lrn2livorlive2lrn

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Posts posted by lrn2livorlive2lrn


  1. I’m not going to say what is said isn’t generally true but Like a lot of things it is what you make it. Like was said in an earlier post many things in life are used in this way. It’s a very common reaction to life. There’s some nuances twists and turns to this martial art thing aswell like if you actually spar or “compete” your fear, delusion and ego take a different trip, if you practice a not combative martial art the sky is the limit for feeding your insecurity if that’s the process driving you. So many things are the realm of insecurity we seem to be terrible at dealing with this common  situation in general. 

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  2. The zhuangzi talks about how ancient knowledge would often be useless without the perspective or conditions of the time the knowledge is from. To only be exposed to a western perspective translation which is deaf to the perspective/conditions of the time is kind of like case in point . Even the Chinese commentaries hundreds of years after differ on their opinions. It’s an exaggeration I guess in this case that it’s useless but it definitely could be misleading. 
     

     I think if you find an outlook to be true to you you go with that and your experience, leaving yourself open to change. I don’t get the feeling from that inner chapter zhuangzi that he wants you to follow him as much as he wants to free himself and others from BS. 
    I do read western translations of this ancient Chinese book that has already been edited many times , over many years. I can only make of it what I can. It is funny to me trying to nail down what zhuangzi is saying or trying to sort out other confusing aspects of the text 

    because how dismissive he is about everything.  It is strangely fitting that the situation is so garbled. 

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  3. I’m not sure if what is presented are the authors personal opinions as much as they are potential or likely possible meanings based on his own scholarly study of the text history and opinion, where one or all interpretations could have been intended. 
     

    The zhuangzi is at times a mess of perspectives and emphasis. I don’t think anyone is certain why that is. I don’t think there is commentary on zhuangzi until hundreds of years after it was supposed to be written. There  are many interpretations of any given story in it. These interpretations are informed by our perspectives..so I think theres a lot of reading any number of ideas into some of these stories. Translation  is yet another hurdle for interpreting. 
     

    I think it is very good to know zhuangzi relationship to The philosophy of the time and historical background of Chinese society at the time. It likely puts some things into light that many would otherwise not understand. It opens up potential interpretations. 
     

    I like the videos. For whatever reason when I read or hear the butterfly story told I never think of the idea of not holding to static identity. I’m usually just reading or hearing it and thinking..that’s cute.. you know.. who knows what’s real? next. That’s probably because zhuangzi does a better job,in my opinion, hammering these things out plainly in those beginning chapters. Some of the concepts zhuangzi speaks of are just hard for me to read into the little stories.  So yeah now the butterfly will remind me of that deeper meaning. Awesome. 

    Most of the ideas being discussed are taken from zhuangzi whether it’s what he actually meant to say with these given stories, I don’t know. I think reading zhuangzis ideas into his sometimes vague stories is not a bad way to go. 
     

    These are good videos because they explore perspective, which is very zhuangzi. Hell if one man actually wrote the whole book then he really could’ve held/entertained/was ambivalent to multiple points of view on a number of subjects.   I don’t think anyone can know the full intentions. 
     

     

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  4. I agree, their use as a hobby, stress reliever,fitness or whatever function they serve to different people is valid to me. It’s the lying to others and ourselves that is concerning to me. You’re right, people want to believe that these arts are Everything but to get the most out of them you have to use them — experience. For a lot of people just to be associated with the esteem of the art seems to be enough achievement. 
     

    life.. in the end it’s up to you and what you make of it 

     


     


  5. If fighting isn’t your thing , for fun I think a taiji practitioner could benefit from clinching with a Muay Thai fighter or judoka. I know in many martial arts groups it’s just assumed whatever it is they’re doing is going to transfer and be effective,that’s just delusional. 
     

       In life many people live fantasies. They may have no nefarious intent but their delusion can negatively impact other people. I’ve experienced this with martial art, I’ve seen it with religions and other situations where someone has knowledge and someone  else is trying to get it. (Since this is a daoist forum I’ll share that  This is in part my draw to zhuangzi philosophy. For me, I think opening your perspective  helps protect one from delusion or maybe ive just seen too many people be burnt and read it into it, unsure.)
     

       When  it comes to fighting if your teacher isn’t willing to spar, test yourself somewhere else. How can you honestly expect to use your art if no one around you is experienced? You’re going to have to learn yourself. Learn how to come at someone agressively and defend in a way that you might commonly encounter/dynamically/realistically. This alone will help your fighting awareness and help your interested classmates.
     

    Note that this  can offend your teacher or make them uneasy. That’s life.. Hopefully Your teacher is honest, interested in understanding and helping Students.


         This isn’t an issue if you don’t care about  self defense or want to avoid conflict. To echo Longrays sentiment, youd be riht to ask, if No one can actually fight or even defend themselves with your art, who dropped the ball and what else wasn’t taught along the way?  What was the standard fighting ability in the arts glory days? You just can’t know unless you step out.   Simple defense is taught in competitive fighting arts immediately and can be developed quickly, at the very least learn to avoid getting destroyed  under pressure.

    If a. 5 year student can’t defend themselves how is this not a failure? It’s really up to teachers and future teachers to bring competence to their art.Internal martial arts are refined and it takes work to achieve but the whole time you’re doing that work you should be learning universal fighting sense so that when you develop that special ability you have Atleast a chance of applying it. This whole idea is at odds with the way they’re practiced now though. 

     


       If you’re not aware of delusion your identity will fill in the holes and naturally keep you on that path. 
    Seems like a lot of people have been down this road, I hope they take the lesson that people delude themselves and they test the reality and worth of what their teachers teach in life, in general.


     


     

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  6. this was already touched on but Ill 2nd 3rd or 4th the notion that you need to try to fight to have any real truthful expectation of being effective.  You need to cultivate Fighting ability.
     

    Just about every martial art can be applied and be effective if you practice fighting. If you don’t practice actually fighting it might still work on someone who also doesn’t practice fighting. Many a brawler has won numerous fights in their town with their left hook or whatever . It’s going to get much harder when you suck at defending, evading, reading position, timing,controlling adrenaline. 
     

    I think if you can find a situation where you work at applying what you know with someone who is experienced in say kick boxing you will no longer question what you need to work on.  
     

    does it work? Yeah on some and if you can pull it off. You can’t even begin to say whether it work or not until you’re at the point that You can say you have the ability to not get destroyed instantly.  You can’t just throw a bullet at someone. You need some other important things to make that bullet effective. 
     

    I haven’t seen anyone win a fight with taiji I think you’re more likely to see a judo guy pull off taiji. I have seen just about every competing martial art win fights. I have seen a lot of non competing martial artists revert to bad boxing, brawling or just have no chance. The better the fighting ability the more art comes out In sparring,fighting.  Just thoughts 
     

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  7. I appreciate what your saying  but  I’m only commenting in hopes that original poster will not look at these things they’re talking about as a representation of all under the umbrella daoist  or  in some way to write off the whole. I don’t want to hijack this thread. I’m not saying I’m not somehow misguided, if you want to PM me about this I’m “all ears”, thanks


  8. 26 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

     

    Taoism is probably the most diverse and immersive religion? in the world.  There are so many diverse arms and many of the Taoist beliefs and practices immerse into every aspect of Chinese societies, namely fortune telling like Feng Shui, martial arts like Taichi, Chinese medicine, Food Therapy among others   All these are followed by Buddhist, Christian, Muslims. There are Taichi courses in  Christian church as well. 


    I agree with what you’re saying. I’m not trying to discredit any of the practices under the umbrella. I’m saying laozi and zhuangzi would not like to be associated with political/religious power struggles and some idea of only temples for the rich.

     

    I’m saying this question should be much more specific and wish I could’ve wrote what you did instead of “ I believe it represents the whole gamut”. Whose  perspective under such a broad group are we trying to get?? What one group does  does not represent the whole.


  9. For what it’s worth I think laozi and zhuangzi would be very disapointed to be associated with anything like this. maybe”daoist” is a better term for modern organized and religious groups but in my understanding it represents the whole gamut . In my head using the simple broad brush term, daoist, to pose this question is..not the best. 


  10. I don’t think zhuangzi ever says “go with the flow”. But I don’t speak ancient Chinese or modern Chinese so I rely on varying translations. I’m not sure the origins of the phrase “ go with the flow” but I’m pretty indifferent to it. There’s no way you’re going to,capture what zhuangzi is talking about in such a short phrase. It sounds like some 60s slogan, catchy easily.. I just looked his up

    Origin

    This expression was first recorded to be used by the Roman Emperor, Marcus Arelius, in his writings "The Meditations". He penned a lot about the flow of happiness and thoughts and he surmised that most things flow naturally and in his opinion it was better to go with the flow than to try and change society. Then sometime in 1960s America, this expression was ascribed to the hippies, who liked outdoor activities but also espoused a philosophy of taking life easy, not getting worked up, not struggling or fighting. These people drew an analogy from the way they kayaked and rafted on white water to the way life should be led, by going with the flow.

    Source: theidioms.com

     

    that is not surprising considering. Marcus’ stoic roots. A philosophy which shares some similarities with daoist ideas. Still I think no one knows the real origin and I think the phrase means different things to different minds (very broad)

     


  11. Honestly this story is not the clearest in  message. It’s spoken by Confucius making it even more unclear about the intentions of the whole thing.  Different translations also really change the overall intention of it. 
     

    the original quot you posted, attributed to zhuangzi, seems like an overall simplified paraphrase of zhuangzi.

     

    My feeling about “go with the flow” is that it’s in a way accurate and also so broad that it could apply to many philosophies. 
     

    this chapter is about connecting with or going with the way, he describes a sort of primitive man in touch with the way.  In this case (story)they’re already talking about an advanced thinker who seems to accepted certain unknown things in life as unknowable and in this way doesn’t attach all the false proclamations or worry of self or identity. He questions self and reality trying to link back to the idea that if you lose yourself (kind of like we can imagine an animal or primitive man from the beginning) you can get in touch with the way. Mengsun is concerned with his current state not  worried about what is next.  
     

    That’s what I got from it. I haven’t put much thought into this section because I’m caught up in human life and took it as  advanced level detachment. I’m more of a dao sympathizer when it comes to these things, they would have dramatic impact on everything in your life —much easier for a recluse or something. (Not ready for them)
     

     


  12. The different translations can  vary pretty dramatically but this snippet kind of fits the last line of a story in chapter 6 . 
     

    When one rests in what has been arranged, and puts away all thought of the transformation, he is in unity with the mysterious Heaven."  
     

    The story is roughly giving the advice of the quote, but it’s not what one would expect from the quote alone. 
     

    I can see how you could turn that into that quote. Your quote is much more broad and immediately relatable though.  It could be somewhere else in there.


  13. though I can’t give a daoist  view, I can share an opinion and my current view which is definitely inspired by daoist writings. 
      
    I think this topic and the topic of eating of animals is GREAT one for seeing and understanding human thought and how dynamic it is.

    . Because the answer changes with the world,with people,with environments, with time. We can look back and forward, to rationality,logic, to our hearts, to this and that. We can see how identity plays its role in those who pick sides, those who latch on and make this decision part of their life’s work. How people can get caught up with their beliefs to the point they’re swept away. It is a topic that points out our conditional nature and one that shows us that we don’t know. 

     

    It’s all hinging on culture and perspective. Some of your ancestors would’ve saw your problem as a blessing and made lunch. Humans are unique animals in this regard. We essentialLy create our nature through ideas interpretations and abstractions of events happening to us, much of which is inherited.  Even if we have some innate instinct, it can be masked with new ideas( positive or negative) which feel as though they are our nature. 
     

    what does an ape do or different apes do? Does it clear all life from its home and set boundaries between it and the world? I honestly don’t know.. do people who lived in the forest or jungle do this? Do all of them? some people hold spiders, love spiders, eat spiders, differentiate threat levels of spiders, kill all spiders.  
     

    We can say it’s natural to defend a threat. The question here is what is a threat? This would be the appeal to not killing them simply for intrusion. In this situation you probably have the luxury and burden of having a home (and considering a decent one) one  which is expensive, strong and labor intensive. Someone else may the the luxury and burden of having a home which is cheap not so labor intensive but relatively weak. Some have space, some have no space.. Our realities drive our perspective, drive our opinions, and then options.   All of it is an opinion and personal choice when someone is given the opportunity and wherewithall to choose . Logically something could be “right” but objectively who the hell knows. The tendency to follow the balance is fairly intuitive especially considering we owe our lives to it. 
     

    Daoism to me and maybe only to me, Is encouraging the ability to SEE not to define or pretend on  things like this.

     



     


     

     

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  14. 6 hours ago, Mig said:

    I still don't understand the rationale of Daoists or Buddhists about no killing precepts where in many instances you need to kill insects because of their intrusion. I am learning to live with them in the garden and so far we were in good understanding that I wouldn't bother them if they are in their territory in the garden but then sometimes they go to flowers in an orange tree or flowers and damages it, so have to find ways to diver them and indeed Borax works marvelous. I don't think too much as in the garden, I let nature do its thing, birds, insects, racoons, skunks, possums, coyotes and domestic pets do their thing. Just finding the balance and everyone is living their thing.


     

    It’s a matter of conscience. Buddha was alleged   to  have grown up sheltered (as many  are today) from nature’s conditions. This changes perspective on a deep level. I don’t know the whys of how Buddhists developed these ideas but it’s pretty easy to see how monks who don’t live normal lives could follow their heart to this conclusion. They are following their conscience, applying it fairly,Consistently to life. It’s easy to understand if you can stop putting your perspective in the way. Whether they’re right or wrong and the fact that it’s inconvenient or limiting or potentially dangerous to themselves or etc etc is all a different matter. . with this type of belief life can become uncomfortable to not follow your conscience. You might gladly trade inconvenience for piece of mind or ‘enlightenment’.

    You definitely want to ask some Buddhists who practice this if you want their specific views on this...All anyone who hasn’t practiced this can do is give you a flat plane summary of a 3D subject.I’m not saying you are but  It’s good to not write off perspectives based on flat or biased summaries and focus what you can experience.  
     

    As far as daoism is concerned, in my experience, any of the 2000 year+ old writings would be advising to not get caught up in contentions of what you can’t know. They would also be attempting to free you of a lot of dogma. Later sects, religious or otherwise seem to have their own varying interpretations.

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  15. I think this is personal opinion. It’s going to be sects of daoism that Have these beliefs because of influence of Buddhist ideas and depending on the culture or communities aversion to death and understanding. You can’t see how Logically it would seem proper to not kill things we didn’t have to, especially from our human social perspective? It’s logical consistency overflowing from how we view other humans. The trouble is the worlds functioning is indifferent and we don’t have true knowledge of what and why life is. Zhuangzi touches on these kinds of dilemmas of logic and shows that ultimately your “truth”will be ties to your perspective and since we lack the “ultimate truth” about just about everything there’s going to be a whole lot of perspectives. 
     

    there’s going to be a a number of different “daoisms” you should look into why that is and it will help you understand better


  16. "Also, yes, I *have* tried just doing nothing (no meditation or energetic practices) and just living a normal life, for several months at a time, and that produces no change or difference whatsoever."

     

    I am not experienced with energy work or any intense systematic meditation so..you know.. keep that in mind

     

    You've invested a considerable part of your life to this and you seem to genuinely believe in your damage and energy work of all kinds.

     

    Do you find when youre living normally you're actually mentally living normally? Sometimes our mind latch on to our bodies in defense, out of fear and out of insecurity. I don't mean logical fear either, can be trauma can be pressure from expectation or belief. 

    How much does this kind of practice mean to your self? Do you feel this practice, in your mind, keeping you from instability or did you in the past?  These kinds of emotional contingencies and conflicts can create tension, instability, fear.  

    these kind of changes are often years in the making and they can take some time to resolve and by resolve I mean grow/adapt to new stimulus/direction.

     

    I suggest you practice letting go, and just   embrace life, ramp up your hopefully mainly positive experiences so that you learn and stimulate growth over time. I'm not you so I can't know how you think or what your mind feels under what you think, but with time hopefully your mind will find the importance of feeling and find security again. 

     

    If that doesn't work

    maybe try psychotherapy without drugs if you haven't. One who specializes in chronic emotionally driven pain might have insights that help. 

     

    i know that you've tried being normal" for a while but, maybe give it another try and try to relax the conflict and expectation of your mind. Engage as best you can and get life to bring you out again. 

     

    What I'm talking about may not be part of your problem and it maybe half of the problem and it may be all of the problem. Idk but I hope you feel better 


  17. I’m not a daoist but I believe the daoist would see predation as a natural fact.  Not judging bad or good. 

     

    In a sheltered world we create Where we develop to human artificiality , it creates much more conflict in us. 
     

    Laozi and zhuangzi lived in a time where for sure people lived more at the whim of nature’s conditions. This would give them much different perspective,One that would make the question probably not even come up..
     

    really this is a complex topic.. it also depends on the reasoning for vegetarianism, health, practicality, ethics, would they be against factory farming or regular farming or hunting. I can see a primitivst argument against farming.


    I never knew it was part of Daoism.. maybe a Buddhist influence?  

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  18. wang fuzhi understanding and my understanding of what zhuangzi was saying are pretty congruent. Good to know :)

     

    I wish humans default to the way, but we seem to be natural dao obscurers/complicators

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  19. On 10/27/2019 at 1:09 PM, Rara said:

     

    I might be in need of a break down if I haven't understood your question but...

     

    Wu wei is a pretty old idea, right?

     

    "You’re kind of saying that the the goal is not the unintentional outcome of things practically working out?."

     

    Had to double-quote because this has thrown me with the double negative - sorry!

    I was just trying to say that.. there’s some sentiment that the practicality of following “the way” is just a bi product and not the focus. Depending on who or even what part of what you’re reading in one of the old books, there seems to be shifting focus ranging from strong detachment, philosophical/practical manipulation of situation, “internal alchemy”. . 

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  20. On 10/25/2019 at 2:52 AM, Rara said:

     

    I say actually, understand nothing. I sum up Daoism as a philosophy of no philosophy. Moreso the "undoing" of what has already been done.

     

    Relax...forget. The true essence of us lies underneath all the mess that's in our minds.

     

    So we can say kinda at odds with the “practical philosophy” mindset.. I get different ideas and feelings about this from different people and things I read, seems like some days people are more interested in entertaining the world that most of us have to live In and other times riding that detachment train. This why I say ultimately it would be clouds practical philosophy influence by daoism.  You’re kind of saying that the the goal is not the unintentional outcome of things practically working out?. I think the old writings and New often promote both aspects. That deeper sentiment is there though 


  21. 48 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

    I imagine as i sit here sipping my coffee, in ancient daoist times, certain folks sitting about the chess cafe talking practical philosophy and looking down their nose at the common plebes, assuming them incapable of 'getting it', while being cat called in return by the local farmers and log splitters who walked by wondering what type of morons managed to stay alive, without a real job, spewing impractical words and concepts at each other endlessly over tea and gameboard pieces... 

     

    Humans do as humans do.  Some talk.  Some act.  Some do both.

    Some just doodoo.

     

    None of them are wrong in my opinion... just doing as they do...

     

    And knowing this can free you from “yourself”, I think.  Then you are getting out of your way 

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  22. So understand things then align them so they’re in the path of least resistance?.. practical daoist?

     

    i think I could say this but if I didn’t  elaborate someone reading this who didn’t have the same understanding would miss out on what I intended.  I could be grumpy and just say.. pay attention! 

     

    This is probably a big source for a lot of variation in thinking.  Simply expressed concepts that are not so simple in their ramifications. It is kinda entertaining that it’s a bit of a puzzle that keeps on giving. I guess it again up to you 

     

     

     

     

     


  23. Honestly it’s pretty amazing that over 2000 years ago they weren’t just saying a bunch of culturally predjudiced shit and question things you wouldn’t think someone from that time would. 

     

     I guess I’m just too focused on the overall outlook. I think most people do these kind of things in their life though.

     

    Experience and awareness lead understanding.  Life is dynamic  Pay attention. If I had a practical philosophy it would say something like this.  

     

    You often prevent sticking by heating the pan to cooking temperature before adding oil before adding the food. ..   It illustrates the dynamics. The pan,the heat, the oil, the food, the time and if it doesn’t work out the soaking in water amongst other things. Many things are like this,Nice

     

     

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