i am

The basic idea being: community. Without it, you're just some dude (or dudette) foraging berries during the day and gnawing on a deer leg at night around the fire by yourself. Which does sound kinda cool, but it would not be, really. You need a community. One group hunting while another forages, and while others are making things, preparing things etc. As one person out in the wilderness, life would be brutal, hard and lonely. As a community, yes. Much better than the agricultural system. But there are only a couple places left, deep in the jungle, where this is still happening, and their way of life is severely threatened, and coming to an end. Hard to believe they lasted this long. It's as proven of an idea as any archeological/anthropological fact, that hunter gatherers had more leisure time than we do. They didn't have healthcare, but they were much healthier because of their diet and lifestyle. And modern research is showing how a healthy diet and lifestyle is more important than the whole medical system in most cases for most people. And when the first European settlers came over to America, it was common for whites to go over and live with the natives, or if captured during war, to happily live with them. Never once happened the other way around, until much much later when it was clear that the whites weren't going anywhere, and would take over, and take everything. So some "civilized", agricultural folks went native, happily. Preferred the lifestyle and people. Of course because of racism it couldn't happen the other way around. But that's all a part of the same system we're talking about here. There has been a lot of romanticizing of hunter gatherer culture which stretches the truth. But if you think it's actually all just romanticization, and that if you went back and lived it, you'd realize agriculture really is better and it's good we went that way...I think you'd be in for a big surprise. I don't think many of us can comprehend the type of happiness, and the daily mindset, of a hunter gatherer. To call ourselves "free", would likely sound like some cruel joke to them. So to say "go do it"...There needs to be a community. And though there's plenty of wilderness out there, there is not necessarily the huge swaths needed for seasonal migrations. And don't think that because the vast majority of us are sheltered from warfare and abuse, that it isn't happening on a huge scale out there. We have a military who fights our battles for us. That doesn't mean the battles aren't happening. Thousands of people are dying, all over the world, in modern society. You're more likely to get killed by a person than a wild animal. Etc. You're surrounded by toxic chemicals in your house, in your food, in your water, in the air. You couldn't get away if you tried. Cell phone signals. All that. Off grid communities, ecovillages and the like are probably the most realistic route for people who believe in the above stuff enough to try and live it. We're at where we're at and I'm happy with my life; but yeah, there are times when I truly believe I'd be happier beyond description if I were born in an earlier time. I say "oh well" and get on with my life. But it doesn't change the facts.

So this is a split of a split IQ--->Success--->Living Simply. Maybe it's too much to expect a person truly living this to be on the internet, much less this site. But who is really living this ideal people like to talk about? I feel like people with decent paying jobs and a secure life like to talk about how true success is being happy with a bowl of rice. But I'd like to hear from someone living this, and get their take on it. I absolutely believe there are people living a simple, happy life out in the country. Like some people third-world countries. But I'm not interested in hearing from a Westerner who is not living that life, and doesn't know the day-in day-out realities of it, putting it up on display as some ideal. I think most of us on this site are not enlightened. So to us, success is going to require some level of monetary comfort. I don't like people with money in their bank account pretending it's not. If someone around here is living the life that people like to lay out as what a spiritually realized being could be completely content with, I'd like to hear from you. Send me a PM if that's easier. This could include a commune, an eco village, a monastery, or otherwise. Living in a tiny house on a trailer in someone's backyard? No retirement, no insurance? Bringing in recycling to afford your next meal? Sure, probably an enlightened being can be living on the streets, perfectly happy. For the rest of us, realistically, how simply are you living? How simple can your life truly be, for you to still be happy? Not theorizing from the drivers seat of your Mercedes about how you'd be plenty happy if you were poor. I mean people living a truly simple life without the security blanket of a fat bank account, investments, health insurance and retirement. Are you content? Or do you stress this stuff? I realize that anyone who is not fully realized will struggle trying to live an "ideal" spiritual life, whatever that is. But there must be levels. What I guess I'm getting at is I'd like to hear a realistic concept of people being happy, not an idealized one. We're all somewhere along the way to enlightenment. Until we're there, let's be real about what success in life means to us. How much can we do without? How many levels of security do we need to be comfortable, and therefore happy and content? Just knowing that someone will feed us? Or a paycheck? Living paycheck to paycheck? Or money in the bank? No insurance? No hope of ever retiring? Ideally, I get it. An enlightened being can wander the earth, receiving food and lodging where they find it, and being completely happy and not constantly stressed and struggling. If someone is that, or is close to that, speak up. Otherwise let's be real and talk about the level of simple living that we can really be happy with, especially those actually living it, not just people giving it lip service. 9 months ago I would be right there with you in the theorizing of simple living and being happy with a bowl of rice. I'm in a slightly different situation now and it's forced me to confront the reality of those ideals, so I'm being a bit stubborn. I want the opinion of those achieving this simplistic contentment, not those just thinking about it poetically.

Except one more to apologize I got a little carried away. People were engaging me on stuff so I started talking too much and lost perspective. To anyone who has experienced hardship, sorry I've been acting as though my problems are serious. I know they are not. I got caught up feeling that people with security were preaching against security, speaking about discomfort from a place of comfort, and it annoyed me. If I came off as though I can speak for hardship just because I don't have a job, I'm sorry. That's lame. If I'm going to offend people by venting my frustrations of insignificant (significant to me, but not to anyone else) problems, I should do it with friends and family and not strangers on the internet. I've used a couple people, indirectly, as examples of who shouldn't be talking about living simply, and I'm sorry for that.

You're one of the very few who is giving advice, who has actually lived it. If this is sounding like a pity part I apologize. I already pointed out I'm talking 1st world problems. My problems are problems a lot of people would wish to have. I know that. I realize this has gotten a bit out of hand and maybe I'm not sure what I'm arguing anymore. What's kept me posting is that I have the feeling that most of the people advising others to live simply and be happy with nothing, are living a life far from that. I'll stop now.

You have them there? We have a bunch of colonies. I don't think rural life is easy. But it is much more simple. The problems are real life problems. Not "wait, what's html code? Do you know sequel? Crap, we have to hire someone. Now how do I go about making money on the internet?". I think a lot of people would agree that chopping wood and carrying water, while physically demanding, gives most people much more satisfaction at the end of the day, is much more "simple" than modern life. Get a job, working for someone else. So you can make money. To pay bills. The bills are for heat, water, food etc. As opposed to: get wood for heat. get water. grow and hunt food. Neither are easy. One is simple and for some, a much more satisfying lifestyle. Though harder to sustain into old age, as you point out.

Ok, I get where you're coming from a bit more. My post on how I defined "success" in life left out spirituality because it's such a personal thing, and if someone wants to be atheist, that's cool too. For me with what I want...well, check the living simply thread. Being my own happiness and maintaining enlightenment within, no matter what I'm doing, is not in direct conflict with wanting a change in life, and pursuing it. I don't need to settle for a 9-5. I find that I have a need for a lot of alone time, and time on my own terms. Weeknights and a 2 day weekend don't quite do it, for me. I practiced rising above the pettiness and negativity of the office for 8 years, and I did pretty well. But eventually you start to think that, partially for your spiritual progression, that being surrounded by that negativity is not beneficial. You can't hide from the real world. But you can make careful choices about what sort of energy you're exposed to on a day-in, day-out basis. Hugely important. I get what you're saying, more than I was before. A lot of the frustration coming out over the last couple days is the result of a cycle that I've been going through, of knowing everything will be ok, having all sort of cool ideas of where my life is going, then suddenly going the other way and having everything turn negative and stressful in my head. And part of the problem is that there are all sorts of great things to do. If you give a shit and want to do them I'm working on breaking that cycle now, and yes, it'll come from within when it happens. This is probably very good for me. It's easy to be content when you have a paycheck coming in, or you're living off a decent savings. It's a much better test of whether you can be content when you don't have a paycheck or savings and have to figure out what direction you're going to go. My plan: free place for the winter, which I have. Use this time to read, brainstorm, write, play music, cultivate. All the stuff I never feel like I have enough time for. Then, get into the city as much as possible, get involved in local groups and meet a ton of people, and start getting exposed to what people are doing for work, from those working their ass off, to those just piecing a living together with some random stuff here and there but working as little as possible. Then take that and hopefully get started on my own deal in the spring. And yeah, I'll need to get a job for the winter. But as I'm doing all this, I will be working on myself, and being sure I'm not chasing something external. I think I'm completely justified in searching for a new way to make a living. The trick is not getting caught in thinking "I'll just be happy if x is my job", or similar lines of thinking. Which I already know, I just need to keep reminding myself I know it.

Yep. And let me make clear that I don't want to drop out of society and live in the wilderness. Well...not really. What spawned this thread was that I laid out an example of "success" in life, in my opinion, and it got nicely criticized as not being true to spiritual nature (somewhat rightly so), and still too materialistic. And in that thread, there are all sorts of people with jobs and "security" talking about how security is an illusion and being happy with basically nothing, and continuously using the example of some person not knowing where their next meal is coming from yet being happy and without worry. So this was kind of my "show me" thread. Is someone doing this? Or is it just some idealistic construct of what people believe is possible and like to talk about from the safety of their security, but no one is putting into practice. They just like to tell you that it should be your goal. I'm exaggerating a bit but that's the feeling I was getting. So I was just asking if anyone here is, or knows someone who is actually living this life, happily. Steve says he's met some people. I don't want to renounce society. I don't plan on living a ascetic life. I'm just curious if anyone who likes to talk about it as advice, actually does it. Personally, I'm so much happier working "light" manual labor than I am an office job. It's just that unless you're a tradesman, the labor doesn't pay well. But does my preference for light labor over office work mean I have issues? I'm just happier doing labor. I can be happy in an office, but it takes a lot of work. Yes, yes, that's an opportunity to work on myself. But I'd rather just do labor. I've been taught that preferences are fine, so long as you don't define yourself by your preferences, or as long as your preferences aren't unhealthy. I wonder how many people on this site who are saying that you should be happy with whatever you're doing, actually put this into practice. Yeah, I'll bet a few do, and a few more are consciously trying. The rest just like to talk about it, and have made MANY life changes for the sake of happiness, and probably a lot of those changes worked out for them, for the better. I don't think that all the people you talk to who made a major life change and will talk about it for the rest of their lives, about how it was such a great decision, the best thing they ever did for themselves, are all spiritual infants who don't understand life.

Good point, on the resistance thing. I know it's all about attitude and that usually takes care of it for me. But knowing something and your body and mind living it aren't always the same thing, right? I agree security is an illusion. That's the reason I quit my job. Death could happen any time, so what the hell was I doing there? However I still haven't been presented with one of these people who don't know where their next meal is coming from, and are happy and worry-free. But their absence in my life or on this site doesn't mean they don't exist, I know. Yes, I agree. But I think we can also agree that when some sort of life change happens, a person can be expected to freak out a little, even if they are aware of all these things. I don't look at a simple, happy life as one devoid of responsibility. Only one devoid of unnecessary complication.

Yeah, you're doing better than me, that's for sure. Better than anyone I'm friends with. Absolutely. The plane ticket usually is (and should be) the most expensive part of the trip. Not because I agree with the cost of air travel, but because it's so damn expensive, it better be the largest cost! I'll have to check into this whole "astral travel" I keep hearing about Yeah I hear you. I know a person who stresses is a person who stresses. I'm usually pretty good. I don't stress much. But I haven't made this major of a life change in quite some time. Unchartered waters, for me. But tons of other people have been this route before, so there's plenty of advice and help. It's really just been in the last week that I let it get to me.

Agreed Not positive they're in the book. It's something I read somewhere else, but it's been a while since I read the book so it could be in there. Oh they're scandalous! Just kidding. I think he just had a few friends over for some wild picked berries and stuff like that. Yes but the LAND. The land, man. That's the issue. Though I agree otherwise. I'm not ready to become a squatter and build myself a hut on Forest Service land. Yeah, they do. I'm living with family now, and my friends have been getting some comical emails. I know it'll all be alright. I'm sleeping fine at night, and I'm happy. I just have a lot going on in my head, probably mostly because I'm overcomplicating things. I honestly didn't think it was as big a deal until I started ranting about it in these threads...apparently it's been bothering me!

Yeah and I don't mind working towards something, even something 15 years away. That's a goal and that's doing something and has meaning. What's agonizing is just treading water, not knowing where to start, because you don't know what the goal is Other than the lifestyle.

You know more than me then! When I applied for Obamacare, I entered my income as $6,000 for the year, since that was my best guess as to how much I'd make before quitting my job this year. I qualified for 0 discounts. Depending on which you state you happen to live in, you get way more help if you make somewhere up towards $20,000 a year, than if you make nothing. No help for those with no income or extremely low income.

Well for me, at least right now, it's part of it. Lack of security makes it hard to be comfortable. If you don't feel safe, either financially or otherwise, it's hard to be really content, and hard to be happy. But I'll admit that how you define security, comfort and happiness plays a huge part in where you're going to come down on this argument. Security can just be basic access to healthcare, money in the bank in case shit goes down, and some kind of income to meet simple needs. Without that I feel like it's pretty easy to stress. Pretty hard to be content. When you have no money, and bills are coming due, it's hard to tell yourself "if I am content within, then I am happy", and believe it. But all you gotta do to fix that is get a damn job and get the bills paid. I think I'm just in the toughest part of my transition to some sort of different path, right now. The money I saved up is gone, and it's winter, so I can't just camp and live out of a vehicle and act like I'm on vacation, working seasonal jobs. Things just got real So how much I'm willing to work, and what I want out of life and what standard of living I want are very much on my mind, including the prospect of being dirt poor with no safety net (other than family and friends, which is actually a pretty good safety net). I've been going back & forth between knowing everything will be fine, and freaking out a little. And I'm not the type to freak out. By the way, Thoreau lived within walking distance of town, and went there regularly, as well as having visitors over for dinner parties. He didn't preach against or deny society. He just wanted to be an example to everyone that you could slow down, live simply, and be happier than you were before. That much I already know about life. If I had access to a cabin in the woods, fairly close to town, you can bet your ass I'd be living there, and at least 30% of what I'm currently stressing about would be gone. I don't think he had any mortgage or bills needing paid to disturb his calm. Anyway, sorry I've made a couple threads "all about me". I'm a little frustrated right now and it's clouding my judgement. But even though it's blinding me to some pretty simple things, it's making it pretty clear to me that talking to people helps me nail down exactly what it is I'm looking for. I think what I'm asking out of life has changed a bit over the course of writing in these two threads, which is eye opening. It's pretty clear I'm still a little confused on what is the end goal, at least in the worldly sense. As the Dude said "my thinking has become very uptight"...or something like that...

That's kind of where I'm coming from. It's part of being in modern society, if you want to take part in modern society. Part of it is learning what you're willing to tolerate, then just getting on with it, I suppose. An 8-5 office job can be good. But there are definitely certain jobs and work environments in offices which are not healthy. Mostly I don't want someone with a job and health insurance and retirement telling me I need to give up all that to be spiritually true to myself.

I can see that, definitely. But we do live in the world...I don't think avoiding it is the answer for anyone, except for short periods of time. That was definitely directed toward Nikolai though, since he seems to have strong views on this.

Ideally, yes. In reality? A person not happy with what he/she does and has, who is working for minimum wage at a fast food restaurant will not therefore never be happy with anything. They might be perfectly happy with something "better". Sure, maybe an immortal would be happy with it. The idea is valid. People are always saying "if I just had this, or made this much, I'd be happy!". And it's not true. But there is a point where it is true, for most people. For example...I see, in more populated areas, the life that low income earners live. They're in apartment complexes in less desirable areas of town, driving cars that work less often than not, have to commute far to work, and struggle. Compared to low income people in smaller communities, who might be able to live in a rental house or nicer apartment, within walking distance to everything, able to get out and camp and hike, go to the farmers market. In one there are class divisions, and a lot of things against you. In the other, not so much. Totally different life, with the same pay. Difference in location. Will the person living in the more populated area never be happy? Or will they be, if they just moved somewhere which was laid out in a way that made money matter much less? Some would, some wouldn't. But some definitely would.

Let's be clear about certain things, then. By the best of both worlds and one foot in modern society, I don't mean going to clubs and rubbing myself all over women and casual sex. I don't mean getting rich. I don't mean having a bunch of stuff. I don't mean impressing my neighbors. I just the ability to hang out with friends, go to a restaurant now and then, go on vacations, etc. Are you saying that dropping out of society is the only way to commit yourself to the spiritual life? That my idea of making just enough money to have the "modern society" things like insurance and retirement and some money in the bank, while living more or less off grid and doing all my spiritual practices, and living virtuously, isn't going to allow me to reach enlightenment? I take the Taoist idea of balance more literally. Are you living by the ideals you're talking about?

Basically, my ideal life right now, is "the best of both worlds". One foot in modern society, one in my own spiritual existence. I could quit it all and find some eco village or commune to join. But I still have a nagging thing about retirement and healthcare. Security blanket. Taking part in modern society, with my own little world off grid that's always there waiting for me. Maybe that will fade away. I don't know.

And then you realize that no, I won't be happy dirt broke, living day to day not knowing where I'll sleep, how I'll eat, how I receive treatment if I get sick. I'm only where I'm at, so I can only speak from this place. I suppose if I had achieved immortality, I could live however, secure in the fact that even if I die in a year from cancer, I will live on spiritually. But right now, I want a long life. I want a place to call my own and I want money in the bank. I want healthcare if I get sick, and I don't want to be forced into bankruptcy to receive that healthcare. I am still mortal, and so I have worldly needs and concerns. I know from experience, that with where I'm at, I cannot be content and calm, meditate with a completely calm mind, walk in peace with an empty mind...when I don't have a job. When I know what I want out of material life, but am not quite sure how to get it, yet. I too believe in the ideal that you're writing about. But it's not my reality. So...hypothetically? Ideally? For the sake of conversation? Yeah, I believe that true success and happiness in life comes from inner contentment, and any old hobo could be completely content and happy. I know a guy on this site, whose ideas I really value, who mentioned something about it being very important, in his opinion, to get your career, get success in life (I know, that's what we're trying to define!), and only when you've established yourself in your career and are secure, should you begin to get "serious" about cultivation. Probably for this very reason. If you knew enough to pick a job you'd be happy with, did it for a couple decades and were "there", then, when you start getting lazy and not caring, you can kind of coast...But what does a 37 year old guy, who never cared about a career and so has just kind of gotten jobs that were better than the last one, but never real idea of he wanted to "do", and so never really being fulfilled by the job because it was just some job he took...and so now he really wants a good paying job which supports his lifestyle, but a huge part of him now doesn't care. Doesn't care about "success", money, stuff. It's hard to motivate to go to school or get training, to learn a bunch of tech stuff, to apply for some stupid job that wants you spout off about how great you are and your "accomplishments". I used to think that any job that I didn't hate, and liked a bit and didn't disagree with the work being done, would be fine, as long as it payed my bills and more, and didn't interfere too much with my personal life. But that's what I had and wasn't happy. I was dividing my life. "I'm only working to support my lifestyle. Once work is over for the day I can get back to my life. Once it's the weekend I can do my own thing". So I was always living for evenings and weekends. Which meant I was spending more time not living. Even though it was a job that did good stuff, and I left work at work. As soon as I walked out the door, there was stress, no thinking about work later on. It's not enough, because 8 hours of the day I under someone else's control. My time and location was controlled by that job. So I just have this idea of a lifestyle...and how do I get it with the least amount of work...what can I do that will allow me to set my own daily schedule, live where I want when I want, not deal with a commute, live on my own terms. Basically that seems like contract work, which can be done mostly remotely. That or start playing the lotto

Yeah it can be a moving target. I think that's part of the problem for a lot of people...they spend so much time climbing to where they think they want to be, only to realize, once they're finally there, that's it's not what they really wanted. As far as the title of the thread...it depends. I know he's talking about what modern society thinks, in the worst possible portrayal of modern society. In the negative portrayal of modern society, i.e. everyone is shallow and money greedy and just think about sex, power and material goods - real happiness is not part of success. Just the appearance of happiness, or the achievement of what's supposed to make you happy based on the supposed values. But real modern society is much more complex than that, as it's always been, and contains all sorts of people. I guess it depends on what kind of groups you tend to run with, but unless you're a lazy, slobby, underachiever who blames all their problems on other people and refuses to take responsibility and do something with their life, it's rare that someone will really criticize or think badly of you. Yeah there are shallow people who will judge you by your car and house, but most people, if you get to know them, will "forgive" all that. If they see you're doing what you like/love, earn enough to keep the bills paid, show that you're motivated enough to hold a job, and are nice to people, more or less, do something socially and have hobbies, you'll be ok with them. But...yeah, will they call you successful? Not all of them, no. And the yacht club polo shirt with the collar turned up crowd will definitely not call that success. In the circles I've found myself to be part of since getting out of school, anyone with a job they like, who is ahead of their bills with some spare money to play around with, who has some kind of social life and some hobbies is considered successful. Even by wealthy people who were born into money and made their own on top of that. I was thinking of this more in terms of career but in life? I was getting into it a little..: A job you like, which pays the bills and allows you to save, and spend if you care to spend. "Gainful employment", they call it. As much of a social life as you want. If you're happy with no friends and have none, cool. But if you want an active social life, you have one. You have interests/hobbies, and whether you really excel at them or not, you enjoy them and take part in them. That's my basic description of success in life and yeah, it has everything to do with being happy. Gainful employment, friends, hobbies. Hopefully some kind of spirituality in there somewhere, but I think that defines success in life, because it ought to make you happy. You can almost always be more happy...but like with my case, you need to do some soul searching to figure out if you're just never satisfied and are expecting to much, or if you've become complacent and are "settling" for a life that's less than you really want. And absolutely there is room for those who have no interest in playing the money game. If you are a squatter, off the grid, living off poached game, wild forage and gifts of food, and are happy and healthy, awesome! I think that's success, too. The Man Who Quit Money is a good example of that. But for most of us...the above stuff is what I think.

Wow you actually read all that? Thanks. Well, like I said, I do want to retire. I think $2,000/month is pretty minimum if you're going to own the place you live, unless you inherit a house and land. I also value travel, including international travel. I mean yeah, I could eat rice and grow a small garden (which I plan anyway), but still, food and all the other stuff I buy at the grocery store is realistically going to cost $200 a month. I a minimalist, in my way, but not an ascetic. Mortgage of maybe $600 for just land, if I'm lucky. Healthcare, even just catastrophic, is going to be close to $200. So we're already at $1,000, absolute minimum. I will have some sort of vehicle (I currently have a 1978 pickup and that's kind of my style...). So insurance, a little gas, some maintenance, then hell, there's just stuff here and there you're going to spend money on. Put a few hundred a month into a retirement fund. I don't need the traditional retirement our grandparents had, but I want a point where I can live off what I saved, if I have to. But I plan to always be doing something. I do, however, refuse to be old and possibly somehow not fully functional, unable to meet my basic expenses, unable to work, and miserable. I will put money aside to avoid that. I think $2-3,000 is a perfectly reasonable, small amount to realistically live simply, but mostly comfortably, in modern society. Only the young and the very very faithful can live on $1,000 or less and not have the stress of "what ifs" always nagging at the back of their mind. And anyway, I'm talking about me. I haven't done serious math, but I have a good idea of the lifestyle I want, and what it would cost. I'm intelligent enough, competent and 90% of the time a pleasure to work with, if I do say so myself, and have the ability to get more education. I know there are jobs which can easily bring that amount of money, which would add up to nowhere near full time over a year. $20,000-$30,000 a year for contract working, for only part time hours, or only working maybe 6-8 months a year, is within reach to able people. So we're talking some sort of consulting that would bring a full time employee easily $70,000, which is really not all that much, though pa-LENTY to be completely comfortable (depending on where you live), but only doing it, at most, half time. A real job, but working just enough to meet my needs, as I define them. Or so I tell myself.

But you can only be content with that bowl of rice when other needs have been met. But I'll agree, needs met or not, most people have a hard time being happy. But you need to have some level of "success", before you can be comfortable and secure enough to be able to feel content with that bowl of rice. Believe me I'm thinking pretty hard about this right now. I had a decent job up until Feb., which could have been a career job. Never would have made me rich, and unless I got married and had dual income, buying a house would have been a challenge, but possible. But I rented a house, lived within blocks of hiking trails, walking distance of downtown and my friend's houses, and I lived in the west, so vacation meant camping, backpacking, floating, hiking, renting a Forest Service cabin. Vacation pretty easily equaled cheap, if you wanted it to (and I do). It was really a great lifestyle. I was happy. Except... It was an office job; boring, working with people nothing like me, who could be very petty and place way to much importance on silly little things. A lot of negativity, surrounding me every day. I sat around all day watching the clock. All I've got till I die is time, and I was wishing away 8 hours of my life a day, five days a week. So I quit. Now...I want very badly not to fall back into the comfort of a secure, boring, soul-sucking office job (not all office jobs are like this!). But I wonder if it was my inability to be content which caused my unhappiness, or if that's a cop-out, hiding behind the safe, secure state employee job because it's scary out there in the real world. In the end, whether it's an issue inside me or it really was a good idea for my sanity to leave, I left. I felt like I was wasting my life. So I hit the road and drove around. When my money ran out, I worked a couple temporary jobs, then found family to spend to the winter with. I'm trying really hard to meet people who are more self-starters, not just people who work for companies. I need to be exposed to people piecing a living together in less traditional ways. All I've known is getting an 8-5 job working for someone else. I really don't want another 8-5. I can get by on very little money, so finding a path for myself which is contract-based or part time, and preferably doesn't tie me down to an office or specific location would be perfect. But how much do I need? I want to retire someday. I want health insurance. But all I really want is a couple-hundred sq ft house in the mountains (near town), where I get to spend most of my time. I could pretty easily get by on $2-3,000 a month (knowing insurance and retirement are coming out of this...), if I didn't have a mortgage or car payment. But I have to get to where I don't have a mortgage. I can build my own small house without going into debt. But the land? Probably not. So I'm using myself as an example and also because it gives me a rant outlet since I'm balls deep in this crap right now. Now that I'm free, how do I stay that way? "What job will not drag me down? What will I be happy with? What do I want out of my job? Out of my personal time?" I get to sit around being very careful not to commit to something that's just going to drag me down again. For a little while. I need to get back at it very soon. Just need to figure out what "it" is. This is not only a "are you happy with yourself?" question. I'm getting to know myself better all the time, and not just any job that pays the bills will allow happiness. In fact I feel like the farther I progress spiritually, the less I can handle a lot of certain jobs. Maybe that will change at some point... 1st world problems! So with that aside, I agree. With the right attitude, you can be happy with very little. Assuming you have all of your "base" figured out. How much do you need. Have you been lucky enough to grow up in an atmosphere that allowed you to slide into a type of work that fits those needs. Or hard working and clever enough to figure it all out yourself. So...success is: doing some soul searching to find what you truly want out of life. Then getting it. How the rest of society defines it shouldn't matter much, and there are still some places left where you can live true to yourself and not be battered daily by materialistic people judging you.

Some amount of error and subjectivity is always involved in everything, if we're talking about real life. The idea of any scale, score or description is just a tool. A language. And as anyone who's been around for a while knows (high IQ or not), language is a very inexact communicator. For most of us, it's the best we've got in most situations, and so we use it. And it is absolutely worthwhile. As long as we realize that it's lacking, not absolute, and only an approximation at the truth, designed to generalize and make some attempt at conveying a common standard. If someone asks you how their soup is, do you say "good"? Or do you dive into a fifteen minute description of all the nuances of taste and how it felt on your tongue and the temperature and how it compares to other soups and in what situations it would be the better soup, and the different situations in which this same soup would not be as suitable as another soup? There's a place for both of those descriptions.

Exactly. In certain situations, it's perfectly appropriate (IMO). But it's very lacking.

Anybody taken an IQ test recently? There are some online. I took one 6 or 7 years ago, for fun (I had a really boring job). It was really interesting. Not that it's necessary, but it would benefit the conversation if people actually had fresh in their mind what the test involved. There was one part of it that I remember not liking, and I don't remember what it was right now...except that it didn't test my ability to reason. It was something I only could have figured out if I knew certain "facts". If you never learned a certain thing, you couldn't answer the question, so it didn't really test "cleverness". Sort of like crossword puzzles. They definitely give your head a workout, but they are 50% "trivia", not smarts. If you don't know about TV shows or movies from the 60s, there are just a lot of clues you won't get. Nothing to do with intelligence. edit:...or maybe the online thing isn't such a good idea...http://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/nov/29/iq-tests-online-are-they-valid