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Hello everyone! I'm curious about how many people here studies or can read ancient chinese. How did you learn? Can you recommend any accessible textbooks? And if you've had a lot of experience reading ancient texts....how transparent are there in the original? I know from reading the greek magical papyrii and some tantras that the practices themselves are oftentimes veiled and cryptic. Is that the case here too? Also I'm curious if are there any lesser known texts in daoism on energy cultivation and qigong. Stuff in a similar vein as the Yijin Jing (tendon changing classic). Cheers

Hello everyone! This is my first time ever posting on an online forum : ) I tried to see if something like this had been posted somewhere else but I couldn't find anything recent. I came to this site because I have been trying to find a teacher in the Mo Pai school of Nei Gong, or something very similar. Like probably all of you I've seen that famous old documentary video of John Chang working wonders with his Qi. I read "the magus of java" as well. And again like probably all of you, I've desired that kind of spiritual aptitude/adeptness for a very long time. I started researching the mo pai levels and trying to find information on practice, but I find info that is either untrustworthy or comes from a teacher I know nothing about. And even if the practices in a book are correct...well, i've been at the spiritual practice game long enough to know that having a teacher is crucial for these things to work right and come alive in the right way. Besides, anyone who's truly been practicing these things knows that they can be dangerous without proper guidance. I want a flesh and blood teacher who can teach me up to "level 4" in this system, or again something very similar to it. I'm at the point in my life where I can afford to travel to study with a true teacher, and I can think of no better use of my time and finances. Even if John Chang no longer accepts students, surely some of his students do, or his students' students. These types of practices - manifestation and influencing the world through one's own inner energy, are very close to my heart. I was especially moved by John Chang's ability to heal with this power. I've read of such things in the yogic and tantric traditions, but no one ever discusses techniques to make it happen. A little bit about my spiritual background. I've studied and practiced meditation in the soto zen, tibetan buddhist, and kashmiri shaivism styles. Currently I am very invested in the meditation and energetic practices of kashmiri tantra. I participate in an active native american sweat lodge community, and I've practiced hatha yoga for many years, as well as greek hermeticism. Although I've practiced qigong and studied chinese medicine and daoism, it's admittedly been more of a backburner thing until several months ago.In terms of martial arts, I did TKD for a while as a kid, but haven't followed up much. Several months ago I began doing Bagua in the Ma Gui lineage. My teacher's just had me doing circle walking and palm changes - less martial stuff for now as the tendon changing just starts out. But this Mo Pai and Nei Gong stuff feels like what I've been looking for all along. You know the feeling. For work, I ply my living as a classical astrologer. I majored in philosophy and am a huge ancient language nerd. Thank you so much for taking the time to read this. TL;DR Do you know of any authentic teachers of Mo Pai Nei Gong or something similar who are currently accepting students?

Hi All I'll do my best to explain what brought me here. I began having energetic experiences about 3 years ago through the practice of the Wim Hof Method. His method (for those who don't know) combines breath work with progressive cold exposure. During this practice I would experience sensations best described as "magnetic" in my hands, belly and head during the breath holds. I also began to experience light behind my forehead when I had my eyes closed. I continued this practice for a while but at a certain point I felt that it was a little too frenetic and jarring to my system. I kind of modified the breath practices by slowing down the breathing and limited the cold exposure. A year later I went on a 5 day silent meditation retreat in the Insight tradition. My experience on this retreat was profound and afterwards I began to take meditation very seriously. After about 4 or 5 months of diligent practice I began to have extremely intense bouts of crying and emotional release. These experiences were often accompanied by an intense magnetic sensation in my chest. I had a history of trauma and had battled depression for most of my life... steady meditation practice was essentially releasing the valve on my emotional pressure cooker. I was very overwhelmed by these experiences, but I eventually found a buddhist teacher and a therapist that practiced western psychology within a buddhist framework who I am still working with. These experiences really threw a huge curveball into my life, and the last couple of years have been full of really intense transition and emotional release. As I began to gain some confidence with all the energetic experiences I had been having, I wanted to learn a way to work with them, so I started learning to practice Donna Eden's Energy Medicine, and eventually I enrolled at an Eastern Medicine school to learn Massage Therapy. My most recent experience with the subtle energy happened a few months ago during a moment of intimacy with my partner. My body began convulsing, I started sobbing and I was thrown into intense flashbacks from childhood as well as "memories" that I could not recall from this lifetime. This went on for about 4 hours and was accompanied by many intense visual experiences. Since this has happened, my body has continued tremoring and I've felt a build up of energy in my pelvic floor that is sometimes incredibly difficult to manage - either causing a "hemorrhoid" feeling or intense and difficult to manage sexual energy. A few times, I've been able to draw the energy up to my crown and back down through breathing, resulting in some pretty blissful experiences, but I haven't been able to do it consistently and for the most part this energy has been very difficult to manage. So I'm here looking for some recommendations for practice - While I do have a background in the Martial Arts (Kenpo) I don't have a ton of experience with Qi Gong... I've taken a few classes and read some Mantak Chia but I've never dove into the practice, I find it difficult to learn these things through books. I live in the NY area and am definitely interested in meeting teachers or other practitioners who my experiences resonate with. I'm also happy to have a place to share these experiences where people will have more understanding and experience with what I'm going through.

I want to talk about my experience with Heartfulness. Now, I'm not talking about the form from Mindfulness in the book "Cultivating Heartfulness" that I've seen spoken about around Daobums, but something different that has completely changed the way I cultivate. Most of us are practitioners or at least know of the refining processes of cultivating and internal alchemy. We all know it to be an excruciatingly long and arduous process to refine our internal energies in order to produce measurable results. I have always been drawn to daoist practices from a young age and would meditate without even really knowing what it was, it just felt nice. But i didn't start officially Cultivating until just after college but i was underwhelmed by how little return you get for so much effort. I had processed far enough to have formed my Dantian and refined my senses enough to be able to detect spiritual energies and their movement. However, then i encountered a practice called Heartfulness that utilizes Yogic Transmission and this put my cultivation into hyperdrive! It would normally take me about two weeks to take in qi, extract the impurities, refine it into a higher form, and condense it into a pearl to draw up into the second dantian. But with Heartfulness, i was able to complete that entire process in One Day while i was At Work! I don't sit behind a desk, i work at UPS. I'm constantly moving and i was able to refine a pearl almost Passively while i was constantly busy. It felt like as long as i was doing Heartfulness, the energy would move Intelligently on its own to complete work within me, automatically. After a week of this, my body became stronger. I was able to walk around in 40 degree weather in shorts and a teashirt without getting cold and things that would normally hurt or bruise me would hardly hurt at all. I wanted to share this with my brothers here on Daobums so that you all could give it a try and share your results here! It's completely free, all the teachers are volunteers. https://heartfulness.org/us/masterclass/- This is the three-part video series that introduces the practice and helps you experience the transmission. https://heartfulness.org/us/experience-heartfulness/- You can follow this link and scroll down to “Try Heartfulness with Assistance” for a more personal experience with a real person rather than a video series, though I do recommend the video series first.

I want to talk about my experience with Heartfulness. Now, I'm not talking about the form from Mindfulness in the book "Cultivating Heartfulness" that I've seen spoken about around Daubums, but something different that has completely changed the way I cultivate. Most of us are practitioners or at least know of the refining processes of cultivating and internal alchemy. We all know it to be an excruciatingly long and arduous process to refine our internal energies in order to produce measurable results. I have always been drawn to daoist practices from a young age and would meditate without even really knowing what it was, it just felt nice. But i didn't start officially Cultivating until just after college but i was underwhelmed by how little return you get for so much effort. I had processed far enough to have formed my Dantian and refined my senses enough to be able to detect spiritual energies and their movement. However, then i encountered a practice called Heartfulness that utilizes Yogic Transmission and this put my cultivation into hyperdrive! It would normally take me about two weeks to take in qi, extract the impurities, refine it into a higher form, and condense it into a pearl to draw up into the second dantian. But with Heartfulness, i was able to complete that entire process in One Day while i was At Work! I don't sit behind a desk, i work at UPS. I'm constantly moving and i was able to refine a pearl almost Passively while i was constantly busy. It felt like as long as i was doing Heartfulness, the energy would move Intelligently on its own to complete work within me, automatically. After a week of this, my body became stronger. I was able to walk around in 40 degree weather in shorts and a teashirt without getting cold and things that would normally hurt or bruise me would hardly hurt at all. I wanted to share this with my brothers here on Daobums so that you all could give it a try and share your results here! It's completely free, all the teachers are volunteers. https://heartfulness.org/us/masterclass/- This is the three-part video series that introduces the practice and helps you experience the transmission. https://heartfulness.org/us/experience-heartfulness/- You can follow this link and scroll down to “Try Heartfulness with Assistance” for a more personal experience with a real person rather than a video series, though I do recommend the video series first.

What is the relationship between the Yijing and Daoism, in general? This may seem like an odd question but one that I need some guidance on. Somewhere ... and I can't recall where but pretty sure in was in TDB ... I think I recall someone stating that the Yijing was really not a Daoist writing. This statement ... or my misinterpretation of some statement ... has been stuck in the back my head and been haunting my study. I have always considered the Yijing as part of the greater idea of daoism. Is there any basis for thinking it is not? What is the generally accepted sense of positioning the Yijing relative to Daoism? Any guidance, greatfully appreciated.

http://www.medhajournal.com/eastern-intuition-and-western-cognition-where-and-how-do-they-meet/

A big hello to everyone here from South Africa! By way of introduction, i have been captivated for quite some time with eastern philosophy; the spiritual, martial and medical elements and practices; the alchemical and esoteric mythology and everything in between. i hope to gain a better insight and understanding from all of the scholars and teachers here at [Dao Bums] as well as share where i can. Looking forward to conversing with all of you soon ....

Can anyone tell me more about this Guy. I tried searching here to see if this System is Discussed here. Would this be considered a genuine lineage ? I'm posting the website and another video : https://www.tinyatdragon.com/

I'm designing a new logo and I would like to know what the member's opinions are on understanding and orientating the Yin Yang symbol auspiciously. Every orientation seems to be valid in one way or another depending on dynasty and intent and there seem to be many contradictions between scholars. I notice that TDB's logo for the site icon has changed a number of times and that the current incarnation is a very old depiction. May I also ask what was the rationale behind choosing this TDB version? As I understand it there are 3 phases of the Yin Yang. My teacher has told me there is: 1. Something 2. Nothing 3. Emptiness (also known as transition between something and nothing) My teacher also tells me the original YinYang symbol was this... From my own research I have noticed that this pattern (more or less) manifests for me when I'm practicing sun gazing QiGong (although a bit more miasmic than this one ;) In Thomas Cleary's translation of Chang PoTuan's Understanding Reality https://terebess.hu/english/Cleary-Thomas-Understanding-Reality-by-Chang-Po-tuan.pdf he refers to the 3 phases as: 1. Fostering yin whilst repelling Yang 2. Blending yin and Yang 3. Transcending yin and Yang Can anyone help please?

I had the privilege of meeting a great teacher in 1974 that was largely unknown. His name was Dave Harris out of Seattle, Washington. I was very young. Because of extensive boxing, wrestling, submission wrestling, Aikido, Karate (starting when I was 11 years old) I found many of the so called blackbelts in town to be mediocre. This made me a little full of myself. Then I met Dave Harris. His art was Tai Chi but, he liked to call it chop suey. My first sparring session at his home on 67th st. was a real eye opener as to what a true combat Tai Chi fighter at a very high level can do. I was totally helpless with this guy. Yet, he did it with amazing control, gentleness, kindness and openness. His wife, Gerry, came home during this and told us not to mess the place up. I told her not to worry, Dave had everything under control. He charged very little, he was more interested in your character and dedication. He did not self promote. He had studied under some of the great masters: Tchoung, Tohei, Raymond Chung, Pang, Woodcock, and Zhang Jie. Dave was very humble. All he wanted to do was teach anyone who was truly interested. (He also was a highly dedicated art teacher at North Seattle C.C.). Jesse Glover (of Bruce Lee fame) met Dave Harris when Jesse Glover was well known for his unique style of Sticking Hands. Afterwards, Jesse called Sifu Harris The Greatest Master no one has heard of. That is kind of the way Dave wanted it. The point I am getting to is: With all of these big name advertised masters all around, I would like to read about the tremendous teachers that have influenced your lives (in any discipline, martial or non-martial) and yet are largely unknown. A memorial of sorts. I am waxing nostalgic, please humor me:)

I wonder if someone knows who are the monks in the picture from Enter the dragon beginning first fight of Bruce lee and Sammo Hung. Black, yellow, red and blue attires for the monks? I guess yellow for Shaolin monks and black for Daoist monks?

Hello, I am English major in undergraduate school. My name is Ella. I read the Tao Te Ching and it really resonated with me. I felt like I finally found a philosophy that I completely agreed with and I could understand all of the principles. I am new to Daoism but consider myself a philosophical Taoist. I find it difficult to actually follow the ideas sometimes though, although I try. My family is Christian and so I haven't really met any Taoists. It's quite new to me but I'd like to learn more about it! What kind of practices do you have? Do you pray? Do you believe in a Higher Power? Thanks! How is everyone?

I was wondering about the word ai 愛 in Daoism. I have seeing the word in some chapters of the DDJ and translated as "love". What is love? What is love in Daoism? Is the word ai in Chinese equates the same as in English ( I don't say western languages as the cultural connotations are different). I have also read that compassion in Chinese has love content just as benevolence. Just wondering and picking brains here and there. Thanks and Happy Friday!!

I have created the thread about a month ago containing correct translations, but for some reason this thread disappeared and even mod team doesn't know where did it go... I had consulted with the administration and was advised to simply restore the thread by creating new one. Thank you. --- Arkady

Hello all!! As is evident from the above post i am 22 and in the process of putting my life together after basically a past 8 years of relative ignorance. First and foremost, as should be evident from the above title I am a user of that magical herb cannabis, for meditation / relaxation purposes as well as to assist me in treating depression. I do not believe that or any drug is the answer however, more accurately they provide a means to ask the right questions - IMO. Like a lot of young men I struggled with masturbation, lust, and porn usage, in some ways inevitable during the raging hormonal hell of adolescence but it was with time that I gained wisdom enough to realize how these things were damaging me and I am proud to say as of today I am a year clean of both. I've done a lot of reading on the concepts of the three treasures, Jing, Qi and Shen and have come to grasp an intuitive working knowledge of what they mean and how the manifest in your spiritual consciousness. I am however still a virgin and have yet to harm a woman with my lust. A wise man once advised me to make virginity "my spiritual fortress", to lose it with or to my wife. I am not sure what path I will take but am definitely aware that the common trend of promiscuity and self-indulgence is incredibly detrimental. For me it will take a special girl, and definitely not just a lover but also a cultivation partner and companion who understands yin and yang energy dynamic and how to heal with the relationship rather than the opposite. I want to get into yoga or some physical practice because like some young men I have suffered and still do from both anorexic tendencies and body dysmorphia. It's my belief, perhaps far fetched that these physical demons are karma for physical objectification of female goddesses that I did in my own mind. As a raging Taurus my challenge shall be in overcoming the base bestial instincts for higher purpose and enlightenment. Anyways, hello!! Glad to be here

Hi, I've been on various kinds of 'spiritual' path for years. Quite eclectic. Been with a few gurus, some good some bad, some in between. Mainly checking things out here today. Time will tell if I fit here. Free expression is important to me, I heard this is one of the best places for that. Van

Hello My name i go by is Asharana but if you would like to know my formal name its actually Kenneth. Ive practiced Microcosmic orbit from the mantak chia awakening healing light series as well as learning about the 3 dan tiens. Ive only recently been able to connect the spiritual body (macro) to the Micro(physical) so i am looking on where to go now i noticed each time ive connected to the northstar general other wise known as the northern star i feel either a strong spinning sensation or a pull from what feels like a strong vacuum effect of it. getting back to the intro i wanted to learn not only advance healing techniques but also how to have a strong or more fluid connection to the "Wuji" or emptiness I am unsure why but this seems to be one of the things on my bucket list before i move unto my next life. i can say ive experienced the silence of meditation and felt awakenings of the spiritual nature that hit me more then once like a mach truck of the universal energy . I was first developing or cultivating the energy that i have now when i was about 20-23 years old by first being attuned to reiki. then i realize there are methods that are more simple then reiki within in the first year of finding that attunement i decided that i would learn to be a healer to assist in developing my energetic body which i did not know could grow or i should say raise to higher levels until i started reading about "light/rainbow/diamond bodies" that is when i realize i had all the time i need to start working on my self to become better with my abilities and uncover new ones over time. So i am happy and hoping that within these few years ahead i'll be lead further down my path into the understanding of what my other spiritual bodies are like or even if my soul it self it manly multi-existantial

Gui Zhen Society in Staten Island NY. Hi Every One! I'm Lin, been on the Dao Bums for ages now, and recently moved back to the U.S. from China. I re-established my cultivation school in Staten Island and am offering a number of cultivation methods I have been putting together over the last several years. One of them is called White Canopy Meditation, a.k.a. Jiu Wu Tan Gong (Nine Five Platform Cultivation). Its quite a lengthy description, so I wil leave a short one here and link you to my personal practice page for the full idea: White Canopy Description Also new to the martial arts world, as well as to the Qigong, meditation, etc world, my own expression of both spiritual cultivaton and martial art , Origin and Illusion (Zong Huan). Origin and Illusion: Zong Huan Peace and Blessings, Lin Ai Wei Gui Zhen Society, Pure Mind Center Pure Mind Center Blog

In another thread, I noticed one commentator was waxing eloquent about the role of Reasoning. So to that I posed the question - What is it that gives us the ability to reason? Let me elaborate further with a series of questions. We interact with our world using the sensory apparatuses and our mind (via thought). Reasoning is integral part of the thinking/function of the mind. That being said, what gives us the ability to sense? What gives us the ability to think?

These teachings are a combination of esoteric traditions and were traditionally practiced to free the physical, energetic and spiritual body from crystallize emotion in the body and transform that energy to move you forward in your path. This special workshop includes secret esoteric teachings from Daoism & Buddhism. This workshop will include both lecture and hands on application. The total cost of the three day workshop is $600.00. Payment includes a booklet of handouts and a certificate presented from the Internal Alchemy Institute to all individuals who complete the workshop training. A non-refundable registration fee of $200.00 is required to hold each applicants place, with the remaining balance ($400.00) being paid before May 2nd, 2014. When you choose to gift yourself with this experience, you are choosing to: Experience more positive daily shifts. Create healthy and sustainable new patterns. Maintain more balance in your life. Navigate life’s challenges with a peaceful heart. Gain insight and clarity into seemingly uncontrolled thoughts and behaviors. For more information: Call: (831) 204-8014 or Email: [email protected]

Hello Everyone! I thought I'd introduce myself, give some background, and explain my goals for utilizing these forums. Hopefully someone might be able to point me in an appropriate direction after reading. Soon I will be leaving on a sustainable agriculture initiative to work with some tribal peoples in South America. I will essentially be spending two years in a very remote place without running water or electricity with a decent amount of free time. This to me seems like the perfect opportunity to get some real work/practice done in qigong/yoga/neigong/neidan/weidan/etc and/or the other techniques discussed in these forums without the usual distractions of daily life. So, I've been digging around in the forums for a few weeks, as I wanted to do my due diligence before posting. After hours reading through with seemingly hundreds of tabs open on my browser, I feel I haven't made much progress in finding truth. Threads tend to devolve into arguments and heresay. So I'm hoping those with a little more experience can help me discern the Dragons from the Snakes. Who is legitimate? Who are the frauds? Wang Liping, Dr. Jiang Feng, and John Chang appear to be authentic in achieving a high level of mastery in their various lineages. David Verdesi is a controversial figure to say the least. Can anyone say with confidence who has real attainment and is worth pursuing as a teacher and mentor? I would love to hear your recommendations about where to start my journey. I hear one can injure themselves pretty severely if they train incorrectly. I'd like to eliminate that option from the get-go. Here are the books I own so far: -Opening the Dragon Gate - The Making of an Authentic Taoist Immortal trans by Thomas Cleary -Ling Boa tong Zhi Neng Nei gong Shu - Wang Liping and Richard Liao -Daoist Neigong - The Philosophical Art of Change by Damo Mitchell -Both of Kostas Dervenis books The Magus of Java and Nei Kung: The Secret Teachings of the Warrior Sages -2 of Bruce Frantzis' books on the water method of Meditation: Relaxing Into Your Being and The Great Stillness I would certainly also appreciate your recommendations as far as resources and books. So far all of the complex metaphors and translation issues has been fairly confusing to me. Does anyone have a preference for a translation of the Dao De Ching? I'm also beginning work with a yoga instructor so that hopefully I will be able to sit in Full lotus position by the time I leave for South America. Lastly, I wanted to share my motivations for pursuing this path. Obviously they are multifactorial, but ultimately it boils down to simply a yearning to understand the nature of existence itself. Who and what am I? Why do I or any of us exist? How much potential do I have, and how can maximize my ability to make a positive impact on the world? Don't get me wrong, of course I'm psyched about the abilities that supposedly come along with that understanding, but to me those are just awesome side effects and great tools for helping people. Anyway, I wish everyone the best and look forward to hopefully hearing from some of you soon!

Dr. John De Anzo and Dr. Kristen Lansdale will be offering the following Daoist Mysticism and Medical Qigong courses in 2014: 2014 SEMINARS Medical Qigong Seminars MONTEREY: Practitioner 1February 13 - 17 (Registration due by 1/13/13) Practitioner 2February 20 - 24 Practitioner 3March 30 - April 5 (includes two days of clinic) Practitioner 4June 7 - 14 (includes three days of clinic) Practitioner 1September 12 - 16 (includes three days of clinic) Therapist 1September 26 - 30 (includes three days of clinic) ADDITIONAL COURSES: Practitioner 1April 18 - 22 Kalamazoo, MI Practitioner 2April 24 - 29 (includes one day of clinic) Kalamazoo, MI Practitioner 1July 5 - 9 Europe (Location to be determined) Daoist Mysticism Seminars MONTEREY: Introduction to Daoist Mysticism 1March 22 - 24 Cost $500 Introduction to Daoist Mysticism 2June 21 - 23 Cost $500 Introduction to Daoist Mysticism 3September 20 - 22 Cost $500 Cost of pre-registration for all 3 seminars: $1350 (10% savings of $150) ADDITIONAL COURSES: Introduction to Daoist Mysticism 1May 17 - 19 Cost $600 Vancouver, Canada Introduction to Daoist Mysticism 1July 12 - 13 Cost $500 Europe (Location to be determined) Introduction to Daoist Mysticism 2August 16 - 18 Cost $600 Vancouver, Canada All dates are subject to change Medical Qigong Practitioner Courses:These courses are an introduction to the foundational principles of Medical Qigong Therapy with its knowledge of how to heal through self-cultivation and how to assist others in their healing process. The Practitioner level course is a 200 hour course, divided into four parts: Practitioner 1 - Introduction to Medical Qigong Therapy Link to syllabus Practitioner 2 - Introduction to Diagnosis and Treatments Link to syllabus Practitioner 3 - Clinical Foundations of Medical Qigong Therapy Link to syllabus Practitioner 4 - Treatment of Organ Disease and Medical Qigong Prescription Exercises Link to syllabus Clinical Theatre and Final Exam In addition to the Practitioner courses, five days of clinical internship are required for completion of the Practitioner level. The Practitioner 3 course will include two days of clinical internship and the Practitioner 4 course will include three days of clinical internship along with the final exam. Students are required to complete an additional 48 hours of clinical externship individually for completion of the Practitioner course. Upon successful completion of the course, the Medical Qigong Practitioners (M.Q.P.) will receive certification, be qualified to practice Medical Qigong Therapy and may continue on to the Therapist, Masters and Doctorate courses. $1500 cost per seminar $500 deposit required to register (early registration is encouraged to secure participation in the seminar) Cost of pre-registration for entire Practitioner course (P1 - P4): $5400 (a 10% savings of $600) The usual cost for the clinical internship is $1500. This amount is included in the above seminar cost for a savings of $1500. Cash, checks and credit cards accepted Remaining balance due before class starts Reading Assignments will be given from these Required Books written by Dr. Jerry Alan Johnson: Chinese Medical Qigong Therapy: Volume 1 - Energetic Anatomy and Physiology Chinese Medical Qigong Therapy: Volume 2 - Energetic Alchemy; Dao Yin Therapy and Qi Deviations Chinese Medical Qigong Therapy: Volume 3 - Differential Diagnosis; Clinical Foundations; Treatment Principles and Clinical Protocols Chinese Medical Qigong Therapy: Volume 4 - Prescription Exercises and Meditations; Treatment of Internal Diseases; Pediatrics; Geriatrics; Gynecology; Neurology and Energetic Psychology For more information go to: www.doaistmysticism.com If anyone is thinking of attending the Vancouver ones let me know . PS, I recommend reading the material for the medical qigong courses ahead of time if you can :>.