Above, or within....

[Pranaman]

I've read a lot about spiritual traditions, ranging from interpretations of Lao Tzu to theosophist literature, that say that the body is a limitation, and therefore cultivating spiritually and psychically is the way to go....

 

I'm a newbie internal martial artist, but I have a very good teacher who truly understands what "internal" actually means. I also live and train a la The Power Of Now by Eckhart Tolle. These are all very body oriented paths.

 

If you are fully present, sensing all sights, sounds, feelings, and your "self".... then through the body, thoughtless and mindful, have you not gone beyond the physical?

 

What do you believe?

[Ben D]

I've read a lot about spiritual traditions, ranging from interpretations of Lao Tzu to theosophist literature, that say that the body is a limitation, and therefore cultivating spiritually and psychically is the way to go....

 

I'm a newbie internal martial artist, but I have a very good teacher who truly understands what "internal" actually means. I also live and train a la The Power Of Now by Eckhart Tolle. These are all very body oriented paths.

 

If you are fully present, sensing all sights, sounds, feelings, and your "self".... then through the body, thoughtless and mindful, have you not gone beyond the physical?

 

What do you believe?

 

Hi Pranaman, it is my understanding that the mortal mind can never transcend the physical.

 

What can happen when the mind is stilled and conceptual thoughts cease, is that the apparent dualistic separation of 'I' and the external 'not I' also ceases and the two are one, i.e. non-duality of unity is all there is.

 

In the same way, when there is a cessation of mind conceptualization, the apparent separation of complementary opposites of past and future ceases and the two merge as one, i.e. non-duality of Now is all there is.

 

Of course, the first samadhi experience such as occurs when the mind is still for the first time doesn't last long, and just as the first drops of rain do not make a storm, the first experiences of out of body bliss do not imply enlightenment.

 

The error of all novice disciples is that when the normal dualistic mind consciousness returns, they claim "I' had a spiritual experience! This is an error, for when the 'experience' was, the 'I' was temporarily absorbed back into the non-duality of the Tao.

[Marblehead]

Nice response Ben D.

 

It is only in 'yo', the physical, that we have experiences. We have no experiences in 'wu', the unity.

 

There is no separation of the two; what is important, I think, is where our awareness lies.

 

Be well!

[Josh Young]

Where is the line between body and self?

 

And what is self?

[Marblehead]

Where is the line between body and self?

 

And what is self?

 

Ha! Everyone wants to know where the line is. There is no line, sorry. There are no blacks and whites, there are shades of grey.

 

I can't explain in words what "Self" is. I can offer an example though. When you are totally at peace, in your mind and in your heart (conscious and subconscious brain), with yourself, I think you have found your "Self".

 

I like to refer to it as my inner essence, my personal Chi, my 'life force'.

 

Be well!

[Aetherous]

Where is the line between body and self?

 

There is no line. What's experienced and who experiences is inseparable.

 

And what is self?

 

It could be said that there isn't a self. Or that all experience is of the self.

 

I think it makes sense to people that pure awareness is their "true self"...even though that's not accurate. You can't take out pure awareness as a thing. So it's really like there is no self at all...and just experience of life.

 

If you are fully present, sensing all sights, sounds, feelings, and your "self".... then through the body, thoughtless and mindful, have you not gone beyond the physical?

 

Everyone is always fully present, they just don't recognize it.

 

If you are taking up the power of now practice, you're not practicing correctly. If you've got a grasp of the technique, it'll slip through your fingers. Right now there is enlightenment...yet what stands in the way?

[Josh Young]

I agree, no line, and no self.

 

So then above or within holds no relevance for me.

[Pranaman]

Hi Pranaman, it is my understanding that the mortal mind can never transcend the physical.

 

What can happen when the mind is stilled and conceptual thoughts cease, is that the apparent dualistic separation of 'I' and the external 'not I' also ceases and the two are one, i.e. non-duality of unity is all there is.

 

Thank you. internal/external non-duality seems similar to, but probably different than, what I was trying to describe. Consciously, you become your environment. This is not only going beyond YOUR physical but being aware of the physical world even more.

 

Scotty, Power Of Now is a good pointer. At times, my ego is strong so I can easily forget, but I always find myself back home.

Edited July 8, 2009 by Pranaman

[Unconditioned]

If you are fully present, sensing all sights, sounds, feelings, and your "self".... then through the body, thoughtless and mindful, have you not gone beyond the physical?

 

What do you believe?

 

I don't believe we can go beyond the physical. However, we can become aware of the non-physical. Once we become aware of the formlessness that underlies (but is not separate from) form we may have a different 'view' (wrong word) of the physical but it is still there.

 

About 'Self'...

 

If we exclude an aspect of reality (e.g., physical) we are creating division, conflict, separation which are only thought forms. The nature of our minds are to make sense of our sense perceptions in order to survive, interact, communicate, etc. In doing that we generally divide, label, categorize, etc.

 

Over time we create an identification with these labels when we're children and divide our 'selves' from 'not-self'. From that point on we generally live in a world of opposites and the labels are used as the content of our thoughts. Over more time we become conditioned by the labels we've accumulated and identify with them as part of us, i.e. attachment. When a 'part of ourselves' is destroyed, threatened, etc. we suffer.

 

So the self is the assumption that we are the accumulation of our thoughts, as Krishnamurti would say "We are the content of our consciousness".

 

Anyhow I've rambled enough, I hope that helps to some degree. Tolle is on my top list of authors, very easy to understand and has several approaches to fit different types of people, good stuff.

 

All the best,

Nate

[Trunk]

.... then through the body, thoughtless and mindful, have you not gone beyond the physical?

Well, yes, beyond the physical.

But "the human form" (as MG calls it) has many layers, increasingly subtle and profound - beyond what we usually think of/experience as "physical"-, that more consciously integrate with Big NonStuff.