San Diego, CA. Anyway, courtly love came about in the middle ages and was associated with an offshoot of Christianity that worshiped the feminine ideal. Courtly love was typically prescribed between a married man, usually a knight, and a lady of the court. It was not a sexual relationship, but one of great romantic passion non the less. The knight, would seek to win favor with the object of his affection, the lady in this case, by winning battles and contests of strength and valor and returning with gifts to offer the lady. These were often the things that still associate with romance today; flowers, silks, poetry and other sentimental offerings. But again, in courtly love, the man and woman were often already married and sex, although often perhaps played upon and symbolically present, never really enters into it.

 

The idea is that the passion between the man in the woman is the driving force, compelling the man to ever greater heights of courage and conquest, mirroring his relationship with God and the divine, acted out through the feminine. Both Johnson and Jung believed, rightly so, that this ideal of courtly love has strongly carried over and is still the basis for relationships in the collective unconscious of the west. Johnson goes on to say that the our misinterpretation, as a culture, of the purpose and underlying spiritual significance of courtly love has been the cause and condition for a lot of suffering and a wrongly directed projection of the courtly ideal, something that was originally a form of spiritual practice, onto marriages and relationships in our western society.

 

The work that Johnson has done is very significant and extensive and I won't attempt to present his work here except to illustrate a few points about the way relationships work in the west and how we suffer more often than not if we hold to these unconscious patterns. I will also make a brief observation about how western and eastern relationships operate.

 

First of all, according to Jung, when men and women 'fall in love' in our culture; this is the unconscious (the true self, not the ego) projects the desire to commune with God onto another human being. For Jung, the soul of a man is the Anima, expressed in the feminine ideal; man's inner female. For the women, it's Animus, the inner man. These hidden aspects of our unconscious self are God in the form of the opposite sex and rooted in our mind stream as archetypal bridges to the divine within. They are very powerful and vary real forces, even though they are manifestations of the mind and the collective unconscious. If we understand their proper place, that they are part of God or part of the divine aspect of our own self nature, we can use them as tools for a truly spiritual life. They become doorways to the sacred aspect of our self and pathways to self realization. If your not familiar with Jungian work, this may sound unfamiliar and contrived, it's not; but you would have to do some research to fully grasp it.

 

The mistake that we in the west make is thinking that this inner projection belongs to our girlfriends and wives in the physical world. We are fooled into believing that the animus and anima are the woman or man in our romantic life. We see the divine, or project the divine ideal, onto ordinary people and that's where things get mixed up. When men fall in love, typically, according to Johnson, if they are not aware of their unconscious, they project it on to the women who then becomes the object of their romantic (from the practice of courtly love) love. "Oh, she is so amazing, there is no one else like her, she is the one." Of course no woman or man can live up to this ideal and as soon as the illusion is broken, usually after they have dated a while or married or whatever, they realize that that special feeling of being with some divine personage has vanished. In it's place is a normal person with problems and faults and pimples just like the rest of us.

 

Someone mentioned earlier that true love is the 'one that got away' and that's exactly the function of romantic love in our culture. You can never hold it in your hands, it will always slip away, like a dream upon waking. Usually, we start looking for someone else. Someone prettier, younger, Mr. Right or Mrs. Right. We don't understand that this holy image that we have fallen in love with is our own soul trying to penetrate our awareness. Most people who have been through divorce a few times or been married for a long time or had long term committed relationships that they were able to sustain and change with, begin to understand this on some level. But some people don't get it and keep going from one relationship to the next trying to catch what they cannot catch. Spiritual practice can also fall into this cycle.

 

The rightful place of the divine is of course in your own heart and must be nurtured and tended to very carefully and lovingly and with the knowledge and the respect to allow it to take its proper place and play its correct role. Until we go within, we cannot know God or find real peace; Jung called this process individuation, the process of separation and then reconnecting the ego to the unconscious with awareness. A very Taoist idea.

 

So what is real love than? Well, according to Johnson, we must, in western culture, enter love with the illusion. For most of us it's the only way to access the divine and eventually understand our relationship to the divine. So we have to operate within the limits of the culture we are born into to eventually break free of them. If we look at the divorce rate in America, it's not too hard to see that this is a very apt and accurate recommendation.

 

Real love is of course based on healthy boundaries, mutual respect and understanding, and of course friendship and attraction. Johnson often likes to contrast our western ideas about love with the eastern way of doing things where marriages are generally more stable and grounded and sex and passion are more aspects or parts of the relationship as a greater whole and not the whole itself. Of course this is a generalization, there are exceptions in every culture and eastern culture is becoming more westernized these days too.

 

So, the desire to fall in love can be and generally is based on false identification. It's a projection and completely mind dependent. There can be a more mature courtship that grows over time and becomes a strong bond that starts with friendship. That's what I'm looking for. This more stable and practical version of the modern love affair is based in reality and leads to a lasting bond and shared admiration where the divine in both partners is honored and acknowledged, but not wrongly projected onto the actual person. Two people who can share this kind of relationship are the luckiest people in the world. Two souls, awake together, supporting the other in a graceful and dignified way and not focused on how they can possess or benefit, but rather on what they can give and learn in return.

 

So my question, again, is what we can do to increase the chances of meeting that special someone to love; From attracting a mate to supporting and sustaining a mature, grounded relationship? I have my own ideas for sure, what are yours?

Edited October 29, 2009 by matt007

[Stigweard]

Do you suppose that you are analyzing love to the point where it can no longer happen? A farmer who incessently plows the field never let's the plants time to grow.