Advaita Vedanta vs Buddhism

[forestofemptiness]

The Tao includes both Advaita and Buddhism. Why all this arguing?

[Sunya]

[evZENy]

The Tao includes both Advaita and Buddhism. Why all this arguing?

 

Exactly :-)

 

it's a debate, not an argument.

 

Since obviously people still like to hang to words:

 

argument > a discussion involving differing points of view; debate.

 

 

The difference between the right word and the almost right word is the difference between lightning and the lightning bug. -Mark Twain

[Sunya]

Exactly :-)

Since obviously people still like to hang to words:

 

argument > a discussion involving differing points of view; debate.

The difference between the right word and the almost right word is the difference between lightning and the lightning bug. -Mark Twain

 

are you bored? you know that there is a difference in connotation between arguing and debating since the former insinuates negative emotions while the latter is more for clearing up a conceptual understanding.

 

nice quote.

Edited May 28, 2009 by mikaelz

[evZENy]

are you bored?

Not at all. Actually dancing on my chair with my headphones on, while reading and drinking some tea.

Of course I know what you mean.

Yet I like more forestofemptiness' and Dwai's points that bunch of non-enlightened people keep on talking about bunch of mentally constructed concepts, which we can only logically and subjectively accept and evaluate.

How can I be bored reading about the different types of No-thingness! :-)

Have a good Now!

Edited May 28, 2009 by evZENy

[bailey]

[Sunya]

Once the whole is divided, the parts need names.

There are already enough names.

One must know when to stop.

Knowing when to stop averts trouble.

Tao in the world is like a river flowing home to the sea. - Laozi, Ch32

 

This is all well and good, but we're stuck in samsara and words are very important.

[Vajrahridaya]

yes and furthermore there is this idea in most mystical traditions that you're on the path, evolution will take you to the goal, the purpose of life is to attain this goal of oneness or unity or whatever, so you'll get there eventually. this implies that the correct view inherently exists, that all you have to do is "let go and with the flow" or just build up a lot of chi and circulate it through the chakras, that this will bring one to ultimate realization. this implies that view is not important

 

but looking at dependent origination, we see that from cause comes effect, so fruit depends on the seed. simply letting go will not bring you to the ultimate fruit of liberation because no seed was planted, which only comes from having right view,

 

 

 

That's exactly right! Which is what the, "All is one" and "All paths lead to the same truth" camp do not understand.

 

This is what the Buddha has taught the entire time. Which is why the Buddha indeed was an elitist.

 

But, Hindus are imperialists, sucking all traditions into their own saying they are all the same is a Hindu dogma, one that I used to be under the mercy of.

 

Enlightenment is NOT inherent, one must recieve the seed of "Right view" which is exactly what the Buddha taught in the 8 fold noble path.

 

Also, this idea that Hinduism and Buddhism is included in the Tao is something akin to a view that everything is one. No everything is connected. Buddhism is a path out of Samsara, out of the Tao. Hinduism is a path within Samsara, so one with the Tao.

 

Anyway, that's just a perspective and not the whole truth of things. But really... all these fortune cookie platitudes will not liberate one from unconscious rebirth, they'll just make one happy for a little while.

 

The thing is, is that Buddhism is not just words (of course it has tons of meditation and chanting methods as well as yoga methods, etc.), these words lead to a subtle understanding of how things work. Things don't work the way everyone explains it. Only a Buddha knows the Truth, and a Buddha is known by the seals, the 4 noble truths, the 8 fold noble path and has realization of dependent origination/emptiness directly.

 

Brahman, Tao, God, these are all samsaric concepts. We have very intensely deep attachment to these concepts that exist since beginningless time. Freedom from Samsara is much harder than most paths make it out to be. Though the Buddha said his Dharma is so simple a kid could understand it, but he said, "Could" understand it, not "would" understand it.

 

Anyway... all the best!

[rex]

I hold steadfast that Brahman and Shunyata and Tao are the same. When one transcends categorical frameworks, the absolute consciousness, which is objectless and is the Ultimate Truth doesn't change based on what the categorical framework says.

 

... I just prefer to see the similarities which transcend the differences, that's all.

In the spirit of finding similarities that transcend differences it is said that if a path has the "Four Seals of Dharma", then that path can also be considered Buddhist irrespective of whether it calls itself Buddhist or even recognised by other Buddhists as such. The four seals are:

 

1) All compounded things are impermanent

2) All emotions are painful

3) All phenomena are empty i.e without inherent existence

4) The peace of Nirvana

 

Is Brahman " ... primordial and unborn awareness, empty in essence and radiant by nature, whose energy is all-pervading"? If so, then that's another step for finding similarities as this is one description of the nature of mind in Dzogchen.

 

This is an excellent thread. Thanks to Dwai for kicking it off and thanks also to xabir2005, mikaelz, Vajrahridaya for their detailed contributions. I'm certainly the better informed for it but not necessarily any the wiser - no reflection on you guys though.

 

Edited for calrity & typos ...

Edited May 28, 2009 by rex

[evZENy]

"People used to ask Buddha again and again, "What happens when one becomes a Buddha? Is he, or is he not? Does the soul exist or not? What will happen when Buddha leaves the body? Where will he be? Will he be somewhere or not?"

And Buddha says, "These questions you don't ask. You simply become a Buddha and see, because whatsoever I say will be wrong."

And he always avoided the temptation of answering such questions."

[xabir2005]

I know this is completely off topic but since there was some discussion about Tao and Taoism here, would like to mention my opinion.

 

According to my friend 'Thusness', and my Buddhist Master and a few other Tibetan Rinpoches and the olden days Zen Masters and many modern Chinese masters, recognise Lao Tzu as an enlightened being (a pratyekabuddha). However, what he really left behind is only 81 verses of his wisdom when he was asked by an official to write something before retreating into the wild, unlike Buddhism which provided a very concise path and teaching -- almost like a science.

 

I would like to add however that Tao Te Ching is the most mis-translated work ever. I asked Thusness once to look through about 100 Tao Te Ching sample English translations of Chapter 1, and he said only 1 or 2 can make it, most just seem silly and off the mark. Thusness used to be a Taoist a long time ago and studied Taoism in Chinese under a Taiwanese Taoist master.

 

From an old conversation with Thusness in 2005:

[23:09] AEN: hi

[23:09] AEN: u used to say lao tzu was enlightened rite?

[23:09] Thusness: yes

[23:10] AEN: how about chuang tzu?

[23:10] AEN: and did tao te ching teach impermanence, conditioned arising, etc?

[23:10] Thusness: not as precise like buddhism. Buddhism almost make it a science.

[23:10] AEN: oic

[23:11] AEN: then how about chuang tzu

[23:11] Thusness: the steps are so precise.

[23:11] AEN: ya

[23:11] AEN: true.. tao te ching is so short

[23:11] AEN: do u read chuang tzu teachings?

[23:11] Thusness: chuang tzu is different, only the no-doing aspect until luminosity is clear.

[23:12] AEN: icic

[23:12] AEN: so

[23:12] Thusness: but lao-tze is deep and profound. What really has been spoken.

[23:12] AEN: is there anyone else in taoism as enlightened as lao tzu

[23:12] AEN: icic..

[23:12] Thusness: nothing really only the 5000 words.

[23:19] Thusness: even with all our experience when reading the text, will make us feel shallow.

[23:19] Thusness: will put us into stillness and at once in line with Tao.

[23:19] Thusness: The Thusness simply flows.

[23:20] Thusness: it is a different approach. But not to belittle tao de jing.

 

 

Zen Master Han Shan:

According to Lao Tzu, the greatest calamity is in having a body, thus he teaches the way of extinguishing the body to attain the realm of wu or non-being. Moreover, the greatest cause that burdens the body is in having knowledge, thus he teaches the way of abandoning knowledge to enter the realm of hsu[v] or emptiness. These teachings are similar to those of the vehicles of `Sraavakas and Pratyekabuddhas. He is like a Pratyekabuddha because he having lived in the time before Buddhism came to China, realized the truth of non-being by contemplating the changing nature of the world. Judging from the fact that he regards emptiness, non-being, and tzu-jan[w] or spontaneity as the final principles, his teachings are heterodox. But judging from the facts that his heart was full of compassion for the salvation of the world and that he attained the realm in which man and heaven mutually penetrate each other and in which being and non-being mutually reflect each other, he is also like a Bodhisattva. From the viewpoint of experience or skillful means, he was really (a Bodhisattva) appearing in the form of Brahmaa in order to teach the world. From the viewpoint of reality, he was the one who had attained the samaadhi of emptiness through pure living according to the vehicles of men and heaven.[11]

Edited May 28, 2009 by xabir2005

[evZENy]

I would like to add however that Tao Te Ching is the most mis-translated work ever.

 

True. Being one of the most translated books as well.

I study the system of Master Waysun Liao, who also has his own translation, based on his lineage. And wrote a fictional book explaining the TTC "Night Nights with the Taoist Master" - discussed in other threads. The book also includes literal translation (at least my edition does).

 

As for the calamity of having body and trying to extinguish it - never heard anything so stupid, sorry!

Haven't the guy ever heard of Taoist practices BASED on the body !?!? Hello?

The Body is seen as the microcosm, reflecting the macrocosm.

Realization is achieved by going inside, by working on internal alchemistry.

You need body for that, right :-)

Someone has been smoking something Buddhist or I don't know what when he wrote it :-)

 

I would say Tao is more body oriented even than Yoga, which only in parts is concerned with the body (mainly as way to cultivate the mind).

Edited May 28, 2009 by evZENy

[steve]

As a personal followup to the Nonduality thread and exchanges thereof with some proponents of "Buddhism is best", I took the question back to a group of wise ones in my other home, http://www.medhajournal.com

 

http://medhajournal.com/index.php?option=c...&Itemid=281

 

The question was answered. At the end (and the reader here might concur with me in in my finding) the answer I came upon was that there is no difference. The differences are those of egos that want to see one greater than the other.

 

In other words, Nirguna Brahman is the same as the Buddhist Ultimate reality.

I agree with that completely...

What is the point of the arguments? Human nature.

 

From a historical perspective, Buddhism is essentially Hinduism stripped of most of it's cultural window dressing for the purposes of exportation. The core elements of Buddhism are basically the same as the core elemets of Advaita Vedanta. The only difference is the window dressing and the words...

[dwai]

That's exactly right! Which is what the, "All is one" and "All paths lead to the same truth" camp do not understand.

 

This is what the Buddha has taught the entire time. Which is why the Buddha indeed was an elitist.

 

But, Hindus are imperialists, sucking all traditions into their own saying they are all the same is a Hindu dogma, one that I used to be under the mercy of.

 

Enlightenment is NOT inherent, one must recieve the seed of "Right view" which is exactly what the Buddha taught in the 8 fold noble path.

 

Also, this idea that Hinduism and Buddhism is included in the Tao is something akin to a view that everything is one. No everything is connected. Buddhism is a path out of Samsara, out of the Tao. Hinduism is a path within Samsara, so one with the Tao.

 

Anyway, that's just a perspective and not the whole truth of things. But really... all these fortune cookie platitudes will not liberate one from unconscious rebirth, they'll just make one happy for a little while.

 

The thing is, is that Buddhism is not just words (of course it has tons of meditation and chanting methods as well as yoga methods, etc.), these words lead to a subtle understanding of how things work. Things don't work the way everyone explains it. Only a Buddha knows the Truth, and a Buddha is known by the seals, the 4 noble truths, the 8 fold noble path and has realization of dependent origination/emptiness directly.

 

Brahman, Tao, God, these are all samsaric concepts. We have very intensely deep attachment to these concepts that exist since beginningless time. Freedom from Samsara is much harder than most paths make it out to be. Though the Buddha said his Dharma is so simple a kid could understand it, but he said, "Could" understand it, not "would" understand it.

 

Anyway... all the best!

 

Bhaja Govindam Moodhamate...

 

 

True. Being one of the most translated books as well.

I study the system of Master Waysun Liao, who also has his own translation, based on his lineage. And wrote a fictional book explaining the TTC "Night Nights with the Taoist Master" - discussed in other threads. The book also includes literal translation (at least my edition does).

 

As for the calamity of having body and trying to extinguish it - never heard anything so stupid, sorry!

Haven't the guy ever heard of Taoist practices BASED on the body !?!? Hello?

The Body is seen as the microcosm, reflecting the macrocosm.

Realization is achieved by going inside, by working on internal alchemistry.

You need body for that, right :-)

Someone has been smoking something Buddhist or I don't know what when he wrote it :-)

 

I would say Tao is more body oriented even than Yoga, which only in parts is concerned with the body (mainly as way to cultivate the mind).

 

Actually that is not entirely correct.

 

Yata Pinde, tata Brahmande (as in the auric egg, thus in the Cosmic egg) is a timeless saying in the Vedic/Yogic tradition.

[Pero]

I agree with that completely...

What is the point of the arguments? Human nature.

 

From a historical perspective, Buddhism is essentially Hinduism stripped of most of it's cultural window dressing for the purposes of exportation. The core elements of Buddhism are basically the same as the core elemets of Advaita Vedanta. The only difference is the window dressing and the words...

 

You haven't read the thread have you? Or perhaps you just see what you want to see.

[dwai]

In the spirit of finding similarities that transcend differences it is said that if a path has the "Four Seals of Dharma", then that path can also be considered Buddhist irrespective of whether it calls itself Buddhist or even recognised by other Buddhists as such. The four seals are:

 

1) All compounded things are impermanent

2) All emotions are painful

3) All phenomena are empty i.e without inherent existence

4) The peace of Nirvana

 

Is Brahman " ... primordial and unborn awareness, empty in essence and radiant by nature, whose energy is all-pervading"? If so, then that's another step for finding similarities as this is one description of the nature of mind in Dzogchen.

 

Edited for calrity & typos ...

 

Nirguna Brahman is emptiness, it is objectless (non-dual) consciousness. There is too much emphasis on this word and that word. What about looking behind the facade of these words at the essence that they are trying to convey?

 

Again, my intention wasn't to claim "my way is better than yours" because only a dogmatic deluded person will say that. We have to understand that all that any tradition can do is give names to concepts and ideas. They are as empty as the ideas and concepts they convey in the truest sense (in light of Higher Truth). The true efficacy of the system is in it's ability to facilitate for the seeker, the ability to transcend the framework, leave it behind and realize Higher truth.

 

Those who understand what categorical frameworks are and understand what dependent origination implies, also understand that dependent origination is as true for the frameworks that name phenomena and objects as it is for the phenomena and objects themselves.

[Pero]

Nirguna Brahman is emptiness, it is objectless (non-dual) consciousness.

 

But emptiness is not consciousness of any kind.

[steve]

You haven't read the thread have you? Or perhaps you just see what you want to see.

No - too long for my limited attention span,

and Yes, I see what I want to see and sometimes, unfortunately, I see what I don't want to see, and sometimes I see what I neither want nor don't want to see...

Edited May 28, 2009 by xuesheng

[forestofemptiness]

Vajrahridaya,

 

When you see the Tao, which you will, then you will see what a foolish statement this is. In fact, you will see how foolish all statements are.

 

Where do you think you are going to?

 

Also, this idea that Hinduism and Buddhism is included in the Tao is something akin to a view that everything is one. No everything is connected. Buddhism is a path out of Samsara, out of the Tao. Hinduism is a path within Samsara, so one with the Tao.

 

 

 

Dwai,

 

As a Buddhist, I agree with everything you say. It is true, but also false because any statement only reveals half the equation. The paths are different, but the end is the same. How can it be otherwise? One can see the Tao shitting on the toilet if the conditions are right.

 

Again, my intention wasn't to claim "my way is better than yours" because only a dogmatic deluded person will say that. We have to understand that all that any tradition can do is give names to concepts and ideas. They are as empty as the ideas and concepts they convey in the truest sense (in light of Higher Truth). The true efficacy of the system is in it's ability to facilitate for the seeker, the ability to transcend the framework, leave it behind and realize Higher truth.

[Siliconvalley1]

You haven't read the thread have you? Or perhaps you just see what you want to see.

 

 

Not much use reading it! So you may as well skip that trouble .. the essence is: Buddhist teachings are the best, why... Dependent Origination...

 

And we all want to see what we want to right? Like you at this very moment ...

[Pero]

No - too long for my limited attention span,

and Yes, I see what I want to see and sometimes, unfortunately, I see what I don't want to see, and sometimes I see what I neither want nor don't want to see...

 

Hahah, me too.

 

Not much use reading it! So you may as well skip that trouble .. the essence is: Buddhist teachings are the best, why... Dependent Origination...

 

Thanks.

 

And we all want to see what we want to right? Like you at this very moment ...

 

Well, actually I see your post on a computer screen instead of a cute girl, so no I'm not seeing what I want to see.

 

 

Why are you posting as SilliconValley1? Forgot your password or what?

[Siliconvalley1]

Edited May 28, 2009 by Siliconvalley1

[Vajrahridaya]

Nirguna Brahman is emptiness, it is objectless (non-dual) consciousness. There is too much emphasis on this word and that word. What about looking behind the facade of these words at the essence that they are trying to convey?

 

Again, my intention wasn't to claim "my way is better than yours" because only a dogmatic deluded person will say that. We have to understand that all that any tradition can do is give names to concepts and ideas. They are as empty as the ideas and concepts they convey in the truest sense (in light of Higher Truth). The true efficacy of the system is in it's ability to facilitate for the seeker, the ability to transcend the framework, leave it behind and realize Higher truth.

 

Those who understand what categorical frameworks are and understand what dependent origination implies, also understand that dependent origination is as true for the frameworks that name phenomena and objects as it is for the phenomena and objects themselves.

 

Objectless consciousness is considered an object in Buddhism and a phenomena to be emptied. It's a very subtle attachment to inherent existence. Also, Brahman implies that all beings are it. That's not the same as saying all beings are inherently empty of abiding self.

 

Your getting the dogma label wrong. It's actually a Hindu dogma that's deluded that says that all paths lead to the same truth. Because it comes from a certain frame work that all paths have the same source, a God, a singular essence.

 

This is just not so in Buddhism.

 

Dwai, you have not understood a single thing anyone has said. It has nothing to do with looking past the words, it has to do with understanding where the words are pointing to and you have fallen short from understanding.

[evZENy]

Emptiness here, emptiness there, but the infinite universe stands always before your eyes.

Infinitely large and infinitely small; no difference, for definations have vanished and no boundaries are seen.

So too with being and non-being.

Don't waste time in doubts and arguments that have nothing to do with this.

One thing, all things: move among and intermingle, without distinction.

To live in this realization is to be without anxiety about non-perfection.

To live in this faith is the road to non-duality, because the non-dual is one with the trusting mind.

Words! The Way is beyond language, for in it there is no yesterday, no tomorrow, no today.

 

 

Hsin Hsin Ming (Verses on the Faith Mind by The 3rd Zen Patriarch, Sengstau)

[Vajrahridaya]

"People used to ask Buddha again and again, "What happens when one becomes a Buddha? Is he, or is he not? Does the soul exist or not? What will happen when Buddha leaves the body? Where will he be? Will he be somewhere or not?"

And Buddha says, "These questions you don't ask. You simply become a Buddha and see, because whatsoever I say will be wrong."

And he always avoided the temptation of answering such questions."

 

He actually didn't avoid such questions all the time, only at certain times to certain people.

 

I wish I was a scholar, I'd find the places in the Pali Suttas where he talks about such things. He also talks about no abiding cosmic essence in the suttas. He talks about personal realization where one's consciousness is uncompounded through understanding dependent origination and thus shines all around, but it's not an abiding essence that is shared by everyone.

 

He talks plenty about if the soul inherently exists when he talks about anatta of course. He considered the soul to be dependently originated as well.