Buddhism transcends the Tao

[Siliconvalley1]

yes, my views have changed. I'm not a permanent entity, always changing. evolving.

 

 

 

Well, I agree with what you said earlier ...

 

I hope you continue to "evolve" but without making statements which you cannot later retract ... Also, as you accept you are still "evolving", why are you so violently protecting your current belief apparatus which may change later or even simply drop off? You were arguing on the other side of the fence an year ago, your position has now changed but not the argument. Is there not a lesson here? Not just for you but for many of us

Edited July 2, 2009 by Siliconvalley1

[Sunya]

Well, I agree with what you said earlier ...

 

I hope you continue to "evolve" but without state things which you cannot later retract ... Also, as you accept you are still "evolving", why are you so violently protecting your current belief apparatus which may change later or even simply drop off?

 

 

I was just really inspired by Alan Watts at the time, he's a pretty all roads to one goal kinda guy. but past 6 months i've gone deeper and feel like i've understood some subtleties that i've missed before. using the analogy that I previously used (that I got from Alan Watts, which he got from Zen). fingers pointing at the moon, the moon being the indescribable and the fingers being the "way", what I realized is that the realization of the moon depends on the finger! there are different levels of "moon". this is expressed quite well in the article "Recognizing the different phases of insight" here http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/

 

I don't think there is any evolution unless you can go back and regret saying something. if you, looking back on yourself, agree with everything you've said or done, wheres the evolution? we are always changing, some for the better, some for the worse. I like to think i'm changing for the better.

 

you said yourself in the other thread that you don't think Buddhism and Hinduism are talking about the same thing, so why would you agree with what i said there?

 

 

but anyway, this has nothing to do with what Wayfarer is talking about. and that's what I was addressing.. not whether or not Buddhism is the best. you would know from studying 8 months with the Gelugpas that everything he said was wrong, so why pick a fight for no reason?

Edited July 2, 2009 by mikaelz

[Siliconvalley1]

you would know from studying 8 months with the Gelugpas that everything he said was wrong, so why pick a fight for no reason?

 

Eight years rather, but the Advaitins or Vedantins (even the non-dual schools) in general have been accused similarly as well. Are the accusations totally inappropriate, no - are they fully correct - no again. It's all really perspective and how one sees it. At different stages, different realizations come and there probably is no practical use in fighting them, classifying them hierarchially or stop looking for newer horizons. But is it not possible to accomplish that effort towards what we might think is evolution with least friction with oneself, the environment and the Tao? Probably that is where compassion fits in. Hevajra says: Refining leads to compassion and compassion refines further.

 

I am not picking a fight really ... neither digging to find old, wise sayings just ran into your old post while looking for a Taoist quote of Lin's.

Edited July 2, 2009 by Siliconvalley1

[Wayfarer64]

Wow... a Buddhist being a tuff guy!

 

Not an apt challange but at least it was fiesty!

 

So rare (and happy) a glimps at a deep & loving nature so well evolved as to cast aspersions about Taoism on a Taoist site and blithely continue in ardent rudeness...

 

What a relief to find a deeply human and unrealized voice of hostility claiming to be on the Buddist path- we get them all here...

[ZenStatic]

Wow... a Buddhist being a tuff guy!

 

Not an apt challange but at least it was fiesty!

 

So rare (and happy) a glimps at a deep & loving nature so well evolved as to cast aspersions about Taoism on a Taoist site and blithely continue in ardent rudeness...

 

What a relief to find a deeply human and unrealized voice of hostility claiming to be on the Buddist path- we get them all here...

 

Yeah, there is also the kind that obviously can't read here too.

 

Welcome to The Tao Bums discussion forum. This is an informal community created to discuss Tao (Dao), particularly as is expressed in key philosophical texts such as the well known Tao Te Ching of Lao Tzu, health and cultivation practices such as Tai Chi and Qigong (Chi Kung), nonconceptual meditation approaches such as Zuowang (sitting and forgetting), and also the historical developments of Taoism as the bona fide Chinese religion of Taoist priests and shamans. Don't let this intro scare you though. Most of us are syncretic at heart. Discussion is encouraged to wander eclectically across a wide range of spiritual thought and practice, whether Buddhist, Yogic, Tantric, Judaic, Advaitic, Christian, Islamic, Shamanic, Occult, "New Age", Integral... As long as you are up for a good time, you're welcome to discuss your path. Though we can get rowdy at times, we all do our best to keep it civil. We are, almost as a rule, rather strange, but we have good hearts and even better senses of humor. If you are not already a member, registration is a three step process. First create a username for yourself. Make sure you use a valid email address because, next step, check your email and validate your email address. The final step to full membership; go to The Lobby forum and create a new post introducing yourself to the group, and telling us a little about yourself. It's just a little ritual we have here, your post can be as short or as long as you'd like. Again, welcome to The Tao Bums.

 

This is NOT a strictly taoist site, and in fact, most of the people on this site that like to sit and bitch so much about it, shouldn't really even be called taoists huh?

 

Why is it that the times every few weeks or so I decide to come look around here, I find more posts of people trying to puff their ego than trying to learn or teach? Seems as though sean's labor of love is being turned rotten by some bad apples.

[Wayfarer64]

Yeah, there is also the kind that obviously can't read here too.

This is NOT a strictly taoist site, and in fact, most of the people on this site that like to sit and bitch so much about it, shouldn't really even be called taoists huh?

 

 

Why is it that the times every few weeks or so I decide to come look around here, I find more posts of people trying to puff their ego than trying to learn or teach? Seems as though sean's labor of love is being turned rotten by some bad apples.

 

1st-

Not strictly anything -(thanks Sean!)... but why come to be disparaging?

 

2nd

Timing is everything!

 

it sure has changed...almost 40,000 folks on board in one way or another, so there is one heck of a lot more to wade through now...I get riled by it obviously...

 

still it remains a great source of extended contact with many many wonderful folks...

 

love to all- Pat

[Sunya]

I was not hostile, I simply said that everything you said about Buddhism is wrong and pointed you to Wikipedia so you can learn about Buddhism if you truly desire to do so.

[Mal]

I miss all the cool threads 8 pages is going to take me a while to catch up but in the meantime anyone read this in the Hua Hu Ching?

 

Forty-Eight

 

Do you wish to free yourself of mental and emotional knots and become one with the Tao? If so, there are two paths available to you.

 

The first is the path of acceptance. Affirm everyone and everything. Freely extend your goodwill and virtue in every direction, regardless of circumstances. Embrace all things as part of the Harmonious Oneness, and then you will begin to perceive it.

 

The second path is that of denial. Recognize that everything you see and think is a falsehood, an illusion, a veil over the truth. Peel all the veils away, and you will arrive at the Oneness.

 

Though these paths are entirely different, they will deliver you to the same place: spontaneous awareness of the Great Oneness. Once you arrive there, remember: it isn't necessary to struggle to maintain unity with it. All you have to do is participate in it

[Wayfarer64]

I was not hostile, I simply said that everything you said about Buddhism is wrong and pointed you to Wikipedia so you can learn about Buddhism if you truly desire to do so.

 

you presume foolishly... I have lectured at Princeton University about topics we discuss here. If you think wiki is the way to go- thats great it'll save yr folks a bundle in real education...

 

 

That you do not agree with my take on Buddhism is fine with me - that you claim it is wrong because you do not see it that way is just sad.

 

The religiosity of this nonsense is bothersome.

 

Meditate and awaken - there is nothing else required of you if you claim to be a seeker, then seek -

 

the journey is only within you - reading will do little to help most of us...

[Sunya]

you presume foolishly... I have lectured at Princeton University about topics we discuss here. If you think wiki is the way to go- thats great it'll save yr folks a bundle in real education...

That you do not agree with my take on Buddhism is fine with me - that you claim it is wrong because you do not see it that way is just sad.

 

The religiosity of this nonsense is bothersome.

 

Meditate and awaken - there is nothing else required of you if you claim to be a seeker, then seek -

 

the journey is only within you - reading will do little to help most of us...

 

 

you lectured at Princeton University about Buddhism? I highly doubt that. though Wikipedia isn't the best resource, it's still enough to quell your silly ideas about Buddhism as rejecting life, being pessimistic, and somehow misunderstanding the Tao.

 

it's not that I don't agree with you, it's that Buddhism doesn't agree with you.

 

you misunderstand the whole point of Buddhism, it's not about flowing with life and being one and all of that.. its about being realistic, understanding suffering and its causes. the Buddha was not a pessimistic spoiled brat as you claim, he was just like us. delusional, attached, enjoying sense pleasures, grasping at an illusory self but then he woke up. it's as simple as that.

 

reading isn't so bad, many have already gone the journey with success and reading their accounts and advice gives much to the seeker. making arbitrary judgments about a philosophy you have no understanding of and thinking you know everything can hardly be called "awakened", so why don't you awaken first and then give that sort of advice to others, my friend.

 

I'm not awakened, but I know Buddhism pretty well so I can safely say you have no clue what you are talking about, Princeton University or not. Taoism on the other hand, I don't doubt your knowledge, so I won't go saying something silly as Taoists grasp at a self by wishing for eternal immortality and bliss... because such generalized speculation is ignorant and I clearly don't know Taoism well enough to say that.

[林愛偉]

A very good post indeed.

 

 

 

 

We started a discussion to discuss the differences and similarities between Advaita and Buddhism and the discussion also paved way for differences between Taoism and Buddhism. Some of the claims made by our Buddhist brothers are these:

 

- Tao Te Ching is the most mis-translated work ever. I asked Thusness once to look through about 100 Tao Te Ching sample English translations of Chapter 1, and he said only 1 or 2 can make it, most just seem silly and off the mark.

 

- According to Lao Tzu, the greatest calamity is in having a body, thus he teaches the way of extinguishing the body to attain the realm of wu or non-being. Moreover, the greatest cause that burdens the body is in having knowledge, thus he teaches the way of abandoning knowledge to enter the realm of hsu[v] or emptiness. These teachings are similar to those of the vehicles of `Sraavakas and Pratyekabuddhas. He is like a Pratyekabuddha because he having lived in the time before Buddhism came to China, realized the truth of non-being by contemplating the changing nature of the world. Judging from the fact that he regards emptiness, non-being, and tzu-jan[w] or spontaneity as the final principles, his teachings are heterodox. But judging from the facts that his heart was full of compassion for the salvation of the world and that he attained the realm in which man and heaven mutually penetrate each other and in which being and non-being mutually reflect each other, he is also like a Bodhisattva. From the viewpoint of experience or skillful means, he was really (a Bodhisattva) appearing in the form of Brahmaa in order to teach the world. From the viewpoint of reality, he was the one who had attained the samaadhi of emptiness through pure living according to the vehicles of men and heaven.

 

- Also, this idea that Hinduism and Buddhism is included in the Tao is something akin to a view that everything is one. No everything is connected. Buddhism is a path out of Samsara, out of the Tao. Hinduism is a path within Samsara, so one with the Tao.

 

- Brahman, Tao, God, these are all samsaric concepts. We have very intensely deep attachment to these concepts that exist since beginningless time. Freedom from Samsara is much harder than most paths make it out to be. Though the Buddha said his Dharma is so simple a kid could understand it, but he said, "Could" understand it, not "would" understand it.

 

- I have seen the Tao directly, and then I transcended it. Not permanently, but I have that direct experiencing.

The Tao is a cosmic essence, sorry this also is dependently originated and without inherent existence. I realized it was a mistaken interpretation of mystic experience and moved on.

 

. So what really is the use of Taosim?

. A stop gap to get to the Buddhist teachings? Does it help on the way?

. Or are we good directly jumping to the "correct" teaching?

. Is there is a separate audience for these teachings - like a more qualified one for Buddhism?

. Is Tao a concept that is unneeded and the cause of not reaching a state of ultimate non-duality?

. Or, are we really misinterpreting the Tao and Taosim?

 

These can be discussed in the Advaita thread but makes more sense to have a separate one with focus on the Tao.

[Wayfarer64]

you lectured at Princeton University about Buddhism? I highly doubt that. though Wikipedia isn't the best resource, it's still enough to quell your silly ideas about Buddhism as rejecting life, being pessimistic, and somehow misunderstanding the Tao.

 

it's not that I don't agree with you, it's that Buddhism doesn't agree with you.

 

you misunderstand the whole point of Buddhism, it's not about flowing with life and being one and all of that.. its about being realistic, understanding suffering and its causes. the Buddha was not a pessimistic spoiled brat as you claim, he was just like us. delusional, attached, enjoying sense pleasures, grasping at an illusory self but then he woke up. it's as simple as that.

 

reading isn't so bad, many have already gone the journey with success and reading their accounts and advice gives much to the seeker. making arbitrary judgments about a philosophy you have no understanding of and thinking you know everything can hardly be called "awakened", so why don't you awaken first and then give that sort of advice to others, my friend.

 

I'm not awakened, but I know Buddhism pretty well so I can safely say you have no clue what you are talking about, Princeton University or not. Taoism on the other hand, I don't doubt your knowledge, so I won't go saying something silly as Taoists grasp at a self by wishing for eternal immortality and bliss... because such generalized speculation is ignorant and I clearly don't know Taoism well enough to say that.

 

I lectured on Adat - the Indonesion system of respecting many diverse religious/spiritual belief systems under one centralized ( Javan/Islamic) government...Buddhism did not come up -

 

the Indonesians have not had large Buddhist populations for many centuries- tho- Borobudor/ Prambanan are wonderful... Borobudor being one of the largest "Buddhist" temple sites on earth -

 

I have known so many scoundrals who claim to be "Good Christians" and "Good Buddhists " - or Muslems etc etc... the odds are pretty good the one who claims to be a better sort of bloke - will usually turn out to be the most dangerous- and such hubris and arrogance should be exposed & thwarted early on in my experience...

 

The attitude of Buddhists towards their own awareness always seems to be in the "holier than thou" realm of sharing...

 

I have little respect for Christianity or Buddhism or Islam. I see them as each being allowers of very bad behaviors in their followers. Judaism as well- there is always some sort of out - some sort of merit system where in mis deeds can be forgiven...bought off as it were...and such was true under Taoist tyrants as well-

 

To name something as being other than what it is in its entirety does a dis-service... Part of what Buddhism is is as I expressed it because it already has been manifested in reality!

 

Do you think that the victems at Nanking thought the Japanese were being "good Buddhists" as they raped and pillaged?

 

You may argue that it was the Shinto influence that allowed such moral lapses... I think not.

 

Every religion and any other sort of ism has been a dangerous tool in evil mens hands - Buddhism is no different...

 

The start of the danger arises in the hubris exhibited in the title of this thread. In my opinion.

 

Also do not presume to call me yr friend. I choose my friends very carefully.

[contrivedname!]

I lectured on Adat - the Indonesion system of respecting many diverse religious/spiritual belief systems under one centralized ( Javan/Islamic) government...Buddhism did not come up -

 

the Indonesians have not had large Buddhist populations for many centuries- tho- Borobudor/ Prambanan are wonderful... Borobudor being one of the largest "Buddhist" temple sites on earth -

 

I have known so many scoundrals who claim to be "Good Christians" and "Good Buddhists " - or Muslems etc etc... the odds are pretty good the one who claims to be a better sort of bloke - will usually turn out to be the most dangerous- and such hubris and arrogance should be exposed & thwarted early on in my experience...

 

The attitude of Buddhists towards their own awareness always seems to be in the "holier than thou" realm of sharing...

 

I have little respect for Christianity or Buddhism or Islam. I see them as each being allowers of very bad behaviors in their followers. Judaism as well- there is always some sort of out - some sort of merit system where in mis deeds can be forgiven...bought off as it were...and such was true under Taoist tyrants as well-

 

To name something as being other than what it is in its entirety does a dis-service... Part of what Buddhism is is as I expressed it because it already has been manifested in reality!

 

Do you think that the victems at Nanking thought the Japanese were being "good Buddhists" as they raped and pillaged?

 

You may argue that it was the Shinto influence that allowed such moral lapses... I think not.

 

Every religion and any other sort of ism has been a dangerous tool in evil mens hands - Buddhism is no different...

 

The start of the danger arises in the hubris exhibited in the title of this thread. In my opinion.

 

Also do not presume to call me yr friend. I choose my friends very carefully.

 

one of the better posts in this thread, i agree; adat sounds very interesting, i like the premise of: the system of respecting many diverse religious/spiritual belief systems

 

i feel similarly about any ism; dogmatism clouds what can be great tools to greater realization; it seems pretty laughable that people attach to their tools. that tool analogy by enzenvy was great actually despite mickaelz pessimism. think of the bike as your mind... does everyone have the same obscurations? would you try to use a wrench to pump up your tires or a hammer to remove some screws?

 

heh, it seems that some here think buddhism=pedantry

[Gerard]

Read this:

 

http://www.hermitary.com/articles/thudong.html

 

Buddhism can only be understood by walking the path.

 

All the best.

[Marblehead]

Boy! There sure have been a lot of words spoken here. I tried reading all the posts but ended up just scanning most.

 

Actually, I see no point in setting one religion, philosophy, path against another. It is my understanding that Chuang Tzu mentioned the same thing.

 

All paths are good if they lead toward good. This is equally true of philosophies and religions. What is good? For a person to be at peace with his/her Self.

 

Buddhism can only be understood by walking the path.

 

This can be said of any religion/philosophy. It's not about words, it's about walking.

 

Be well!

[Wayfarer64]

[Lucky7Strikes]

Bravo!!

 

Buddhist, Taoist. Who gives?

 

Freeing yourself from the confines of the foolish mind. What more can you ask for?

 

The Path itself is enough.... IMHO

Edited July 8, 2009 by Lucky7Strikes

[Josh Young]

http://www.hermitary.com/articles/thudong.html

I read it and cannot tell the difference between the Buddhism it describes and Brahmanic and Shaivite traditions the Mahabharata describes.

 

The only difference is that there are yoga and martial art aspects to the Hindu traditions of acetic hermitism. The mountain monks in India, Tibet, China and Japan are known to have practiced martial arts and several modern martial arts hail to a founder who is or learned from a wandering acetic monk.

 

Also in some traditions the acetic monks would have scriptures with them and study them in addition to their regular practices, so there was not always a dichotomy between scholarly pursuits and acetic pursuits.

 

But I also contend that Buddha was not a Buddhist anyway and that he only found the truths of the system he was passed, and that he saw through the untruth he was passed.

Edited July 9, 2009 by Josh Young

[Tokoyo Tama]

Do you think that the victems at Nanking thought the Japanese were being "good Buddhists" as they raped and pillaged?

 

You may argue that it was the Shinto influence that allowed such moral lapses... I think not.

 

I haven't gone through the thread as a whole much, but this statement seems pretty far off the line. Mostly wished to voice my opinion, and not start a debate within this thread, but to dismiss the influence of Shinto in the rape of Nanking is HUUGELY oversimplifying and is indicative of possibly grossly misunderstanding the causation of such an event. Just to put one fact out there to connect the two, Shinto and the belief that the emperor descended from amaterasu was a major factor in causing much of the unparalleled actions of the Japanese in WWII. Don't know if that was the best fact linking shinto to the war, but it's the one I'll post.

 

Tried to write a response to the 'good Buddhists' thought you had, but I cannot find a sufficiently distinct point for me to hang on to. I'll say this instead:I've always thought the problem with organized religion was the (almost always eventually corrupt) organization. This is a function of their influence, and thus power, which naturally lends itself to abuse. If any ethos has sufficient sway, there will be horrors done ostensibly in its name.

 

A brief personal opinion on the thread topic: I suspect if one of two paths is ever better, it is likely that only one who has walked far on each, or walks neither, would be able to say which leads where. If we believed ourselves to be on an inferior path, would we walk it?

[Gerard]

I read it and cannot tell the difference between the Buddhism it describes and Brahmanic and Shaivite traditions the Mahabharata describes.

 

The only difference is that there are yoga and martial art aspects to the Hindu traditions of acetic hermitism. The mountain monks in India, Tibet, China and Japan are known to have practiced martial arts and several modern martial arts hail to a founder who is or learned from a wandering acetic monk.

 

Also in some traditions the acetic monks would have scriptures with them and study them in addition to their regular practices, so there was not always a dichotomy between scholarly pursuits and acetic pursuits.

 

But I also contend that Buddha was not a Buddhist anyway and that he only found the truths of the system he was passed, and that he saw through the untruth he was passed.

 

 

Like the blind men arguing over the elephant, Buddhism as been corrupted by Buddha's followers; that is, the sangha. People easily forget that the Buddha was really an ascetic, a wandering being who attained ultimate enlightenment by walking the path, not by reading books and discussing about it.

 

Whether it is Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism, Sufism, Christianism or any other "ism" the final goal is to strengthen the spirit in such way that is able to break through the cycle of reincarnation and transcend all karma. The ascetic path is the quickest method as long as one's karma is ripe.

[Josh Young]

Buddhism as been corrupted by Buddha's followers

I actually view the Buddhism you present as one of these corruptions, thank you for bringing this up. I mean you no offense.

 

People easily forget that the Buddha was really an ascetic, a wandering being who attained ultimate enlightenment by walking the path, not by reading books and discussing about it.

People easily forget Buddha was born a Kashatrya prince, was highly educated in many regards, that he read the scriptures and discussed much about them. If you read the same scriptures you will find that many kings retired to become wandering spiritual ascetics.

Whether it is Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism, Sufism, Christianism or any other "ism" the final goal is to strengthen the spirit in such way that is able to break through the cycle of reincarnation and transcend all karma.

How absurd my belief must seem to you then. For I do not believe in final goals. You say it is about destinations, I am saying it is about the journey.

 

The goals of the organizations meet human agendas, not spiritual ones. No 'ism' functions, for no group approach can work for enlightenment. The operating goals of numerous religions is monetary in nature, or pertains to proselytizing.

 

So then if you break through this so called cycle of reincarnation and escape karma then what?

[Wayfarer64]

Thanks for those thoughts Josh... I agree it is the doing or the path- the search...Harmony is achieved in living Harmoniously the doing becomes the being.

[Stigweard]

This is perhaps a random interjection but it seemed somehow relevant to the current 'vibe'. I was literally having an exchange with a friend of mine on Facebook:

 

"Actually it is funny the whole answer/question thing because, as you say, if you can articulate an answer it is not the Tao. A good friend of mine says, "Answers are dead, the loop is closed ... only questions are alive." So in a way Tao is like a perpetual question, an infinite mystery that we keep exploring even though we know we never be able to unravel its subtlety ... and yet still we journey on. "

[Tao99]

Buddha, wuddha,

Shmuda, pu

 

Buddha a shit ona stick

its true

 

old Linji zen saying

 

[Vajrahridaya]

The Buddha did preach for 40 years, and he clearly tried to start a spiritual tradition based on what he said was an ancient path. He also said that his specific teaching didn't exist on earth at that time. He was so clear about so many things, the stages of the path, the need for insight meditation using dependent origination. He started a monastic and lay tradition.

 

Anyway...