Can lions achieve liberation in a buddhist sence?

[Sunya]

Yes, in a sense, you are actually right. You two are the center of all this stuff (the common denominator) among all this snarky-snipey buddhist arguing drama. No one else. Yet you insist that it's everyone else, not you. In a sense, we are a single entity in many disguises, much like all the obstacles in your karmic path... we are that which has come to awaken you from your egoic slumber so comfortably wrapped in what you believe you are doing with dzogchen, etc... can't you see the thread? Can you not see your own blind spots when they are pointed out to you?

 

You would have much more success in having people hear you out if you take another approach, of humility and self reflection. More people would actually take you seriously. As it is, you two are a terrible advertisement for your spiritual path, being so arrogant, preachy and defensive. Sorry, no equanimity. Nope.

 

lol you're getting very defensive over a joke, but really.. i think you're a bit dense if you can't realize that you're just projecting here. nobody is as arrogant as you, I have done the mathematical formulations, and the numbers don't lie

 

Songs, you don't have to teach me about humility and self-reflection.. you embody those aspects, it's like.. you ARE humility itself, and your arrogant sarcasm and complete lack of contribution is just skillful means to teach us to become humble. Thank you.

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

 

Me too!

 

Take care!

 

 

lol you're getting very defensive over a joke, but really.. i think you're a bit dense if you can't realize that you're just projecting here. nobody is as arrogant as you, I have done the mathematical formulations, and the numbers don't lie

 

Songs, you don't have to teach me about humility and self-reflection.. you embody those aspects, it's like.. you ARE humility itself, and your arrogant sarcasm and complete lack of contribution is just skillful means to teach us to become humble. Thank you.

 

 

You're welcome! What are the calculations to which you refer, young master? May I have a peek at them? Plus, how am I being defensive? I believe I'm being offensive, only! Plus, you always accuse me of never contributing because you only look at threads that have a Vajra post in them, I contribute plenty in other, non Buddhist-dominated threads, if you'd ever care to take a look. You never, ever do! It hurts my feelings! I hate it when you accuse me of non-contributory negligence...hate it hate it hate it!

(But I am glad to finally be recognized as your teacher..but if I'm gonna be your teacher, you two are going to have to clean up your act, bigtime! )

 

PS, I love how we all get to cover everything with these smiley and laughy faces to hide our own sarcaz : It makes it all so happeeee!!

 

Take Care, young Masters!

Edited October 17, 2009 by TheSongsofDistantEarth

[zencave]

 

 

Add grumpiness to a good dose of hypocrisy and it ain't a pretty picture. Thanks Songs, it was a bad day today and you really brought a smile, a big one. Too much of philosophy makes one grumpy, angry and ...I won't dare say gay again

Edited October 17, 2009 by zencave

[ralis]

lol you're getting very defensive over a joke, but really.. i think you're a bit dense if you can't realize that you're just projecting here. nobody is as arrogant as you, I have done the mathematical formulations, and the numbers don't lie

 

Songs, you don't have to teach me about humility and self-reflection.. you embody those aspects, it's like.. you ARE humility itself, and your arrogant sarcasm and complete lack of contribution is just skillful means to teach us to become humble. Thank you.

 

I have 50 hrs. of math including advanced studies in Utility Theory. Please indulge me with your calculations.

[mat black]

The other day I found I didn't have the heart to kill a bug when formerly I would have done so without thinking. If Buddhism is true this bug could someday be a human. I suspect I was a bug in many former lives.

Excellent!!!

Maybe the bold type in the quote could read as follows "I had the heart not to kill the bug"

Edited October 17, 2009 by mat black

[Marblehead]

Hi Mat,

 

You don't talk much but when you do you say some really pretty things:

 

"I had the heart not to kill the bug"

 

Peace & Love!

[rex]

Rick, beautifully put. I don't want to comment on Vajra's repulsive dhamma preaching here ..

Vajra's light burns very brightly, perhaps too brightly for some on occasion. His posts are an ambivalent combination of knowledge, sincerity and sheer overbearing enthusiasm which usually leave me clarifying things for myself which is good and unusual at the same time as I normally just dismiss posts I have difficulty with. Thanks Vajra

 

well that is Buddhism, from the Pali Suttas to the Mahayana Tantras to Dzogchen, all are skillful means in realizing that all-encompassing condition. There is nothing separate from phenomena or behind it, infact phenomena (form) is emptiness. So of course the condition of phenomena is all encompassing; it's not reductionist because the relative is still important, hence the emphasis on compassion. What is the rainbow body? it's having infinite skill and means to help all beings, in any form, so of course the relative is important. but the realization of the all encompassing condition has to be realized.

Very clear thanks. Dependent origination is deceptively profound. What I was trying to express, though apparently not well enough, is that continually boiling everything down to dependent origination can be unhelpful and lack clarity. For example saying that rigpa is the result of seeing dependent origination implies that seeing dependent origination is the only way to experience rigpa.

 

Yes, mostly it seems that only those who have the same information in their heads can relate to my postings with any sense of real clarity.

 

Yes, I think it might just be a question of what you've studied. The things I say are an assimilation of all that I've studied and experienced directly. Of course I cannot help that.

Of course you can't and I apologise that you had to take some flak on account of my original post. Yes it's down to experience. I am on the path of accumulation and your posts seems to come from someone who is on the path of seeing so there's bound to be cross path communication issues. So while you appear to see no difference between various technical terms and dependent origination, to someone who see these terms as forming the basis of distinct dzogchen series and particular practices your insight could appear fatuous, which of course it isn't, but it may appear so to others who don't have the right background.

 

What is Rigpa to you?

I really can't answer this, I just try to follow the instructions I've been given. I shall follow Pero's sagacious advice and refrain from airing my confusions in the wrong forum and focus on how my teacher manifests to me.

 

Best to everyone.

[Vajrahridaya]

Thanks Vajra

 

Thanks for thanking!

 

Dependent origination is deceptively profound.

 

It certainly is and took me some time to see that.

 

 

 

For example saying that rigpa is the result of seeing dependent origination implies that seeing dependent origination is the only way to experience rigpa.

 

One can experience Rigpa in endless ways. But, I think to contextualize it in a way that allows for it's continual experiencing and deepening recognition and integration and so one doesn't fall into an extreme view about the experience and end up merely in a formless cling, that dependent origination is the ultimate salve. Which is why even after transmission, one should read your Rinpoche's books and his Precious Vase to get a good healthy context for the experience.

 

Guru Yoga is great and powerful, but if you don't understand it's how's and why's, then most likely... you're not going to do it.

 

 

I really can't answer this, I just try to follow the instructions I've been given. I shall follow Pero's sagacious advice and refrain from airing my confusions in the wrong forum and focus on how my teacher manifests to me.

 

Best to everyone.

 

You too Rex.

 

I do agree with what Pero said... and we can see the fruit of sharing too much of the more personal type of information on a public board, with me as an example.

[JustARandomPanda]

Part of me wonders if all the sniping back and forth of 'you need to shape up' and the snipes back of 'take a look in the mirror' are not unlike a husband and wife trying to change the other person. In one sense I see it as not just letting be what is - warts, flaws and all. People always want to change others but seldom ever want to or follow through with examining and defusing their own reactions. I know I'm often guilty of this behavior and it's surprisingly much harder to disarm this knee-jerk tendency than I thought.

[Marblehead]

Part of me wonders if all the sniping back and forth of 'you need to shape up' and the snipes back of 'take a look in the mirror' are not unlike a husband and wife trying to change the other person. In one sense I see it as not just letting be what is - warts, flaws and all. People always want to change others but seldom ever want to or follow through with examining and defusing their own reactions. I know I'm often guilty of this behavior and it's surprisingly much harder to disarm this knee-jerk tendency than I thought.

 

Yep.

 

Peace & Love!

[steve]

Part of me wonders if all the sniping back and forth of 'you need to shape up' and the snipes back of 'take a look in the mirror' are not unlike a husband and wife trying to change the other person. In one sense I see it as not just letting be what is - warts, flaws and all. People always want to change others but seldom ever want to or follow through with examining and defusing their own reactions. I know I'm often guilty of this behavior and it's surprisingly much harder to disarm this knee-jerk tendency than I thought.

 

Agreed - it's tough to live that way but definitely worth the effort.

 

One of my favorite quotes comes from Fr. Anthony Demello -

It is not selfish to live my life exactly as I see fit, what is selfish is for me to expect you to lead your life as I see fit.

[Vajrahridaya]

Part of me wonders if all the sniping back and forth of 'you need to shape up' and the snipes back of 'take a look in the mirror' are not unlike a husband and wife trying to change the other person. In one sense I see it as not just letting be what is - warts, flaws and all. People always want to change others but seldom ever want to or follow through with examining and defusing their own reactions. I know I'm often guilty of this behavior and it's surprisingly much harder to disarm this knee-jerk tendency than I thought.

 

I agree. It's called avoiding the issue. Spiritual responsibility is the absolute hardest and most detail oriented form of responsibility that one can have for oneself and the world. The tendency to want to fall into the error correction error syndrome of external blame is all too easy because our awareness is for the most part pouring out of our senses.

 

Which is why sitting meditation and retreats are highly recommended in most any spiritual path. So that we can just consciously be with ourselves.

 

A sane person can sit in a closet with the lights off for any amount of time and be at peace. The problem is, is that most of us are insecure, neurotic and somewhat insane to a certain degree, even if it's a socially acceptable level of insanity amongst a metropolis of insane people.

[Marblehead]

I agree. It's called avoiding the issue. Spiritual responsibility is the absolute hardest and most detail oriented form of responsibility that one can have for oneself and the world. The tendency to want to fall into the error correction error syndrome of external blame is all too easy because our awareness is for the most part pouring out of our senses.

 

Which is why sitting meditation and retreats are highly recommended in most any spiritual path. So that we can just consciously be with ourselves.

 

A sane person can sit in a closet with the lights off for any amount of time and be at peace. The problem is, is that most of us are insecure, neurotic and somewhat insane to a certain degree, even if it's a socially acceptable level of insanity amongst a metropolis of insane people.

 

Nice post V.!

 

Peace & Love!