You are all delusional!

[ngtest]

It is a matter of merit to believe in the right teachings.

[宁]

The Dude,

 

i'm well aware that it's essential to maintain appearances and for the sake of modesty and good environment i should keep a good attitude and all that... and say pretty words...

 

but you see, you can do that with yourself in front of the mirror, patting you on the back, eventually...

 

you came here with something to say, wanted to be listened, why don't you return the favor?

 

hear this: your thoughts count for nothing.

you're easy come easy go.

you'll be in vogue for a while, and then dissapear without a trace or rememberance, dust in the wind, is all.

do your dance, while it lasts.

 

i'm not any different. there is just a very small difference between you and me. but still, it exists.

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

 

Maybe I have received extended intuition from practising my own system

 

 

 

I think you may just well have! But you know your not allowed to teach it as part of the 'Traditional Non-Delusional Enlightenment System' anymore. You really made a lot of problems, I've had to change all the letterheads and flyers now. I may be willing to reconsider letting you back into the fold. As I'm sure you understand I have now achieved 'Non-Delusional God Head Status', and as long as you can accept that, I'm sure we can work something out(It's likely to be financial by the way, I've gotta be realistic, the overheads are killing me!).

[Apech]

 

No Apepch7, you see the mere act of donating a substantial sum to our society proves your sincerity, the general rule of thumb is(surprisingly)the more you donate the more serious and dedicated you are. But it is within my power, in fact, to appoint you as secretary to the 'Traditional Non-Delusional Enlightenment System' due to the position having recently become vacated because I have recently achieved 'Non-Delusional God status'. In view of this dire need to appoint a secretary I am pleased to inform you that all devotional/Non-Delusional monies be wavered at this point in lieu of your devotional/Non-Delusional service. Let's get this band wagon rolling!

 

 

 

Ninpo,

 

Me! Secretary! You must indeed be delusional. I lack the appropriate skill set - this is obvious. If you want proof here is the result of the Non-Delusional Secretarial Training Course:

 

 

Zen art of no-typing Score [blank] Grade: pink

Filing the non-categorizable Score [piffle] Grade: ZX81

Telephone skills Score [eh?] Grade: U

 

Overall Score: fish/water

 

Final Grade: X

 

Notes: {Zombie do not employ}

 

I think this is proof enough.

 

A.

[nac]

Delusions can be fun, but they can also be harmful.

Yes, delusions can certainly be harmful. Don't presume you're free from them just because the things you do are same as the ones that everyone you know say they enjoy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum I try not to.

 

You learn nothing that way (obviously ).

You should try it sometime.

 

Go out watch some TV do something fun at least sheesh! And yeah some enjoy meditating, well they've had to condition themselves to enjoy it because otherwise no one in their right mind would do it everyday for so long. Just for the record I consider relaxing and reflecting on your thoughts different from meditation since true meditation seems to require an empty mind, no thoughts.

Who taught you meditation? According to you, anyone who doesn't watch TV is in denial, eh? First you define "person in his or her right mind" as someone who doesn't like meditating, then you state we're out of our minds because we do! That's like saying I dislike alcohol, so I'll decide to call anyone who likes beer "crazy".

 

Other than milk, how many of your tastes were really "yours" to begin with and not acquired at some point? Perhaps it's you who is too bound by the conventions of your community?

Edited September 28, 2009 by nac

[markern]

Cultivation, in addition to mostly being an extreemly beneficial activity by itself, is what most enhances my life during the rest of the day. The quality of life I have sometimes tasted, though not yet acquired permanently, surpasses what I previously imagined possible and what most people still think is possible. Cultivation is also the thing that makes me most effective in my studies, social interactions, in lovemaking, in sports etc. If you are learning math and anatomy being able to concentrate on your reading and remember it almost photographically is a good thing and meditation can do that for you. Reducing sleep and gaining energy to work an extra 6 hours a day is also a highly useful thing. And anyway you will get very healthy according to Harvard:

 

 

Here is a summary of research findings cited at the Mind Body Medical Institute at Harvard Medical School (They recently changed the name to Benson-Henry Institute for Mind-Body Medicine. BHIMBM?

 

Mind/Body Medical Institute clinical findings include:

 

Chronic pain patients reduce their physician visits by 36%.

The Clinical Journal of Pain, Volume 2, pages 305-310, 1991

 

There is approximately a 50% reduction in visits to a HMO after a relaxation-response based intervention which resulted in estimated significant cost savings.

Behavioral Medicine, Volume 16, pages 165-173, 1990

 

Eighty percent of hypertensive patients have lowered blood pressure and decreased medications - 16% are able to discontinue all of their medications. These results lasted at least three years.

Journal of Cardiopulmonary Rehabilitation, Volume 9, pages 316-324, 1989

 

Open heart surgery patients have fewer post-operative complications.

Behavioral Medicine, Volume 5, pages 111-117, 1989

 

One-hundred percent of insomnia patients reported improved sleep and 91% either eliminated or reduced sleeping medication use.

The American Journal of Medicine, Volume 100, pages 212-216, 1996

 

Infertile women have a 42% conception rate, a 38% take-home baby rate, and decreased levels of depression, anxiety, and anger.

Journal of American Medical Women's Association. Volume 54, pages 196-8, 1999

 

Women with severe PMS have a 57% reduction in physical and psychological symptoms.

Obstetrics and Gynecology, Volume 75, pages 649-655, April, 1990

 

High school students exposed to a relaxation response-based curriculum had significantly increased their self-esteem.

The Journal of Research and Development in Education, Volume 27, pages 226-231, 1994

 

Inner city middle school students improved grade score, work habits and cooperation and decreased absences.

Journal of Research and Development in Education, Volume 33, pages 156-165, Spring 2000

 

You can read more about MBMI's approach to research here.

 

The following list of research is interesting, and most of the results will probably be proven to some extent in the future, but right now this is a mixure of preliminary results and solid data.

 

Greater Orderliness of Brain Functioning

 

EEG coherence increases between and within the cerebral hemispheres during meditation. EEG coherence is quantitative index of the degree of long-range spatial ordering of the brain waves. In a new meditator, the EEG coherence increased during the period of meditation. In a person who had been meditating for 2 years, spreading of coherence occurred even before meditation began, spreading of coherence to high and lower frequencies about half way through the meditation period, and continuing high coherence even into the eyes-opened period after meditation. Psychosomatic Medicine 46: 267-276, 1984.

 

Broader Comprehension and Improved Ability to Focus

 

Field independence has been associated with a greater ability to assimilate and structure experience, greater organization of mind and cognitive clarity, improved memory, greater creative expression, and a stable internal frame of reference. The results show that practice of meditation techniques develop greater field independence. This improvement in meditators is remarkable because it was previously thought that these basic perceptual abilities do not improve beyond early adulthood. Perceptual Motor Skills 39: 1031-1034, 1974, and 62: 731-738, 1986.

 

Increased Creativity

 

This study used the Torrance Test of Creative Thinking to measure figural and verbal creativity in a control group and in a group that subsequently learned meditation. On the post test five months later, the meditation group scored significantly higher on figural originality and flexibility and on verbal fluency. Journal of Creative Behavior, 13: 169-190, 1979, and Dissertations Abstracts International, 38: 3372-3373, 1978.

 

Deeper Level of Relaxation

 

A comprehensive statistical "meta-analysis" was conducted that compared the findings of 31 physiological studies on meditation and on resting with eyes closed. (A meta-analysis is the preferred scientific procedure for drawing definitive conclusions from large bodies of research). The study evaluated three key indicators of relaxation and found that meditation provides a far deeper state of relaxation than does simple eyes-closed rest. The research showed that breath rate and plasma lactate decrease, the basal skin resistance increases, significantly more during meditation than during eyes-closed rest. Interestingly, immediately prior to the meditation sessions, meditating subjects had lower levels of breath rate, plasma lactate, spontaneous skin conductance, and heart rate than did the controls. This deeper level of relaxation before starting the practice suggests that reduced physiological stress through meditation is cumulative. American Psychologist, 42: 879-881, 1987.

 

Improved Perception and Memory

 

College students instructed in meditation displayed significant improvements in performance over a two-week period on a perceptual and short-term memory test involving the identification of familiar letter sequences presented rapidly. They were compared with subjects randomly assigned to a routine of twice-daily rest with eyes closed, and with subjects who made o change in their daily routine. Memory and Cognition, 10: 207-215, 1982.

 

Development of Intelligence

 

University students who regularly practiced meditation increased significantly in intelligences over a two-year period, compared to control subjects. The finding corroborates the results of two other studies showing increased IQ in meditation students. Personality and Individual Differences, 12:1105-1116, 1991, and Perceptual and Motor Skills, 62: 731-738, 1986.

 

Natural Change in Breathing

 

Subjects were measured for changes in breathing rate during the practice of meditation. Breath rate fell from 14 breaths per minute to about 11 breaths per minute, indicating meditation produces a state of rest and relaxation. The change in breath rate is natural, effortless, and comfortable. American Journal of Physiology, 22: 795-799, 1971.

 

Decrease in Stress Hormone

 

Plasma cortisol is a stress hormone. The study shows that plasma cortisol decreased during meditation, whereas it did not change significantly in controlled subjects during ordinary relaxation. Hormones and Behavior, 10: 54-60, 1978.

 

Lower Blood Pressure

 

In a clinical experiment with elderly African American (mean age 66) dwelling in an inner-city community, meditation was compared with the most widely used method of producing physiological relaxation. Subjects who had moderately elevated blood pressure levels were randomly assigned meditation, Progressive Muscle Relaxation (PMR), or usual care. Over a three-month interval, systolic and diastolic blood pressure dropped by 10.6 and 5.9 mm Hg, respectively, in the meditation group, and 4.0 and 2.1 mm Hg in the PMR group, with virtually no change in the usual care group. A second random assignment study with the elderly conducted at Harvard found similar blood pressure changes produced by meditation over three-months (11 mm Hg for systolic blood pressure). Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 57: 950-964, 1989.

 

Reversal of Aging Process

 

Biological age measures how old a person is physiologically. As a group, long-term meditators who had been practicing meditation for more than five years were physiologically twelve years younger than their chronological age, as measured by reduction of blood pressure, and better near-point version and auditory discrimination. Short-term meditators were physiologically five years younger than their chronological age. The study controlled for the effects of diet and exercise. International Journal of Neuroscience, 16: 53-58, 1982.

 

Reduced Need for Medical Care

 

A study of health insurance statistics on over 2,000 people practicing meditation over a five-year period found that meditators consistently had less than half the hospitalization than did other groups with comparable age, gender, profession, and insurance terms. The difference between the meditation and non-meditation groups increased in older-age brackets. In addition, the meditators had fewer incidents of illness in seventeen medical treatment categories, including 87% less hospitalization for heart disease and 55% less for cancer. The meditators consistently had more than 50% fewer doctor visits than did other groups. Psychosomatic Medicine, 49: 493-507, 1987.

 

Cholesterol

 

A longitudinal study showed that cholesterol levels significantly decreased through meditation in hypercholsteolemic patients, compared to matched controls, over an eleven-month period. Journal of Human Stress, 5: 24-27, 1979.

 

Increased Self-Actualization

 

Self-actualization refers to realizing more of one's inner potential, expressed in every area of life. A statistical meta-analysis of 42 independent studies indicated the effect of meditation on increasing self-actualization is markedly greater than that of other forms of relaxation. This analysis statistically controlled the length of treatment and quality of research design. Journal of Social Behavior and Personality, 6: 189-248, 1991.

 

Increased Strength of Self-Concept

 

One month after beginning meditation, subjects experienced an improved self-concept in comparison to before learning meditation. Meditation participants developed a more strongly defined self-concept and also came to perceive their "actual self" as significantly closer to their "ideal self." No similar changes were observed for matched controls. Journal of Psychology, 4: 206-218, 1976.

 

Decreased Cigarette, Alcohol, and Drug Abuse

 

A statistical meta-analysis of 198 independent treatment outcomes found that meditation produced a significantly larger reduction in tobacco, alcohol, and illicit drug use than either standard substance abuse treatments (including counseling, pharmacological treatments, relaxation training, and Twelve-Step programs) or prevention programs (such as programs to counteract peer-pressure and promote personal development). This meta-analysis controlled for strength of study design and included both heavy and casual users. Whereas, the effects of conventional programs typically decrease sharply by three months, effects of meditation on total abstinence from tobacco, alcohol, and illicit drug ranged from 50% to 89% over a 18 to 22 month period of study. Alcoholism Treatment Quarterly, 11: 13-87, and International Journal of the Addictions, 26: 293-325, 1991.

 

Increased Productivity

 

In this study subjects practicing meditation showed significant improvements at work, compared with members of a control group. Job performance and job satisfaction increased while desire to change jobs decreased. People at every level of the organization benefited from practicing meditation. Academy of Management Journal, 17: 362-368, 1974.

 

Improved Relations at Work

 

This study found significant improvements in relations with supervisors and co-workers after an average of eleven months practicing meditation, in comparison to control subjects. And while meditators reported that they felt less anxiety about promotion (shown by reduced climb orientation), their fellow employees saw them as moving ahead quickly. People at every level of the organization benefited from practicing meditation. Academy of Management Journal, 17: 362-368, 1974.

 

Increased Relaxation and Decreased Stress

 

This three-month study of managers and employees who regularly practiced meditation in a Fortune 100 manufacturing company (Puritan-Bennett Corporation) and a smaller distribution-sales company in Philadelphia showed that meditation practitioners displayed more relaxed physiological functioning, greater reduction in anxiety, and reduced tension on the job, when compared to control subjects with similar job positions in the same companies. Anxiety, Stress and Coping International Journal, 6: 245-262, 1993.

 

Improved Health and More Positive Health Habits

 

In two companies that introduced meditation, managers and employees who regularly practiced meditation improved significantly in overall physical health, mental well-being, and vitality when compared to control subjects with similar jobs in the same companies. Meditation practitioners also reported significant reductions in health problems such as headaches and backaches, improved quality of sleep, and a significant reduction in the use of hard liquor and cigarettes, compared to personnel in the control groups. Anxiety, Stress and Coping International Journal, 6: 245-262, 1993.

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

Ninpo,

 

Me! Secretary! You must indeed be delusional. I lack the appropriate skill set - this is obvious. If you want proof here is the result of the Non-Delusional Secretarial Training Course:

Zen art of no-typing Score [blank] Grade: pink

Filing the non-categorizable Score [piffle] Grade: ZX81

Telephone skills Score [eh?] Grade: U

 

Overall Score: fish/water

 

Final Grade: X

 

Notes: {Zombie do not employ}

 

I think this is proof enough.

 

A.

 

Let me be the judge of that, I have after all achieved 'Non-Delusional God Status'. And frankly all this paper work is getting me down.

[Albert]

I am so confident about what i believe, i feel like going and signing up to a forum to ask them what they believe.

[Marblehead]

I am so confident about what i believe, i feel like going and signing up to a forum to ask them what they believe.

 

Well Albert, if you ask the members here you will get every answer you ever expected and many more that you probably would have never expected.

 

But regardless, I am going to hold fast to my delusions because they completed the reality I have created for myself.

 

Happy Trails!

[Stigweard]

Personally I believe that the scientific method is very relevant to Taoist cultivation. We can observe, through the formation of the Yijing, Wuxing, TCM, etc, that the ancient Taoist applied a very empirical approach to their cultivation and studies.

 

The difference, I believe, is that they incorporated both subjective and objective analysis in their ontology.

 

I feel that Taoism should be exposed to proper scientific analysis. There are, in my view, way to many people claiming 'super powers' who hide behind the BS of, "Science will never be able to explain what I can do so I will never subject myself to scientific analysis."

 

In the Myth Busting thread:

 

I honestly believe that our greater society would benefit immensely from the rich wisdom and virtue of Taoism and Buddhism. However the proliferation of self-proclaimed masters showing off parlour tricks or making "Nutella in the shorts" claims of spiritual ascendency as means to attract attention, followers, and money tarnishes the credibility of these beautiful teachings.

 

And, because by nature Taoism and Buddhism tend to be quiet and humble paths, all our society sees are these crackpots and charlatans and unfortunately the devoted practitioners and authentic teachers get branded with the same label.

 

I applaud the suggested establishment of an international forum of authentic Masters. But maybe we should also compose a "myth busting" protocol to confirm or bust claims of 'special abilities' or spiritual ascendancy. Then with this 'filter' we can credibly post a Charter of Authenticity to serve both the integrity of our own cultivation and also to create the foundation of greater credibility for our chosen traditions within our own communities.

 

What say you?

Should we unquestioningly believe in claims and demonstrations of powers? This approach is very convenient for 'masters' who are employing false abilities to gather more followers. And also to use such a false ability as a personal benchmark is the height of self delusion.

 

And should we avoid applying true discerning inquiry to the teachings and practices we are being taught? Now sure we should trust our teachers and follow their instruction. But to do so without discernment creates a dependency on the source which neither honours ourselves nor our teachers. And, in my view, a spiritually independent soul lives by their own virtue.

 

And in essence all of our teachings and practices have been passed down through aeons of trial and error experimentation. Did the sages of old wait until they were enlightened before they underwent their tests and experiments? Perhaps it was through exactly this process that they indeed became enlightened.

 

So should I wait until I can fly through the air and walk on water before I start questioning and applying impartial discernment to the possibilities that are presented around me?

 

Why shouldn't we question such claims of ability? So much good research has gone into the healing benefits of Qigong and much proof is prevalent about its benefits for many illnesses. So why should we then apply scientific research to one area of qigong and yet declare that the area of 'special qigong abilities' is off-limit?

And in Question about spirituality and scientific testing :

My own experiences have convinced me that such powers are possible with the right training and dedication. But we have to my knowledge (please correct me if I am wrong) no established body of accumulated credible scientific data upon which to build.

 

And it is because of this that we witness day in and day out right here on our beloved TaoBums the incessant wrangling and mudslinging because all we can really do here is assert OPINIONS. Any opinion can be immediately placed into disrepute by a contrasting opinion.

 

I think Billy Connelly is a foul mouthed SOB but damn he is funny!!!

 

An opinion, and no sooner have I said it someone else can say, "He's a loser, Seinfeld is what you call funny!"

 

And so on ad nauseum.

 

But if we had a body of credibly tested scientific studies we could, without needless windbagging, say, "Yes this qigong is good for this." And another other practitioner could undergo the relevant training and achieve said result reliably and with confidence.

 

So "Yes" I agree with the challenge in the first post.

 

Those amongst us 'swinging our dingle' proclaiming their own abilities or the abilities of xyz master, step on forward, lets have a look at you. Not to tear you down nor to ridicule but because we are earnestly interested. We want to learn and we want to be able to start documenting in a way that gives us irrefutable proof so that we can cultivate our own way and leave a testimony and a blazed trail for those that follow.

[Marblehead]

Hi Stig,

 

I am already a skeptic so you didn't have to convince me.

 

I agree with you post(s). It is up to the claimer to prove his/her claim. The Scientific Method is the best way of proving.

 

I think that if a few of the phonies were sued for false advertising the BS would be reduced substantially.

 

I don't like being negative but when I listen to some of the claims I immediately think, "Is this too good to be true?"

 

But bottom line, it is up to the individual to determine if something is useful in their life. If a certain practice helps a person to get their life centered so that they can deal with their 'real wordl' then I think it was good, whether it is a delusion or not.

 

Happy Trails!

[宁]

The paradox with skeptical people: they are ready to believe anything!

 

If you believe in something, you can't believe everything!

 

If you still believe everything, that shows that you are still in the skeptical (undecided) state. Just watch people that say they are skeptical, or protected from 'delusion'. They are really undecided. Good tests for one's faith.

Faith is not something mystical. M Eliade said that Faith is one of the functions of our brain....

 

It's not worth staying undecided too long, time's a wastin..

 

Happy trails to ya too!

[Albert]

Well Albert, if you ask the members here you will get every answer you ever expected and many more that you probably would have never expected.

 

But regardless, I am going to hold fast to my delusions because they completed the reality I have created for myself.

 

Happy Trails!

 

Thanks for the message - i should have made it more obvious that i was being sarcastic. I think it is funny how 'that guy' has made the effort to sign up to a forum and tell everyone that he knows the truth and that everyone else doesnt...yet he would still like to know 'the delusional opinion'.

 

I am with you on this one, we all create our own reality individually and collectively.

 

What a wonderful experience

[-O-]

 

 

I think it is funny how 'that guy' has made the effort to sign up to a forum and tell everyone that he knows the truth and that everyone else doesnt...yet he would still like to know 'the delusional opinion'.

 

 

 

 

 

Are you guys sure "That Guy" is pointificating to you his beliefs? He came across to me as someone who has spent a fair amount of time on the topic of chi - qi gong etc. It seemed to me that he had a heartfelt struggle with his own beliefs and was looking to the people here (who do believe) for input.... perhaps the perceived arrogance and hostility of That Guy is a belief which might not be accurate (or a delusion) in and of itself?

[Marblehead]

The paradox with skeptical people: they are ready to believe anything!

 

If you believe in something, you can't believe everything!

 

If you still believe everything, that shows that you are still in the skeptical (undecided) state. Just watch people that say they are skeptical, or protected from 'delusion'. They are really undecided. Good tests for one's faith.

Faith is not something mystical. M Eliade said that Faith is one of the functions of our brain....

 

It's not worth staying undecided too long, time's a wastin..

 

Happy trails to ya too!

 

Ha!, my Little friend. You are not going to get me on this one. Hehehe.

 

There is a world of difference between being skeptical and accepting anything without question.

 

I'm from Missouri: the "Show me" state. (Nor really, I'm just pretending.) Show Me!

 

I believe in something. I am skeptical of all else. I exist - I'm not sure about you.

 

Yes, if you believe in everything and any one of those beliefs contradict another belief then you are undecided.

 

I have trashed "Faith". It no longer applies in my life. It either 'is' or it is something I would question to find out if it 'is' or not. But then there are some things that are presented to my brain that just do not fit into the "logic" basket so they are tossed into the "illogic" basket without questioning.

 

Happy Trails!

Edited September 29, 2009 by Marblehead

[That Guy]

Are you guys sure "That Guy" is pointificating to you his beliefs? He came across to me as someone who has spent a fair amount of time on the topic of chi - qi gong etc. It seemed to me that he had a heartfelt struggle with his own beliefs and was looking to the people here (who do believe) for input.... perhaps the perceived arrogance and hostility of That Guy is a belief which might not be accurate (or a delusion) in and of itself?

 

Thanks -O-, you are quite correct.

 

LEt me try and put things in a simpler for here using short points.

 

 

- I have spent time looking into and trying some stuff out, not had a master though maybe thats why I'm so lost

 

- I target more the spiritual/paranormal side and claims made by your practices

 

- I am sceptical, I like the scientific approach because it is more reliable (ps this doesnt mean I am an evil western consumer who is a materialist ass, I am quite the minimalist). I quite dislike how some people view the west, it's not perfect but its the best at some of the things it does! Would you get operated on my an acupuncturist? herbalist? psychic surgeon? or a top "western" surgeon? (don't say you believe in prevention, because bad things can happen to anyone)

 

- I believe the is great philosophical knowledge to be be gained from some texts, philosophy not some kinda magic wizardry or divinity

 

- Being open minded doesn't mean you believe everything you hear could be true. Be open minded, but not to open minded because your brain might fall out! ( read it somewhere sometime, cant remember where )

 

- If masters have supernatural abilities they should stop being selfish or sissies and at the very least prove that such things exist! Nothing more nothing less.

 

- Expanding on the last point, I dont care if you say its better kept secret because such knowledge is dangerous! WeLL you know whats more dangerous? s-e-c-r-e-c-y , because an uninformed public becomes easy pickings.

 

- Where is chi?! I want it found and tested. If some masters would have the balls to show this stuff is real with the help of scientists, then maybe science can create some instrument to measure it! You say the knowledge is too dangerous for the world? well I'm much afraid of countries having nukes than a country of people meditating... I would say the country would become too docile to attack anyone by the time they gained their power, but that boxer dude has shown me that might not be the case

 

- Visualising things over and over and over I would not recommend, I'm sorry, if there is something there you should feel it or find it without imagining it so much.

 

- If a delusion makes you happier, then well good for you, but at the same time thats not dealing with the problem, you're just running away, you're just deluding yourself into thinking "its ok" when it might not be. Worst even you could be cheating yourself out of real things that could be by running away...

 

Thats all for now, I gotta go and I hate making a post in two sittings

 

Look forward to your responses

[wudangspirit]

It is amazing how you have Mastered the world so freely and easily. I'm happy for you that you don't need any cultivation and can see that all of us are "delusional".

 

How can you be so certain that you are correct? Your Tao is YOUR Tao anyway. Have you ever thought that maybe other people may know something you do not? Are you so still and content that your ego has been killed? It doesn't seem so.

 

Don't pass judgement on something you do not understand or have taken the time to understand.

By stilling ourselves in meditation it allows us to get to a point that while we are not in meditation that we can see the "real" world in front of us and take part 150% in life. Really enjoying what the world has to offer rather than judging everything and everyone with our ego and post heaven disillusionment.

 

You're a beautiful person but you just have to realize it first. All can see beauty as beauty only because there is ugliness. No judgement. This is reality.

 

Tao Bless

 

Delusions can be fun, but they can also be harmful.

 

So before you attack me, hear me out....

 

So you have some free time, why waste it "cultivating" what ou can't even prove is real?

Why not sit down and educate yourself in something that matters like science and math?

Why not learn some new skills like painting and sculpting?

 

You sit there for hours at a time doing nothing/meditating. You learn nothing that way (obviously ). Go out watch some TV do something fun at least sheesh! And yeah some enjoy meditating, well they've had to condition themselves to enjoy it because otherwise no one in their right mind would do it everyday for so long. Just for the record I consider relaxing and reflecting on your thoughts different from meditation since true meditation seems to require an empty mind, no thoughts.

 

Chakras....why not learn real medicine, learn about the real chakras, your organs! and stop trying to feel things that are there, but not in some mystical forrm you believe they are. Throw your heart at someone they'll feel it when it smacks them on the head, throw your "heart chakra" at them (if you can find it in the first place ) and they ll feel nothing, because there is nothing there!

 

So much energy here is wasted in fairy tales it's kinda sad

I mean a kid has imaginary friends and experiences we have a laugh and tell them the truth, they imagining things. Now an adult has them and we can do anything, because its been labelled a spiritual or religious experience. Whats up with that?!

 

I also see so much "visualisation" type stuff that it makes me wonder how long one must visualise before they buy into their own fantasy! I dont need to visualise light to see it, sound to hear it, pain to feel it etc because they are real! If my dantian was reaal I would feel it, all I feel is my stomach rumbling

Can you seriously suggest that the majority of people are born lacking the ability to feel and see stuff like this? Are we born handicapped and need to "cultivate" in order to regain our full power? please!

 

Yes I know look at was some awesome masters can do, well they practice martial arts or do exercises that allow them to do these things, its more about conditioning their body rather than cultivating! I wanna see someone who cultivates their body without conditioning it do some crazy thing like a 1 finger pushup or whatever.

 

As for some of the masters seen doing mystical things on video, well if they ve done it for the camera why not do it one more time for some top and i mean TOP! scientists to see?!? Dont give me that "they wont listen to us" stuff because all they have to do is walk up to them, there is no need for the first meeting to be some kinda formal encounter. Just g to the top biologist and zap him with some bio energy, he ll make time for you then!

 

And yes monks dry wett cloth in really cold conditions etc, but thats because they ve mastered their bodies functions. We can all raise our bodies temperature for example, not at will but we can, go get a fever you ll see! No energy none sense needed!

 

This is getting long, so I should end it! The more I look into this stuff the more it seems like some kinda cult, it may not harm you, but lets just say you could be spending your time doing something better and being happier as a result, you may think you re happy thanks to this stuff, but you re just being happy because you re delusional.

 

I dont mean to offend any of you, and chances are I wont, because my words probably wont break through the barrier of delusions built over time. I hope you read the whole post, sorry its long...

 

Thank you for reading

[Ya Mu]

Thanks -O-, you are quite correct.

 

LEt me try and put things in a simpler for here using short points.

- I have spent time looking into and trying some stuff out, not had a master though maybe thats why I'm so lost

 

- I target more the spiritual/paranormal side and claims made by your practices

 

- I am sceptical, I like the scientific approach because it is more reliable (ps this doesnt mean I am an evil western consumer who is a materialist ass, I am quite the minimalist). I quite dislike how some people view the west, it's not perfect but its the best at some of the things it does! Would you get operated on my an acupuncturist? herbalist? psychic surgeon? or a top "western" surgeon? (don't say you believe in prevention, because bad things can happen to anyone)

 

- I believe the is great philosophical knowledge to be be gained from some texts, philosophy not some kinda magic wizardry or divinity

 

- Being open minded doesn't mean you believe everything you hear could be true. Be open minded, but not to open minded because your brain might fall out! ( read it somewhere sometime, cant remember where )

 

- If masters have supernatural abilities they should stop being selfish or sissies and at the very least prove that such things exist! Nothing more nothing less.

 

- Expanding on the last point, I dont care if you say its better kept secret because such knowledge is dangerous! WeLL you know whats more dangerous? s-e-c-r-e-c-y , because an uninformed public becomes easy pickings.

 

- Where is chi?! I want it found and tested. If some masters would have the balls to show this stuff is real with the help of scientists, then maybe science can create some instrument to measure it! You say the knowledge is too dangerous for the world? well I'm much afraid of countries having nukes than a country of people meditating... I would say the country would become too docile to attack anyone by the time they gained their power, but that boxer dude has shown me that might not be the case

 

- Visualising things over and over and over I would not recommend, I'm sorry, if there is something there you should feel it or find it without imagining it so much.

 

- If a delusion makes you happier, then well good for you, but at the same time thats not dealing with the problem, you're just running away, you're just deluding yourself into thinking "its ok" when it might not be. Worst even you could be cheating yourself out of real things that could be by running away...

 

Thats all for now, I gotta go and I hate making a post in two sittings

 

Look forward to your responses

 

Part of what you say I agree with. The part that you probably do not relate to is the "show the scientists" part. If they do not have the instrumentation to measure it then for the most part they will not be interested in any "showing". However, certain components of qi have been measured. If you bother to search the database of scientific research on qi and qigong http://www.qigonginstitute.org/html/papers.php for papers and http://www.qigonginstitute.org/html/database.php for the database.

If these do not meet your scientific standard then you can't be convinced or helped by anyone on this board.

FWIW I have had many MD's as well as scientists in my classes that felt the qi and observed its effects; didn't mean they had any interest whatsoever in pursuing studies.

 

I think it should always be experiential. In other words, when I teach I tell the students it is NOT what I know but what YOU can know. What I say doesn't mean a thing but what YOU can experience does mean something.

We do medical qigong everyday in clinic with amazing results. You can explain it away by saying things like "it just is a form of hypnosis" or some such, but that doesn't explain why people who absolutely do not believe in it have body movements when they are face down on a therapy table not being able to see what you are doing nor why the pain is eliminated nor why this works really well on animals.

 

Anytime you wish to fund any type of medical qigong study I am available to participate. You find the doctors and scientists willing to do their part. I imagine you can put together a really good study for a little less than $1,000,000. Or if you find the scientists and doctors willing to put in free time (good luck!) and a facility with sensitive measuring equipment willing to donate it's time (last I checked acoustic labs are several hundred thousand an hour; again - good luck!).

 

Furthermore if you come to one of my workshops I would be extremely surprised if you didn't feel qi. So surprised that I will offer you a money back guarantee that you will leave believing in the existence of qi and its ability to take pain away from others or your money back. It is no big secret and simply takes time&effort practice.

 

Is there a lot we don't know about qi? In terms of medical qigong I believe we are in its infancy and we know some things but certainly NOT everything. But IMO one day it will be the medicine of the future.

[Albert]

Are you guys sure "That Guy" is pointificating to you his beliefs? He came across to me as someone who has spent a fair amount of time on the topic of chi - qi gong etc. It seemed to me that he had a heartfelt struggle with his own beliefs and was looking to the people here (who do believe) for input.... perhaps the perceived arrogance and hostility of That Guy is a belief which might not be accurate (or a delusion) in and of itself?

 

Well he is communicating his superficial beliefs. And they involve a large amount of ego. As he has admitted too already. Some of his words are heartfelt...others are not so heartfelt and maybe attention seeking.

 

But going back to your wise words...why does he want attention? because he has had a heartfelt struggle with his own beliefs. Therefore, his percieved arrogance and hostility is most likely the same as what most of us do when we feel a bit lost and fearful.

 

I do not feel above or below 'that guy'...therefore i am not being condescending at all in what i say about what he has said In fact, it is nice to hear someone be honest about 'where they are at'. I suppose it is slightly annoying reading some of his thread, because there are some genuinely heartfelt replys from the people who have read his initial post, and it appears they are not sinking in just yet.

 

my next thought is that i should get back to my own cultivation before expressing my judgements/opinions on others.

 

[goldisheavy]

I see two other possibilities. That Guy might be uncomfortable that there are some people around who believe what is to his mind "nonsense". He's curious, how can anyone believe that? What kind of crazy are these folks? Let me talk to them. So maybe he's just curious to feel out the nature and character of our "crazy" or maybe he wants to dissuade us.

 

Another possibility is that he has an intuition that maybe there is something to this Tao, qi, qigong, stuff, but he's a lazy ass and doesn't want to think on his own, and comes here, lays all the burden on us and expects us to do all the heavy lifting of changing his mind for him. It might be something other than laziness though. It could be fear. He might fear that if he even considers this seriously for one second, this will be completely incompatible with how a "sane" person should behave, and is totally intolerable. Then if he asks us to prove qi and we manage to convince him, it's not his fault. So all the blame for his insanity will then fall on us and he avoids responsibility.

Edited September 29, 2009 by goldisheavy

[That Guy]

Part of what you say I agree with. The part that you probably do not relate to is the "show the scientists" part. If they do not have the instrumentation to measure it then for the most part they will not be interested in any "showing". However, certain components of qi have been measured. If you bother to search the database of scientific research on qi and qigong http://www.qigonginstitute.org/html/papers.php for papers and http://www.qigonginstitute.org/html/database.php for the database.

If these do not meet your scientific standard then you can't be convinced or helped by anyone on this board.

FWIW I have had many MD's as well as scientists in my classes that felt the qi and observed its effects; didn't mean they had any interest whatsoever in pursuing studies.

 

I think it should always be experiential. In other words, when I teach I tell the students it is NOT what I know but what YOU can know. What I say doesn't mean a thing but what YOU can experience does mean something.

We do medical qigong everyday in clinic with amazing results. You can explain it away by saying things like "it just is a form of hypnosis" or some such, but that doesn't explain why people who absolutely do not believe in it have body movements when they are face down on a therapy table not being able to see what you are doing nor why the pain is eliminated nor why this works really well on animals.

 

Anytime you wish to fund any type of medical qigong study I am available to participate. You find the doctors and scientists willing to do their part. I imagine you can put together a really good study for a little less than $1,000,000. Or if you find the scientists and doctors willing to put in free time (good luck!) and a facility with sensitive measuring equipment willing to donate it's time (last I checked acoustic labs are several hundred thousand an hour; again - good luck!).

 

Furthermore if you come to one of my workshops I would be extremely surprised if you didn't feel qi. So surprised that I will offer you a money back guarantee that you will leave believing in the existence of qi and its ability to take pain away from others or your money back. It is no big secret and simply takes time&effort practice.

 

Is there a lot we don't know about qi? In terms of medical qigong I believe we are in its infancy and we know some things but certainly NOT everything. But IMO one day it will be the medicine of the future.

 

Ya Mu, if I ever get the funding you're on! But right now I couldnt afford the lab you mentioned for 5 minutes.

Now I know you dont wanna hear this, but just thought of it, why not win Randis challenge and fund the research using that million? just a thought.

 

 

The study of qi has been going on for millennia right? So it shouldn't be its infancy, why not get a group of "genuine" masters and high level practitioners and set something up though? something practically undeniable! for the world to see?

 

You happen to mention animals, well because I am open minded and willing to experiment contrary to popular belief in this thread So anyway my dog has 1 bad eye, problem seem to be dry eyes, no tears get produced so this eye slime and whatnot builds up and it seems constantly irritated, its been a few years and no vet can help, best we can do is soothe the irritation, but even then it hurts to see him like that. Please recommend something I could try even as a sceptic. Thank you

 

I will probably read the data you posted sometime.

 

 

Albert,

 

I will communicate my beliefs and challenge yours, thank you

 

Wudangspirit,

 

it does feel pretty good to have mastered the world

But seriously, I have taken time, how many times must I repeat this point.....? I just want the time back, or exchange it for some more useful knowledge or skill.

 

Maybe I m here to find out what keeps you doing what you do?

[goldisheavy]

Maybe I m here to find out what keeps you doing what you do?

 

First of all, this will be different for different people. Some people have had excellent improvements in their health, and are going because of that. Others noticed better martial arts ability, and are going because of that. Still others noticed they enjoy life more and are going because of that. Others learned to perform some degree of magic and enjoy the enchantment it brings to life and are going because of that. Others noticed they have less anguish, and are going because of that. And so forth. Maybe some people can't even explain coherently why they are going along, or they don't even know why, never mind explaining.

 

For example, if a bird sings, and you ask it, "Why do you sing?" What kind of answer do you think you will get? The bird will probably tell you to go away and won't give you a serious answer. Because singing is taken for granted, right? Thus it need no explanation. Explanation is needed for something strange or unusual, but from birds perspective, constant singing is neither strange nor unusual thus requiring no explanation. See, from your perspective it's weird and you feel like you have some right to demand an explanation. But the bird doesn't care about you all that much. Bird only knows its own world just like you only know your own world and don't care about the bird (you appear to be admitting only a passing curiosity). The bird is happy and you are happy. You don't want to go out of your way to accommodate the bird, because you are happy with your life. The bird, likewise, doesn't want to go out of its way to accommodate you either, since its happy with its life.

 

Now tell me... is it possible to truly understand science if you come from a strongly faith-based background and you only have a passing interest in science? I say no. No way. A passing interest in science is not nearly enough to understand science. It's not even enough to prove that scientific method can be effective! Some of the scientific experiments are only accessible in very expensive and rare locations and unless you travel there and see the experiment for yourself, you are taking it on faith. The same is true here. Some experiences with qi are only possible if you travel somewhere, and this isn't possible when interest level is not beyond mere curiosity.

 

An interesting question is why do you have faith in one thing but not another? Some things are easy to believe for you and you believe them right away, even though you weren't there and have no way to prove them. Other things you don't believe even if you see them with your own eyes in front of your nose! Why is that? Did you ever think about that?

[thelerner]

For example, if a bird sings, and you ask it, "Why do you sing?" What kind of answer do you think you will get? The bird will probably tell you to go away and won't give you a serious answer. Because singing is taken for granted, right? Thus it need no explanation. Explanation is needed for something strange or unusual, but from birds perspective, constant singing is neither strange nor unusual thus requiring no explanation. See, from your perspective it's weird and you feel like you have some right to demand an explanation. But the bird doesn't care about you all that much.

 

That reminds me of a story:

 

Once when I was doing a long series of chi gung routines in the park someone asked me why I did them. Instead of a long drawn out answer (health, meditative, etc) I said 'The birds like it'.

 

While the answer was short and flippant (I was in the middle of a routine) there was an element of truth to it. Maybe its a matter of controlled perception but birds and squirrels would come out in greater number when I did chi gung. I don't know if its a testament to the art or the little critters watched long enough to deem me unthreatening.

 

Being outside, moving slowly, its not just qi (whatever that is) that moves, but greater blood flow, muscles and tendons stretch, the nervous systems relax, the body moves away from society's fight or flight constancy.

 

 

Michael

[Creation]

Seeing as this thread has come back from the dead...

 

That guy,

 

Since Ya Mu was kind enough to dig up some links to some hard data, consider here how your faith in the ability of modern science to find chi if it is real might be distortion of reality. Don't get me wrong, I am a big believer in skepticism, analysis, and the scientific method. But consider...

 

1. As Ya Mu stated, research that is considered acceptable by modern standards is VERY expensive. Someone like him who pracitces medical qigong for a living with an extraordinary success rate is "anecdotal" evidence. To do it "right" is so very difficult.

 

2. As I have said many times, a researcher has to have at least a bit of faith in what they are doing before they can really do serious research. But in the present culture of science, anything not agreeing with the current worldview is immediately and loudly shouted down. There are guys who make it their business to get a hold on stuff and "debunk" it. You know, guys like The Amazing Randi or Michael Shermer. I'm sure they do a lot of good, but they also create an environment in which new ideas are dismissed before they can be properly investigated. Then enough people get convinced that something has been debunked and so someone trying to research it gets shunned by colleagues, denied tenure, can't get funding, etc.

 

3. Consider the foibles of skepticism in the past. Some of the greatest physicist of their generation refused to believe in the ideas of the next generation. Like atoms and relativity. Dalton proposed the first physical/chemical argument for the atomic hypotheses and it took something like 200 years before scientists finally agreed, yes this is correct.

 

The fact is it is extremely hard to change the basic worldview of scientists on a large scale, just like it is for any other group of people. People will find all sorts of excuses to not believe you if they don't want to, and the moment one person tries to break away from the pack they are crucified.

 

Westerner are taught from a very young age that scientists are this model of rationality, nobly pursuing truth with pure objectivity. And that science basically understands all phenomena of physics, biology and chemistry with only a few loose ends to tie up. And that if something is empirically verifiable the enlightened scientists would be the first to know. Having examine the content, history, and philosophy of science, I find these claims to be naive and laughable hubris.

 

So don't hold your breath for scientists acknowledging the reality of chi any time soon, regardless of evidence. It's a sad but true reality.

 

Instead, you could go see someone like Michael Lomax (Ya Mu) who can project chi and see what happens. You might just have to invest some of your time, money, and energy to do so. Are you up to the challenge?

Edited September 29, 2009 by Creation

[That Guy]

GIH

The reason I have faith is science is because both you and I can look around and see what has been made possible using it. Computers, Aircraft, Satellites, Submarines and so on. Its not faith, the effects of science are right in front me, literally

Some may be theories, and thats fine too, because it's a theory and thats how it presents itself. And yeah I will just have to have faith in science, but seeing what it is capable of doing (good and bad) its track record is quite impressive.