S.O.S. MJJ Becker!

[froggie]

edited out

Edited June 12, 2009 by froggie

[genmaicha]

Regarding dangers of certain practices especially for the heart: I think when it comes to breath retention one should be very careful.

This is something where even regular pranayama practitioners just extend one or max. two seconds per year!

As long as you just sit and watch your breathing and your internal chatter, I don't think there's any danger.

But once you get into holding your breath, be very careful, don't overdo it and be sure to have a trustworthy and experienced teacher. People had to be brought to the hospital after overdoing it and some even died.

[DaoChild]

People died from holding their breath for 2 seconds at the peak of their inhale and exhale?

 

I seriously doubt this, seeing as I have asthma and have been doing this daily, and so far my heart is pumping just fine .

 

Could you please elaborate?

[genmaicha]

People died from holding their breath for 2 seconds at the peak of their inhale and exhale?

 

I seriously doubt this, seeing as I have asthma and have been doing this daily, and so far my heart is pumping just fine .

 

Could you please elaborate?

 

English is not my native language. So I probably expressed myself not clearly enough.

Let's take a simple breathing pattern. In the beginning you

1. inhale for 7 seconds.

2. you hold the breath for 5 seconds

3. you exhale for 10 seconds.

 

Someone with strong lungs might go for

1. inhaling for 15

2. holding for 10

3. exhaling for 20.

 

Now even if you have strong lungs and practice daily you shouldn't add more than 1 or 2 seconds per year.

After 5 years you might get to:

1. Inhale for 25

2. Hold for 20

3. Exhale for 30.

But if you do this as a beginner or even more, say hold for 30, and practice like this daily for 30 minutes or up to two hours, according to experienced people I talked to you might very likely get into trouble.

[HouTian]

Regarding dangers of certain practices especially for the heart: I think when it comes to breath retention one should be very careful.

This is something where even regular pranayama practitioners just extend one or max. two seconds per year!

As long as you just sit and watch your breathing and your internal chatter, I don't think there's any danger.

But once you get into holding your breath, be very careful, don't overdo it and be sure to have a trustworthy and experienced teacher. People had to be brought to the hospital after overdoing it and some even died.

 

 

Exactly.

 

I too would like to add that the spring forrest qigong & lmp are nothing like mopai. Maybe what they practice behind closed doors is different i cannot say. But the basic,soft ,techniques being taught today will only bring mild health & spiritual gain,regardless how much one trains.

 

Holding the breath is not really dangerous,But knowing your own limits is what counts. When you reach a certain point you cannot even punish your own children,pets for fear of killing them. If an angry lady bumps into you accidently,then its curtains for them.

 

And most Importantly, knowing technique level,1,2,3 means nothing. You must have the blessing from sifu & the ancestors to go anywhere. Not to mention the attunement on the table, which most people dismiss as sifu healing them. Without the attunement & blessing,your wasting your time to even begin.

 

Good Luck,

[Vajrasattva]

Bottom Line.....

 

 

ANY TYPE OF RETENTION OF BREATH & SEMEN + Dynamic TENSION such as is done in something like MOPAI, gTUMMO, KAP, TENAGA DALAM/ILMU BATIN can be VERY dangerous with out the proper Guidance, Blessing & also Transmission.

 

So do yourself a FAVOR do not DO ANY OF IT unless you have the proper guidance & Blessing.

 

 

Love

 

Santiago

[11:33]

Qigong exercises that include dynamic tension done WRONGLY can cause horrific problems. Tension done improperly can cause the energy channels to block. If you are also charging yourself with energy at the same time it compounds the problem by forcing energy to try to go through the blocked regions, but it can't...

 

REALLY bad stuff can happen with tensing in qigong done wrongly (but unknowingly by the student).

 

I really don't know the MoPai methods but if they involve tensing various parts of the body that would 100% explain why they say it can be deadly-dangerous, so anyone out there reading this please realize its no joke.

 

EDIT: Just from my school of qigong Shaolin Cosmos Qigong, I've heard stories of people learning from the books, but purposely doing it totally wrong, namely by tensing their muscles while inhaling in Lifting the Sky, who had serious problems like spitting up blood.

 

You have to do it wrong for a while to have these things happen, say over a month or two of daily wrong practice. And you'd have to ignore the warning signs, like not feeling well from your practice.

Edited June 12, 2009 by 11:33

[Thunder_Gooch]

Exactly.

 

I too would like to add that the spring forrest qigong & lmp are nothing like mopai. Maybe what they practice behind closed doors is different i cannot say. But the basic,soft ,techniques being taught today will only bring mild health & spiritual gain,regardless how much one trains.

 

Holding the breath is not really dangerous,But knowing your own limits is what counts. When you reach a certain point you cannot even punish your own children,pets for fear of killing them. If an angry lady bumps into you accidently,then its curtains for them.

 

And most Importantly, knowing technique level,1,2,3 means nothing. You must have the blessing from sifu & the ancestors to go anywhere. Not to mention the attunement on the table, which most people dismiss as sifu healing them. Without the attunement & blessing,your wasting your time to even begin.

 

Good Luck,

 

houtian,

 

I know what I was taught at the lmp seminar and they most certainly did include exercises I had previously learned. It built upon it and included a lot more additional information. I am not certain if I am allowed to publicly discuss the training however. I have been over this many times with a fellow attendee who also knows about both schools and we both concur the exercises are near identical, although what we were taught at the seminar expands upon the other dramatically, but there is no mistaking the same exercises were present.

 

Personally I don't think anything we were taught is dangerous, perhaps I am wrong though.

 

peace

-mpg

Edited June 13, 2009 by More_Pie_Guy

[mjjbecker]

..

Edited July 5, 2009 by mjjbecker

[Spirit Ape]

MPG,

 

You know so many masters and people have died from training or during training, blowing a heart valve could have been done by something else which the practice just finished off. There is no guarentees in any training method be it Beckers teacher, john chang, wang li ping, its all about the time you put into something and get good at it. Becker maybe know the practice of such and such but may never attain a single thing??

 

My grandmaster had a heart attack during his morning practice in hongkong was it the method he was doing or the style, hell no it was his time to go we cant stop the wheel of death.

 

Ape

 

P.S Less is more when it comes to cultivation....

[Thunder_Gooch]

Oh please, you see no reason to continue it but yet you have to reply one last time? LOL

 

Your wrong just plain and simple. Practicing what we were taught at the conference has never led to anyone blowing themselves up, at least that I am aware of, and yes were certain the same exercises were covered.

 

You can cease and desist with your scare tactics now, everyone can see the emperor never had any clothes.

 

I know what we learned, the other people there know what we learned as well. I'd go over with you in a private conversation but I am afraid it would be future "blackmail" material you'd dredge up years from now to suite your needs.

 

 

I see no purpose in continuing this 'debate'. Someone who believes that reading a few books and going to a weekend seminar gives them more insight than people who have been learning directly from masters for years cannot be reasoned with-very clearly so in this case.

 

It is a beautiful day and I may go and sit in a cafe, read a book and generally enjoy life. Two months paid vacation coming up, time to visit some friends in different places, drink tea with my teacher, have lunch or dinner with friends. Life is good.

 

The only bitter, twisted person here is you Matt. Poisoned by envy and self hate. Your rant thread, your attacks on me. No matter, because it is you that suffers and you do so by your own choice. The only person here who hates is you. I don't hate you, not now, not before. I pity you. I pity the self loathing and misery you inflict on yourself. I pity that you cannot take any joy from the gift of being alive. If there is a cycle of death and re-birth then it seems entirely lost on you why you are where you are now and what lessons there are to be learned.

 

Live your miserable existence but understand it is one of your own perception. We won't be conversing again.

 

"When you give something to a man, or do something for him, the first time he will kiss your hands, second time he takes his hat off, third time he bows, fourth time he fawns, fifth time he nods, sixth time he insults you, and the seventh time he sues you for not giving him enough."

 

- G.I. Gurdjieff

 

 

MPG,

 

You know so many masters and people have died from training or during training, blowing a heart valve could have been done by something else which the practice just finished off. There is no guarentees in any training method be it Beckers teacher, john chang, wang li ping, its all about the time you put into something and get good at it. Becker maybe know the practice of such and such but may never attain a single thing??

 

My grandmaster had a heart attack during his morning practice in hongkong was it the method he was doing or the style, hell no it was his time to go we cant stop the wheel of death.

 

Ape

 

P.S Less is more when it comes to cultivation....

 

We are all going to die eventually, I am sure many people died from wrong practices. But mjj here has beat the war drums continuously about how dangerous some schools are, and then it turns out the same techniques are apart of other more respected schools and cause no "noted" ill effects. I call BS, on mjjbecker and his traveling band of minstrels. Just my $0.02

 

BZwuTo7zKM8

Edited June 13, 2009 by More_Pie_Guy

[Mokona]

It is a beautiful day and I may go and sit in a cafe, read a book and generally enjoy life. Two months paid vacation coming up, time to visit some friends in different places, drink tea with my teacher, have lunch or dinner with friends. Life is good.

 

Two months paid vacation sounds awesome. My vacation time is broken up and can sometimes be difficult to use.

 

 

Thanks above for the ghost clarification - I haven't noticed running into the cold ones before.

[Ken]

 

In your opinion did anything you learned at the LMP conference seem dangerous to you? That is assuming the individual practiced it exactly as taught.

 

What Master Wang has taught to the public is very safe if you follow the instructions since it's primarily for your overall well being. However if you don't, it can cause serious health issue, the Master himself have stated this before.

 

Another thing I want to say is mechanical methods themselves are not enough for you to progress in any authentic lineage. You need the Master's approval and blessing for the methods to work. That's why our practice can only be taught in person with approved teachers. Oral transmissions are needed not only to teach you the method, but there are other things that are transmitted to you. That's why even though mechanical methods from different lineage (Longmen, Mo Pai or Spring Forrest etc) might be similar, they are not going to give the same result. There are lineage power in works and that's why it's a BAD idea to mix practices.

 

Let me repeat myself: Don't be naive, mechanical methods/technique are NOT enough. So don't be so arrogant to say that Longmen Pai and Mo Pai have the same practice, they are fundamentally different, especially you have only went to a weekend seminar!!

 

p.s. I know that Jim and another person is selling Mopai practices on the internet, the people who learnt from them are fools, I don't think Jim et al have the Master's approval to teach, whatever techniques poeople learnt from them just won't work.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Ken

[enouch]

What Master Wang has taught to the public is very safe if you follow the instructions since it's primarily for your overall well being. However if you don't, it can cause serious health issue, the Master himself have stated this before.

 

Another thing I want to say is mechanical methods themselves are not enough for you to progress in any authentic lineage. You need the Master's approval and blessing for the methods to work. That's why our practice can only be taught in person with approved teachers. Oral transmissions are needed not only to teach you the method, but there are other things that are transmitted to you. That's why even though mechanical methods from different lineage (Longmen, Mo Pai or Spring Forrest etc) might be similar, they are not going to give the same result. There are lineage power in works and that's why it's a BAD idea to mix practices.

 

Let me repeat myself: Don't be naive, mechanical methods/technique are NOT enough. So don't be so arrogant to say that Longmen Pai and Mo Pai have the same practice, they are fundamentally different, especially you have only went to a weekend seminar!!

 

p.s. I know that Jim and another person is selling Mopai practices on the internet, the people who learnt from them are fools, I don't think Jim et al have the Master's approval to teach, whatever techniques poeople learnt from them just won't work.

 

 

I'm a bit confused, are you saying practicing the spring forest method is ultimately a dead end? THe author said in the tapes with enough deep pratice[lotus sitting] you can see auras and activate your spiritual eye.Also these empowerments[or lineagr holders] are they spirits,jinns,one reason I like qi gung over more hindu based systems is becaus it is rooted in natural forces.You don't have to feel like you're being disloyal to your God.Springforest directs us to call upon the master's enegy but he never explicitly tells us who this master is! Is it the lineage creator? Usually I just say master teacher or something as it's really hard for me to call any man master or lord.

 

What Master Wang has taught to the public is very safe if you follow the instructions since it's primarily for your overall well being. However if you don't, it can cause serious health issue, the Master himself have stated this before.

 

Another thing I want to say is mechanical methods themselves are not enough for you to progress in any authentic lineage. You need the Master's approval and blessing for the methods to work. That's why our practice can only be taught in person with approved teachers. Oral transmissions are needed not only to teach you the method, but there are other things that are transmitted to you. That's why even though mechanical methods from different lineage (Longmen, Mo Pai or Spring Forrest etc) might be similar, they are not going to give the same result. There are lineage power in works and that's why it's a BAD idea to mix practices.

 

Let me repeat myself: Don't be naive, mechanical methods/technique are NOT enough. So don't be so arrogant to say that Longmen Pai and Mo Pai have the same practice, they are fundamentally different, especially you have only went to a weekend seminar!!

 

p.s. I know that Jim and another person is selling Mopai practices on the internet, the people who learnt from them are fools, I don't think Jim et al have the Master's approval to teach, whatever techniques poeople learnt from them just won't work.

 

 

I'm a bit confused, are you saying practicing the spring forest method is ultimately a dead end? THe author said in the tapes with enough deep pratice[lotus sitting] you can see auras and activate your spiritual eye.Also these empowerments[or lineagr holders] are they spirits,jinns,one reason I like qi gung over more hindu based systems is becaus it is rooted in natural forces.You don't have to feel like you're being disloyal to your God.Springforest directs us to call upon the master's enegy but he never explicitly tells us who this master is! Is it the lineage creator? Usually I just say master teacher or something as it's really hard for me to call any man master or lord.

[Ken]

I'm a bit confused, are you saying practicing the spring forest method is ultimately a dead end? THe author said in the tapes with enough deep pratice[lotus sitting] you can see auras and activate your spiritual eye.Also these empowerments[or lineagr holders] are they spirits,jinns,one reason I like qi gung over more hindu based systems is becaus it is rooted in natural forces.You don't have to feel like you're being disloyal to your God.Springforest directs us to call upon the master's enegy but he never explicitly tells us who this master is! Is it the lineage creator? Usually I just say master teacher or something as it's really hard for me to call any man master or lord.

 

I have no idea what you are talking about. First of all i have never said spring forest qigong is a dead end. You can learn from the spring forest qigong tapes/videos/books and they will give you results if the following hold:

 

(1) Chunyi Lin's lineage is authentic.

(2) Chunyi Lin said you can learn from the tapes/videos/books.

 

The lineage's power is the lineage's power, i don't know how else to describe it, it can't be fathomed by mortals. However your mentions of spirtis/jinns is a interesting one. First any authentic lineage do not use spirits/jinns to give empowerment, secondly, a lot of practices I have seen that are popular in the west are nothing more than posession by spirits/jinns. These kind of practices have the common theme of emphasising "letting go" and going into "emptiness" from the very beginning since these are the states of the psych when outside influences can get into people. All authentic Daoist practices progress from youwei to wuwei and then to wubuwei. There is no such thing as going into wuwei in the beginning.

[enouch]

I have no idea what you are talking about. First of all i have never said spring forest qigong is a dead end. You can learn from the spring forest qigong tapes/videos/books and they will give you results if the following hold:

 

(1) Chunyi Lin's lineage is authentic.

(2) Chunyi Lin said you can learn from the tapes/videos/books.

 

The lineage's power is the lineage's power, i don't know how else to describe it, it can't be fathomed by mortals. However your mentions of spirtis/jinns is a interesting one. First any authentic lineage do not use spirits/jinns to give empowerment, secondly, a lot of practices I have seen that are popular in the west are nothing more than posession by spirits/jinns. These kind of practices have the common theme of emphasising "letting go" and going into "emptiness" from the very beginning since these are the states of the psych when outside influences can get into people. All authentic Daoist practices progress from youwei to wuwei and then to wubuwei. There is no such thing as going into wuwei in the beginning.

 

 

That's interesting, a medical doctor[oncologist] who's also involved with casting out spirits from a christian perspective is constantly going on about pratices from the east which make the mind more suceptable to entities.Emptyness[or super trance state] for one,when she's done with the redemption work she has the liberated person placed on a steady diet of mathematics and critical thinking skills.This augments a person's natural willpower and sense of self.

 

 

 

I have no idea what you are talking about. First of all i have never said spring forest qigong is a dead end. You can learn from the spring forest qigong tapes/videos/books and they will give you results if the following hold:

 

(1) Chunyi Lin's lineage is authentic.

(2) Chunyi Lin said you can learn from the tapes/videos/books.

 

The lineage's power is the lineage's power, i don't know how else to describe it, it can't be fathomed by mortals. However your mentions of spirtis/jinns is a interesting one. First any authentic lineage do not use spirits/jinns to give empowerment, secondly, a lot of practices I have seen that are popular in the west are nothing more than posession by spirits/jinns. These kind of practices have the common theme of emphasising "letting go" and going into "emptiness" from the very beginning since these are the states of the psych when outside influences can get into people. All authentic Daoist practices progress from youwei to wuwei and then to wubuwei. There is no such thing as going into wuwei in the beginning.

 

 

That's interesting, a medical doctor[oncologist] who's also involved with casting out spirits from a christian perspective is constantly going on about pratices from the east which make the mind more suceptable to entities.Emptyness[or super trance state] for one,when she's done with the redemption work she has the liberated person placed on a steady diet of mathematics and critical thinking skills.This augments a person's natural willpower and sense of self.

[genmaicha]

That's interesting, a medical doctor[oncologist] who's also involved with casting out spirits from a christian perspective is constantly going on about pratices from the east which make the mind more suceptable to entities.Emptyness[or super trance state] for one,when she's done with the redemption work she has the liberated person placed on a steady diet of mathematics and critical thinking skills.This augments a person's natural willpower and sense of self.

 

That's interesting, a medical doctor[oncologist] who's also involved with casting out spirits from a christian perspective is constantly going on about pratices from the east which make the mind more suceptable to entities.Emptyness[or super trance state] for one,when she's done with the redemption work she has the liberated person placed on a steady diet of mathematics and critical thinking skills.This augments a person's natural willpower and sense of self.

 

 

Why do you always double post? Please check that.

Thanks

[Ya Mu]

My body becomes cold when drifting off into a deep trance state, I lose sensation in my physical body and it becomes painfully cold. Other forms of meditation can have the exact opposite effect, and even amplified if I first start them from the trance state. To me getting deep into trance before starting other forms of meditation is key to my practice. I have gone so deep as to start snoring while wide awake, its odd to hear your own snores and not be able to control your breathing as its fully on autopilot.

 

My ex girlfriend couldn't sleep in the same bed as me without having night terrors of cold hands touching her etc, I've seen figures move during deep trance meditation and heard footsteps even when I am alone. So maybe there is something more to it.

 

I have started using hot rock salt lamps and placing them in safe locations around me while I sleep and this seems to have negated any ill effects I've noticed. Sounds crazy and maybe it is. /shrug

 

You are describing serious problems and need to find a teacher that can help you.

 

I agree with what Mike and Ken said. Reading a book and a weekend seminar won't get a person very far.

 

I suggest that you should also think about if your strict dislike of Mike is caused by external influences and not your own heart or anything said.

 

ANY exercise may look and appear to be like any other. But the ATTACHED ENERGETICS make all the difference in the world. Many times what you see is NOT what you get, energetically speaking.

 

I'll admit I only scanned this thread so if I am missing something here please believe that I am not judging or attacking you but only trying to help.

[Creation]

...secondly, a lot of practices I have seen that are popular in the west are nothing more than posession by spirits/jinns. These kind of practices have the common theme of emphasising "letting go" and going into "emptiness" from the very beginning since these are the states of the psych when outside influences can get into people. All authentic Daoist practices progress from youwei to wuwei and then to wubuwei. There is no such thing as going into wuwei in the beginning.

Even if there is strong lineage protection behind the practice?

 

I have Stillness Movement in mind, so Ya Mu could you comment on this? You emphasize dropping the mind right from the beginning, correct?

Edited June 14, 2009 by Creation

[Ken]

Even if there is strong lineage protection behind the practice?

 

I have Stillness Movement in mind, so Ya Mu could you comment on this? You emphasize dropping the mind right from the beginning, correct?

 

I was speaking in general terms the charateristics of the practices, but there is always expcetion to the rule. One also needs to consider other aspects of the lineage, like the teacher, their philosophy etc..

[Ya Mu]

Even if there is strong lineage protection behind the practice?

 

I have Stillness Movement in mind, so Ya Mu could you comment on this? You emphasize dropping the mind right from the beginning, correct?

 

Stillness-Movement is its own thing and not really in the classification Ken was referring to. No possession by spirits. In fact, it has one of the stronger methods of protection from this.

[Spirit Ape]

You guys are full of it, you can only learn from a authentic master to acheive anything, funniest thing ive read and MONEY SPINNER!!!

 

People like Buddha found his own way and became enlightened and many others, you want the best energy culitvation method is working with nature, stillness and movement yin yang methods to combine natures forces.

 

Funny sh!t, MPG dont believe the Hype the only thing about a teacher giving you authenticity is if you want to teach there method, including there silly dogma's that go with it.

 

regards

Spirit Ape

[mjjbecker]

..

Edited July 5, 2009 by mjjbecker

[Spirit Ape]

Mixing practices hmm Lama MAX of kunlun does how many diffferent systems to combine his Kunlunsystem, all arts are a combo of other things one has picked up on the way, trialed and error , creating there own system.

 

There is only so many ways to breath, store Qi, release Qi, intent, no intent, soft and hard, working with nature, stars, sun , moon.

 

I understand what you are saying mate, but honestly after a very long time of practicing and teaching Kung Fu, Qi kung, and specialty methods in my arts I TRULY believe that there is basics that all arts share even many advance practices share similarities sometimes different but similar and as long as the practice bring good health I dont believe any of the said practices be it Long Men Pai or the fancy others. If your practice cant help lose weight, have better mental clarity, heal any problems then I doubt your practices will take you to immortality.

 

Just my 2 cents worth regarding this whole topic!

 

Ape

 

P.S This isnt directed at anyone particular...

[matt007]

This thread is