Taoism and the status of women

[Marduk]

Hi,

 

I would like to know how taoism views women, whether it is egalitarian or not, what role taoists think women should play and what rights women have in this tradition...

[Magitek]

There are no taoist views

 

Why not read the Tao Te Ching see if you make something out of it?

Edited August 16, 2009 by Magitek

[Marblehead]

There are no taoist views

 

Why not read the Tao Te Ching see if you make something out of it?

 

Yea!!!!! I get to agree with Magitek!!!!

 

Be well!

[perhaps]

what you ask is to pull a bucket of water from the river and study it...sure..you can study it...but it will not be TAO you study. You cannot extrapolate the whole by studying a part. As soon as you say "this" or "that" then you are not studying Tao.

 

you may as well ask if the universe is egaliterian/gives rights to females..

[Pietro]

Hi,

 

I would like to know how taoism views women, whether it is egalitarian or not, what role taoists think women should play and what rights women have in this tradition...

 

Hello, welcome, and thanks for joining our little game.

 

Nice question. Mostly Taoism is a pro women religion. In early scriptures the Tao is seen as female (or so I have been told). It is very clear that although both yin and yand come out of the wu ji, yin comes first, and yang is generated by yin. In this some people see yin as deeper, and more near the dao.

 

And women being yin, similarly more intuitive and nearer.

 

Daoism did have a relevant number of taoist adepts, and practices that are for women. There are a couple of books out there on the topic.

 

Amazon.com: Women in Daoism: Catherine Despeux: Books

Immortal Sisters: Secret Teachings of Taoist Women Second Edition (Paperback) by Thomas Cleary

 

Generally it was accepted that women had a different path to men. For an example you can read about this in the

 

White Tiger, Green Dragon: A Tale of the Taoist Inner Alchemy

but also mantak chia and maneeewan chia wrote a book on female sexual practices which is not bad.

 

One of the things on which taoist women are really different from others is that taoist men are supposed to deal with their jelousy with meditations. So women were not criticised so much for having external affairs.

 

Of course this was inside a confucianist culture where all this was not really accepted. So the result would be that if it would happen have to be kept quite to the officials. But it was ok for the taoists.

 

As part of the sexual practices there were various ways in which women and men would come togehter. In ancient times in China they would organise state organised orgies, where person x had to go with person y. All this was eventually eliminated, but it gives you a bit of the hint.

 

There is also a lot of cult of the pure yin energy. So on the side of all this, you also find taoist men who try to absorbe the essence from as many young female as possible. (there were forms of vampirism both of men versus women and women versus men).

 

ANother thing which you should consider was that homosexuality was (and is) seen very differently if it is female homosexuality, versus male homosexuality. Male homosexuality is not much accepted (it goes deeper than that, but let's keep it simple). Female homosexuality was not only accepted but considered very good for the women involved. Male homosexuality would ruin their yang, female homosexuality would enhance their yin (it's called cleaning mirrors in tao-speach).

 

So generally female in Taoism had a similar status of men, different practices, had somehow to abide to the confucianist leadership, and in some ways had even elements where they were more free than men.

 

In a more recent settings I remember Bruce, my teacher (a taoist lineage holder), to whome a women asked how can she be accepted and related to by men as men relate to each other. Bruce laughed, and asked her is she really desires so, because, he said, men also break each other jaw all the times in bar-fights. Would she like also that?

 

So there is generally a no-BS approach where women are considered in egalitarian terms, but they are not permitted to be equal and then play the victim card.

 

I hope it helps,

Pietro

[Marblehead]

Nice post Pietro.

 

Be well!

[Marduk]

Hi Pietro,

 

Thanks for your explanations.

 

This is not the first time I see a bias against male homosexuality. Even Christians, who theoretically reject both, seem to be more harsh toward gays than toward lesbians. In my experience, at least.

[hyok]

I think Taoism is as feminine as a practice can get. What I mean is, Buddhism may be "gay" in the sense that it's kinda ghey. But Taoist practices are qualitatively more feminine in its essence - i.e. impregnating ourselves to develop an immortal fetus. The whole process is Yin turning into Yang, but for the most part its procedure is Yin-based. At least that's how I see it.

[Magitek]

Hi Pietro,

 

Thanks for your explanations.

 

This is not the first time I see a bias against male homosexuality. Even Christians, who theoretically reject both, seem to be more harsh toward gays than toward lesbians. In my experience, at least.

 

I don't think its like that at all.

 

Taoist stuff to me just seems very practical. Like retention (saving the seed, not ejaculating) is a practical thing for alchemy!

 

As for male homosexuality maybe they viewed it as physically impractical.

 

BTW Pietro, taoist society sounds AWESOME

[Erdrickgr]

Even Christians, who theoretically reject both, seem to be more harsh toward gays than toward lesbians. In my experience, at least.

 

Based on what I've read, I would say that this is accurate. The Bible mentions lesbianism once (Rom. 1:26-27), while the majority of passages mention only men (Lev. 18:22; 20:13; 1 Cor. 6:9). Also, I remember reading in Eve Levin's scholarly work Sex and Society in the World of the Orthodox Slavs, 900-1700 that lesbianism was treated as a sin, but a much lighter sin, than male homosexuality (provided, of course, that the lesbianism didn't result in breaking of a virgin's hymen).

 

As to women in Taoism, I am much too new to it to express any opinion myself, though I will say that I've read that women weren't always treated exactly as equals. I guess just read around and see what you find.

[Pietro]

I don't think its like that at all.

 

Taoist stuff to me just seems very practical. Like retention (saving the seed, not ejaculating) is a practical thing for alchemy!

 

As for male homosexuality maybe they viewed it as physically impractical.

Not really, it was is seen as damaging the chi of the person. And is linked and connected to Chinese medicine.

They don't have anything against homosexual, they just don't teach them practices, because it is ok to have a screwedup system. But it is a totally different thing to have a screwed up system... overcharged.

 

And actually that is again not really the issue, because taoists believe in the fundamental human right to do stupid things. The problem is that out of their studies through history they observed that when a male homosexual that practiced got into a position of political power then really horrible things would happen down the line (many peoples dying). Now since they recognised that politic is mostly a lottery, and you never know who the next emperor is going to be, they decided not to take any risk.

 

 

Actually rereading the post, I am not entirely sure the orgies were really banished, but more went underground.

 

There accounts of people participating in similar practices in modern times.

 

taoist society sounds AWESOME

 

how would you like going into a place, and seeing a women you really really like. And then being forced to see her have sex (with passion, even!) with someone else, while you need to stay there, sit and dissolve everything that comes up. If this makes you drool for the spiritual jump-understanding you would get then yes. It can be awesome. If you go eek, then that part of taoist society is not so much for you. Interestingly taoists accepted that sex was normal, some people were ok with a lot of sex, some people were ok with a normal amount of sex, and some were simply not interested. The incredible thing was that those three groups could coexist in the same religion, and (I strongly suspect) even in the same groups.

 

As to women in Taoism, I am much too new to it to express any opinion myself, though I will say that I've read that women weren't always treated exactly as equals. I guess just read around and see what you find.

That is correct, things changed with history, but I don't know enough to point out to specific examples.

 

Hi Pietro,

 

Thanks for your explanations.

 

This is not the first time I see a bias against male homosexuality. Even Christians, who theoretically reject both, seem to be more harsh toward gays than toward lesbians. In my experience, at least.

 

Yes, most tradition feel that the two practices are not equivalent.

 

Short story. I have a friend of mine who is an anglican pastor. He runs a little support group for people in trouble at the uni. Most people that go there are christians (apart the occasional taoist ;-P ) who are having problems. SOme of the problems are with other christians. Christians who are not accepted by the Evangelical community would often end up there. So long story short most homosexual arrive there sooner or later. And I know my friend is directly responsible for stopping a number of people from committing suicide. It's kind of part of his job.

 

As we chatted I described him the taoist view on homosexuality, and the difference between male and female homosexuality according to taoism. His answer was interesting:

"You know, I always felt that there was a difference, but I just could not point at what this difference really was. It might very well be that Taoists got it right" (... on this ;-) hehe)

 

So if there is a difference, then it wouldn't be a bias, it would be a recognition.

If instead there was no real difference, then all those traditions are biased.

[Magitek]

how would you like going into a place, and seeing a women you really really like. And then being forced to see her have sex (with passion, even!) with someone else, while you need to stay there, sit and dissolve everything that comes up. If this makes you drool for the spiritual jump-understanding you would get then yes. It can be awesome. If you go eek, then that part of taoist society is not so much for you. Interestingly taoists accepted that sex was normal, some people were ok with a lot of sex, some people were ok with a normal amount of sex, and some were simply not interested. The incredible thing was that those three groups could coexist in the same religion, and (I strongly suspect) even in the same groups.

That is correct, things changed with history, but I don't know enough to point out to specific examples.

Yes, most tradition feel that the two practices are not equivalent.

 

It still sounds great!!

[soundhunter]

From what I've read and the very little that I understand, I have yet to find any Taoist words that I find conflict with, as a woman, a feminist and a mother of girls. That doesn't mean that those practicing Taoist arts haven't themselves been sexist bastards at certain points in history

[nac]

Several Taoist texts say it's better to be a man than a woman, but as far as religions go, Taoism is one of the most pro-woman out there. Maybe the texts are simply stating facts about life in ancient China, eh?

[gendao]

From what I've read and the very little that I understand, I have yet to find any Taoist words that I find conflict with, as a woman, a feminist and a mother of girls. That doesn't mean that those practicing Taoist arts haven't themselves been sexist bastards at certain points in history

Why do you assume that story illustrates sexism? Sounds like her spouse got skurred because she had the balls to retaliate against a wealthy (& likely influential) family in town. I don't think her gender played into it, though. Thus, it appears more a problem of cowardice (or lack of effective people skills) than sexism. Or arguably feeling that violently drawing a sword on harassers is overkill (someone recently linked an article here from a Baguazhang guy who said that Taijiquan players may pretend to be peaceful, but inside are always just waiting to use and test their power against others).

 

Now, if Chen Ziaoniu had been a guy, do you think the outcome had been any different?

 

Sorry, but I just don't see how gender was the relevant fulcrum in this story, unless one is Freudian projecting?

Edited August 17, 2009 by vortex

[Zhuo Ming-Dao]

Not really, it was is seen as damaging the chi of the person. And is linked and connected to Chinese medicine.

They don't have anything against homosexual, they just don't teach them practices, because it is ok to have a screwedup system. But it is a totally different thing to have a screwed up system... overcharged.

 

And actually that is again not really the issue, because Taoists believe in the fundamental human right to do stupid things. The problem is that out of their studies through history they observed that when a male homosexual that practiced got into a position of political power then really horrible things would happen down the line (many peoples dying). Now since they recognized that politic is mostly a lottery, and you never know who the next emperor is going to be, they decided not to take any risk.

 

Along these general lines, there are countless legends about eunuchs who did cultivation practices and became effeminate superhuman monsters. Basically, the traditional consensus was that proper harmonization of yin and yang was vital for safe, high level energy cultivation work, and being a man who does not have sexual equipment or has sex with another man makes it much harder to receive enough yin energy to balance the excessive yang in their body (and the extra yang that they may be receiving from their partner's jing).

 

Meanwhile, lesbian sex does cause extra yin jing to transfer to their partner, so it would not really be any more different than using single cultivation or being celibate.

Edited August 17, 2009 by Zhuo Ming-Dao

[Creation]

Re women in Taoism:

 

There are a few highly respected female Taoist figures. Two who are definitely historical figures are Wei Huacun and Sun Bu'er. The are both immortals and founded lineages. Actually, Wei Huacun founded one of the most important (historically speaking) lineages, Shangqing or Maoshan.

 

 

Re homosexuality in Taoism:

 

Two (male) members of the Seven Sages of Bamboo Grove, Xi Kang and Ruan Ji, were said to have been lovers. I don't think they are considered celestial immortals or anything, instead being remembered as great poets and musicians, but they were cultivators of some ability.

Edited August 17, 2009 by Creation

[Mal]

[soundhunter]

Why do you assume that story illustrates sexism? Sounds like her spouse got skurred because she had the balls to retaliate against a wealthy (& likely influential) family in town. I don't think her gender played into it, though. Thus, it appears more a problem of cowardice (or lack of effective people skills) than sexism. Or arguably feeling that violently drawing a sword on harassers is overkill (someone recently linked an article here from a Baguazhang guy who said that Taijiquan players may pretend to be peaceful, but inside are always just waiting to use and test their power against others).

 

Now, if Chen Ziaoniu had been a guy, do you think the outcome had been any different?

 

Sorry, but I just don't see how gender was the relevant fulcrum in this story, unless one is Freudian projecting?

 

Did you read the whole thing? Including this part

 

"Vowing to never practice Chen Taijiquan, Ziaoniu broke her sword in two. She was inconsolable, and after an extensive period of mourning, hung herself. She was buried with her broken sword. Following this horrible incident, Chen Xunru decreed that Chenjiagou Taijiquan would not be taught to women."

[Pietro]

Did you read the whole thing? Including this part

 

"Vowing to never practice Chen Taijiquan, Ziaoniu broke her sword in two. She was inconsolable, and after an extensive period of mourning, hung herself. She was buried with her broken sword. Following this horrible incident, Chen Xunru decreed that Chenjiagou Taijiquan would not be taught to women."

 

I knew that women were not taught the family style of martial art, but I did not know this story.

 

To me it was told that the problem was that women would eventually marry, and go and live with the family of the husband. Those were the uses in China. And you did not want to dilute the family secrets by risking that this women would eventually teach in her new family. SO it was presented as a family secret problem. In a time where tao ji was a real defence. And people with it were employed as guards, being the only family to posses it would give your family always a good advantage position. Now is this sexist? Maybe. But it's not specifically taoist sexist. Is more that chinese uses impose to taoists to act in a certain way.

 

Also I am not sure the chen style practitioners were taoist at all.

 

Some style of kung fu are mostly done by taoists, other mostly by buddhists.

There are exceptions, but often this was the case as the martial art would intermingle with the spiritual practices.

(So Hsing I was mainly Buddhist, Ba Gua was mainly taoist, wu style tai ji was taoist, but chen style?)

 

Now, if I go to the wikipedia page on the chen style:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chen_style_tai_chi_chuan

there are no reference about taoism at all. Instead there are subtle references to Buddhism:

A second significant "promotional wave" in Western countries began in the 1980s. It can be traced to changes in Chinese foreign policy and the migration of Chinese Chen stylists around the world. On a more organised level mention must be made of Chen Village's international "roaming ambassadors" known as the "Four Buddha Warrior Attendants." These specially trained sons of Chen Village are Chen Xiao Wang (Chen Fake's direct grandson), Chen Zhenglei, Wang Xian and Zhu Tiancai. They are extremely well known internationally on account of their many years of relentless global workshops and talks.

 

Also the fact that they would not teach to their daughters anymore, would not preclude that they could teach to their brides. If the problem really was a problem with family secrets, you would expect the daughters not to be taught but the new wives to be taugh. hmmm

[JustARandomPanda]

 

 

ANother thing which you should consider was that homosexuality was (and is) seen very differently if it is female homosexuality, versus male homosexuality. Male homosexuality is not much accepted (it goes deeper than that, but let's keep it simple). Female homosexuality was not only accepted but considered very good for the women involved. Male homosexuality would ruin their yang, female homosexuality would enhance their yin (it's called cleaning mirrors in tao-speach).

 

Not really, it was is seen as damaging the chi of the person. And is linked and connected to Chinese medicine.

They don't have anything against homosexual, they just don't teach them practices, because it is ok to have a screwedup system. But it is a totally different thing to have a screwed up system... overcharged.

 

 

Fascinating. Pietro, can you give any links or books that go into this homosexuality aspect of Taoism?

 

 

 

 

edit:Ah...just spotted the following

 

Well I'd still like any extra sources that go into this more if possible

 

 

 

 

Along these general lines, there are countless legends about eunuchs who did cultivation practices and became effeminate superhuman monsters. Basically, the traditional consensus was that proper harmonization of yin and yang was vital for safe, high level energy cultivation work, and being a man who does not have sexual equipment or has sex with another man makes it much harder to receive enough yin energy to balance the excessive yang in their body (and the extra yang that they may be receiving from their partner's jing).

 

Meanwhile, lesbian sex does cause extra yin jing to transfer to their partner, so it would not really be any more different than using single cultivation or being celibate.

Edited August 17, 2009 by SereneBlue

[Tao99]

Edited August 17, 2009 by Tao99

[Pietro]

Fascinating. Pietro, can you give any links or books that go into this homosexuality aspect of Taoism?

 

Unfortunately not.

 

All I am telling you on this topic is coming from Bruce teachings,

and personal conversations I had with Bruce.

But I do know a bit more, if you need.

As every time the topics come out there are always some new students who gets shocked that taoists have this quite rigid rule.

 

So questions starts:

 

One of the most common ones is what is that de fact ruins the energetic body.

And the answer is male to male anal sex (Bruce-speak: Butt-fucking).

 

Is male female anal sex ok?

Yes, apart hygenic problems that can be overcome with a brief enema.

 

What about female being active with a strap-on dildo?

(You wouldn't believe how many women jumped up and immediatly wanted to know this. Makes you wonder what's going on in other's bedroom ).

Yes, that is ok too, because although physically the male is receiving energetically it is still giving.

 

How many times it is needed for the energetic body to be ruined?

It can't be said, sometimes one time is enough, other times one time did not ruin the energetic body.

 

Does it matter if someone was raped and he did not chose to have sex?

Unfortunately no. The energetic body can still be ruined.

 

Can you (Bruce) perceive when someone energetic body has been ruined?

Yes.

 

Do you ever check the energetic body of your students?

I try not to, I leave to people their own privacy.

(I think he also added although there are times where it is really obvious).

 

And finally: So Bruce what would you do if someone of your male students was homosexual?

Answer: I have taken an oath not to teach a male homosexual, as such I would have to throw them out of the class, or stop teaching. You cannot change an oath given to a person who is dead. You are stuck with that oath.

[gendao]

Did you read the whole thing? Including this part

 

"Vowing to never practice Chen Taijiquan, Ziaoniu broke her sword in two. She was inconsolable, and after an extensive period of mourning, hung herself. She was buried with her broken sword. Following this horrible incident, Chen Xunru decreed that Chenjiagou Taijiquan would not be taught to women."

Ah true, although in that case the sexism would be a byproduct of nepotism - which also discriminated against males too.

 

IOW, a non-related male would not be taught the family trade, either. Cuz back then, those were the equivalent of secret society, industrial or military secrets. It was a great honor, not an entitlement, for anyone to be taught. So, if women were seen as more easily emotionally-swayed and prone to gossiping, they would be considered more likely to crack under pressure and leak such secrets against their oaths. Which is in fact what happened in her case.

 

Anyhow, the whole story sounds a bit melodramatic. So, who knows what really happened..? While I don't doubt this version is possible, I am not going to assume it an unembellished historical fact, either.

Edited August 17, 2009 by vortex

[soundhunter]