Do Taoists REALLY Have Amazing Longevity?

[Iskote]

...

Edited June 7, 2009 by Iskote

[froggie]

That would be tough to do... how do you know when you are 80% full?

80% full, is that a feeling? or is it the stomach 80% full? i'm not sure how to see it, but would like a better understanding of it. (it's probably difficult to explain)

 

 

the okinawans too! Hara hachi bu= eat until 80 percent full.

[Deepbluesea]

I will mention something that I learned some time ago about longevity and diet, but does not specifically pertain to Taoism. In a book called Blue Zones, researchers found four communities where people lived to be substantially older than the averages of those that surrounded them. If I remember correctly, most were either completely vegetarian or ate very little meat. Other qualities of the people of these blue zones were that they have a very strong sense of community, individual purpose, and a strong sense of spirituality. I don't think that the book mentioned anything about internal martial arts.

[11:33]

Ershoff divided laboratory rats into three groups. The first ate a basic diet, fortified with 11 vitamins. The second ate the same diet, along with an additional supply of vitamin B complex. The third ate the original diet, but instead of vitamin B complex received 10 percent of rations as powdered liver.

 

A 1975 article published in Prevention magazine described the experiment as follows: "After several weeks, the animals were placed one by one into a drum of cold water from which they could not climb out. They literally were forced to sink or swim. Rats in the first group swam for an average 13.3 minutes before giving up. The second group, which had the added fortifications of B vitamins, swam for an average of 13.4 minutes. Of the last group of rats, the ones receiving liver, three swam for 63, 83 and 87 minutes. The other nine rats in this group were still swimming vigorously at the end of two hours when the test was terminated. Something in the liver had prevented them from becoming exhausted. To this day scientists have not been able to pin a label on this anti-fatigue factor."

 

from http://www.westonaprice.org/foodfeatures/liver.html

[DaoChild]

And is there anything about whether or not the rats died of cancer, or lived long at all?

 

I've gone from eating over 200g of protein a day (bodybuilder diet for weight lifting), to now COMPLETELY vegetarian (technically vegan, since I don't like dairy or eat eggs). I haven't had any weight declines or strength declines..

 

Of course, this is only anecdotal.

[11:33]

Eat all the veggies you want, but eat your liver!

 

I eat my liver so I can be gangsta like those rats.

 

...

 

Hehehe... How long have you been vegan for? The body uses up its stored vitamins and minerals, so you don't notice any depletions until months or a couple years have gone by, once the stores run low.

Edited June 7, 2009 by 11:33

[Ramon25]

11:33 we are very different from rats in the way that food and metabolism dance together VERY DIFFERENT so that is of little relavence, But Dao child We are not vegan animals. There are few purely vegan animals as most eat insects and bugs but thats beside the point. NO animal on earth is attempting to do what VEGANS are trying to do. There are herbovores, frugovores, ruminators Ect there Are no animals that do a combination of all the above Like Vegans. Second the only thing that remotley allows you to survive is civilization as there is no way that people living in nature could survive on a VEGAN diet. Why? Becuase fruit does not grow year long only seasonaly, vegtables are pour sources of calories and macronutrients, nuts again same thing as fruit. Grains well thats a different story but they are not good for you so. No culture besides the hindu indians are vegans, humans did not eveolve on vegatation, We have these big brains because we started eating meat.

Right now I can point Out about a dozen biological adaptions to meat and few if any to vegetation. This diet is only possible in an unnatural world as it is an unnatural diet. Meat does not cause cancer if you were asking that question regarding the rats.

all the best

[Deepbluesea]

And is there anything about whether or not the rats died of cancer, or lived long at all?

 

I've gone from eating over 200g of protein a day (bodybuilder diet for weight lifting), to now COMPLETELY vegetarian (technically vegan, since I don't like dairy or eat eggs). I haven't had any weight declines or strength declines..

 

Of course, this is only anecdotal.

 

 

I like the question! And I am guessing you don't have the answer. Whether or not it was cancer I don't care. But this post was specifically about longevity. It sounds great that eating liver seems to have this effect in rats, and hopefully something similar in humans, but it says nothing about longevity. Which has more energy, a stick of dynamite or a log of wood? The dynamite expends a lot of energy very quickly, but the wood burns slowly for a long time.

 

Ramon, I am trying to trend toward vegetarian, I truly think that it is much more healthy. I can't really figure out how your argument of vegetarianism wouldn't work in other circumstances, it only works because we can ship ripe fruit and vegetables from all over the world very quickly. To some extent the same can be said for meat eaters. I lived for some time where the only meat I ate was wild. I hunted, I gutted, I skinned, I butchered. Personally I never liked it. I never enjoyed taking the life of another being. I didn't enjoy bleeding it and putting my hands inside its warm body to gut it and finally to butcher it, it doesn't smell particularly good, it doesn't feel real good either. I also raised hogs for a while. Its not much fun sprinkling a little food on the ground so it drops its head low enough that you can stick a handgun between its ears and pull the trigger. When you miss the brain and it doesn't drop immediately it really, really sucks.

 

My point is that in today's society, if meat wasn't shipped in and conveniently packaged on styrofoam trays at FoodDog, and people were forced to "get their hands dirty" I think there would be a lot more vegetarians.

 

But I have brought it back away again from a question regarding longevity. My apologies.

[mYTHmAKER]

Eat all the veggies you want, but eat your liver!

 

I eat my liver so I can be gangsta like those rats.

 

...

 

Hehehe... How long have you been vegan for? The body uses up its stored vitamins and minerals, so you don't notice any depletions until months or a couple years have gone by, once the stores run low.

 

Hehehe vegetarian 40 years

[Ramon25]

Well with all do respect that point is pointless because just about wherever you go there is wild life all year round that can be hunted OR meat can be dried and preserved. Compared to vegetation meat is higher in calories so it will kepp you alive longer and ONE animal just ONE can sustain human life.SUCH as living off buffalo (more bang for your buck), Organs are VERY high in Vitamins and minerals, ALOT higher than any plant. NO one plant can sustain human life. So that whole vergatarian idea of food being shipped as being the same as game/meat is not really A good comparison. Also your idea about getting your hands dirty is relative becuase i you were a human needing to eat meat to survive, were raised to do so and your concept of spirituality was different then it would be second nature to you just like taking a bath as it is and was to many meat eating societies. I trully mean no disrespect by pointing out your point has no ground to stand under.

All the best

 

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=htt...sa%3DN%26um%3D1

 

This guy is 55 and has been a CARNIVORE or MEATATARIAN for 20 years. Health is very acheivable without vegtables.

[Zhuo Ming-Dao]

Also your idea about getting your hands dirty is relative becuase i you were a human needing to eat meat to survive, were raised to do so and your concept of spirituality was different then it would be second nature to you just like taking a bath as it is and was to many meat eating societies. I trully mean no disrespect by pointing out your point has no ground to stand under.

 

I would beg to differ on this point. The Buddhist and Jain idea of vegetarianism (which appeared before the masses picked it up in Hinduism) was originally a radically new idea. When the Buddha preached about vegetarianism, this was not a wide spread idea. People were as likely to disavow all food as they were to turn away from meat in particular. And yet the idea of karuna (compassion) still appeared.

 

Someone, in a society like the one you mentioned, was still able to say that the act of taking away the life of another being was intrinsically wrong. And logically it is not a big step to say that since we value the life of humans, we should then also extend that value, that sympathy, to other mammals, etc. The Jains went so far as to bar men from harming even an insect, least it generate bad karma for you. This could be taken to its utmost extreme, as it is at the highest level of Jainist practice, where the person stops eating anything whatsoever (except chi ).

 

I am not advocating this perspective. Nor do I personally practice vegetarianism. I am just startled that some people would take such a one sided perspective on an issue which clearly has more at stake than simple economics or feasibility (and you must admit that your "example" is unrealistic even in an ancient society, since vegetarianism has been around throughout the world for many thousands of years longer than the packaging and shipping methods that you cited, and it still worked just fine). At stake here is spiritual compassion; the ability to see the divine in another being and choose that you would rather not snuff it and thousands of others like it out just to satisfy your pallet.

 

You could also, as I think you were trying to do, argue that it is unnatural to not eat meat, and denying yourself this is to go against your biological nature and to remove yourself from the natural order. This is a fine argument for someone living in a hunter-gatherer tribe who is a vital component of the food chain. This is not such a tenable argument for one who lives in a society where animals are grown and harvested as a commodity to be slaughtered rather than as an independent, living being worthy of some form of respect.

[11:33]

At stake here is spiritual compassion; the ability to see the divine in another being and choose that you would rather not snuff it and thousands of others like it out just to satisfy your pallet.

 

...

 

You could also, as I think you were trying to do, argue that it is unnatural to not eat meat, and denying yourself this is to go against your biological nature and to remove yourself from the natural order. This is a fine argument for someone living in a hunter-gatherer tribe who is a vital component of the food chain. This is not such a tenable argument for one who lives in a society where animals are grown and harvested as a commodity to be slaughtered rather than as an independent, living being worthy of some form of respect.

 

Well, I would like to point out that there are things in animal products humans function best consuming. I personally was vegan and then vegetarian and it doesn't work for me. Through reading about traditional diets (Weston A Price / Sally Fallon) I've improved my health.

 

So it isn't "just to satisfy your pallet"! That's the point. It is to live a healthy life like we're supposed to. Vegetarianism is not the majority diet because its not natural. People naturally crave animal products. Isn't that what wu wei is about, being natural?

 

Would you feed your pet lizard wheat flakes? No, because while you may see it as the compassionate thing to do, you are actually harming your pet lizard.

 

I had a Jewish friend years ago who told me that in traditional Jewish towns they picked the most compassionate person to be the butcher.

[Guest paul walter]

Well, I would like to point out that there are things in animal products humans function best consuming. I personally was vegan and then vegetarian and it doesn't work for me. Through reading about traditional diets (Weston A Price / Sally Fallon) I've improved my health.

 

So it isn't "just to satisfy your pallet"! That's the point. It is to live a healthy life like we're supposed to. Vegetarianism is not the majority diet because its not natural. People naturally crave animal products. Isn't that what wu wei is about, being natural?

 

Would you feed your pet lizard wheat flakes? No, because while you may see it as the compassionate thing to do, you are actually harming your pet lizard.

 

I had a Jewish friend years ago who told me that in traditional Jewish towns they picked the most compassionate person to be the butcher.

 

 

 

The Weston A Price research has led to Metabolic Typing which is basically a way of catergorising what level of macro-nutrients (protein,carbs,fats) the bodies of different people need. Of course there is much more 'to it ' than this. One of the 'types' is low-protein/high carb which essentially neccessitates the adoption of vegetarian diet. As far as I can see research conclusions into vege diets is really only JUST beginning in the scientific literature. This as well as better qualities/different types of foods becoming available to us and more info out there probably puts people at an advantage if they want to be vege today than when I became veg. Paul.

[WhiteTiger]

Imho, I believe that longevity is mostly genetic.

Maybe.

Taoist ways of life merely incorporate a healthy diet, exercise and stretching, and a relaxed, happy mindset.

More interesting super traditionally, as you age your body goes through energetic changes and your mind develops a certain way. Chinese as well as other cultures, often times have their children grown up in a culture that is already so close to these religious practices called Taoism or Hinduism. By the time one is 7 or 8 years old. Keeping strong to there energy and having a strong foundation from the culture they grew up in not to mention the family they grew up in. When your environment is living right close by to a monastery or temple and at a young age you decide to integrate yourself into that sort of life. Living monastic life doing lots of meditation, qigong minimal eating. Will easily gain you a life of living to be 100.

 

I'm like a day behind on this topic. Hope to find time to discuss more things that were raised. Unfortunately dispelling ignorance can not be the highlight of my time spent talking here.

 

A Confucian practice of helping someone out is making sure that you understand the situation well enough before trying to help someone out. You must fully understand how to help the person out which allows you to be successful in such matters. It definately isn't easy to attempt to dispel one of ignorance.

 

Peace,

wt

Edited June 7, 2009 by WhiteTiger

[DaoChild]

We have these big brains because we started eating meat.

Right now I can point Out about a dozen biological adaptions to meat and few if any to vegetation. This diet is only possible in an unnatural world as it is an unnatural diet. Meat does not cause cancer if you were asking that question regarding the rats.

all the best

 

Uh.. big brains because we started eating meat?

 

Few adaptations to vegetation? How about the length of our digestive tract, which is much more furrowed and long (for increased surface area for absorption) than the normally short digestive tracts of carnivores. How about the fact that we have no "carnassial" teeth , which distinguish an animal as an actual carnivore. We most certainly are omnivores, I think we can agree on that.

[freesun]

People naturally crave animal products.

 

I do not, nor have ever craved meat products. If I did, I would consume meat, but I really don't. I do not think it is inherent in the human species to require or necessarily crave meat.

[11:33]

freesun,

 

You aren't the human specie, you are just one person. To assume that every other person won't crave meat, or doesn't biologically need it, just because you don't is too much of a stretch. For thousands and thousands or years our species developed eating meat. Your body may not want meat, but many many many people have different feelings on this.

 

Ahahahahha. We got sidetracked from "Do Taoists Really Have Extreme Longevity? Or is it exaggerated?"

[Ramon25]

You know 11:33 i would love to see a taoist that

lives a relaxed life (like many taoist did) without alot of wordly responsability

avoids grains

eats meat

practices martial arts (tougher ones)

Chi gung

Chinese medicicne (herbs, massage, accupressure, acupunture)

Breathing exercises

some nei gong

study's daoist philosophy's and arts

regulates sex life (properly) without some lofty goal except good health

 

Then with all of the above covered we can see a 120 year old BUT how many actually do All that?

[DaoChild]

freesun,

 

You aren't the human specie, you are just one person. To assume that every other person won't crave meat, or doesn't biologically need it, just because you don't is too much of a stretch. For thousands and thousands or years our species developed eating meat. Your body may not want meat, but many many many people have different feelings on this.

 

Ahahahahha. We got sidetracked from "Do Taoists Really Have Extreme Longevity? Or is it exaggerated?"

 

And for millions of years before that we weren't eating meat .

 

Regardless, I think that it seems to be more chance concerning how long Taoists live. It really seems to be as much chance as is inherent in a normal population of people.. genetics, lifestyle choices, diet, and so on. Taoists are famous for their longevity, but I still don't even hear too many stories of people living to 100.

 

On the other hand, shaolin monks must be aching with arthritis by 60 after taking so many blows to the body

[Ramon25]

http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/carn_herb_comparison.html

 

We are not herbovores

[WhiteTiger]

First off let me say that I'm not interested in agruing or debating just causally questioning and talking politely.

It is to live a healthy life like we're supposed to.

What is a healthy life?

I'm sure their are many people not worthy of living a healthy life.

People naturally crave animal products. Isn't that what wu wei is about, being natural?

I don't naturally crave animal products.

What is a craving in your definition?

I have no want, desire nor craving in definition to eat meat or fish.

I had a Jewish friend years ago who told me that in traditional Jewish towns they picked the most compassionate person to be the butcher.

Actually I'm Jewish. I was raised religious. American Jewish religious, if you can call that very religious. I was way more religious than many many and I was always around extreme religious Jews.

To use such a story out of context sorry does not prove anything.

In contrary in as defined by you "Traditional Jewish towns" picked the most compassionate person to be the butcher. I'm not sure why your Jewish friend told you that and why. Although I will say meat cost lots and lots of money in the old days. A compassionate butcher means a butcher not so strict on the price of there meats. I hope you get what I'm implying.

 

Peace,

wt

Edited June 8, 2009 by WhiteTiger

[11:33]

Yeah, I am not trying to "prove" anything. My Jewish friend was diehard, he wore finny clothes and all that jazz.

[Jadespear]

Hahahaha, the classic inquiry of an awe inspired mind.  Can it really be?????   

 

Yes.  It can.  Miracles abound in our existence.  

 

Consider this story, one that many people know:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Ching-Yuen

 

[Desmonddf]

On 06/06/2009 at 2:04 AM, 11:33 said:

Just wondering what you all think of all the mention of this or that Taoist is 130, or whatever. Do real Taoists actually live this long? Or is it some form of cultural exaggeration done to venerate the wise and elderly?

 

If they do live that long, then what do you think most contributes to that long life? Preferably with some evidence to back up the reason why you think it

 

One thing that concerns me are the monastic vegetarian even VEGAN diets. Vegan diets just plain aren't good for people. There's so much science to back this up, so for me it puts some of the Taoist stuff into question for me. Maybe these vegan diets are giving them amazing longevity, but making them very weak in the process? I know that calorie restriction is a known scientific method of extending lifespan, so maybe?

 

All the Best,

11:33

 

Depends on what you call "real taoists".

 

There're plenty of people who practice and/or believe daoism and they do not live so long. While some people who do not practice these kinds of systems live long and healthy.

 

 

[gendao]

7 minutes ago, Jadespear said:

Hahahaha, the classic inquiry of an awe inspired mind.  Can it really be?????   

 

Yes.  It can.  Miracles abound in our existence.  

 

Consider this story, one that many people know:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Ching-Yuen

I read that was a multigenerational hoax - where the son posed as his father...