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Hi freeform, thanks for responding to my post. A few things: Regarding the messed up behavior of some spiritual teachers and how to account for it I would suggest that maybe a social context which venerates them as perfected saints is the main problem. Bowing at someone's feet with the tacit or openly stated belief that they are God basically in human form seems like it has the potential to bring forth some pretty unskillful behavior on the part of the one being venerated. Imagine having hundreds or thousand s of followers telling you that you are a perfected God-man incapable of moral fallibility. It is not hard to see how such a situation could really mess up a person's moral compass, especially if they haven't had much in the way of real world life experience. That said, I do think there are meditative practices that can bring forth virtue in a person like the Daoist stuff you mentioned or metta practice in Buddhism or probably lots of other stuff as well. Regarding the achievability of sainthood while in a human body I think from a Buddhist perspective we would likely be talking about the complete elimination of desire and aversion. It is hard to see how a person in a human body could operate without the desire to take the next breath of air for example or without aversion to the pain of banging their knee into a sharp objects or whatever. There are basic inbuilt mechanisms to avoid pain in the human body mind that seem so core to who we are that to have them go away entirely seems both inconceivable and inadvisable. Without some base level of aversion and attraction we wouldn't be humans anymore but something else altogether. Now, if there are people who can transform their body into light, those people maybe are canidates for sainthood. The rest of us in our suffering human bodies, maybe not so much. Do you think you have met people you would say are saints? If so, how do you know? How would you determine the saintliness of a person?

Not sure I agree about the "spiritual teachers should be saints" idea. Of course, spiritual teachers should be held to the standards of conduct we expect of normal people (don't be a murderer etc..) But, the word "saint" implies something far more than that, something more akin to moral perfection. I'm open to be proven wrong here but it seems to me that as long as we are in a human bodies, moral perfection is an unrealistic fantasy and moreover a dangerous one at that. Of course, we can try to live our lives morally but that is pretty different from perfection. Maybe it is the idea of being a morally perfect being that leads to and excuses the creepy behavior of some spiritual teachers in some cases. Sorta like how the bright sun makes for dark shadows.

Freeform, Your take on what you are calling awakening is sort of unusual. Maybe it would be helpful to clarify a few things around what you are saying? First off, for the sake of this conversation at least, can we agree to call awakening arriving at a state of non duality that leaves a sort of permanent change in a person? I think that that would be a pretty good rough definition. And, assuming you agree to that definition, and also assuming I am getting your story right, are you saying you had a qigong teacher who ran some kind of medical qigong clinic who regularly treated people who claimed some kind of awakening? It sounds like you have been involved in several lines of practice, if you don't mind me asking, where are you getting your view on awakening from? While I certainly can recognize that a lot of people claiming some kind of awakening are in fact experiencing some kind of mental illness it seems some people are experiencing the real thing. Also, it seems to me that awakening (per my rough definition above) is basically the goal of practice. Do you agree with all this? I am trying to get some perspective on where you are coming from.

Hey Xiao meng, If you don't mind me asking, what is next for you after you have fully developed the ldt? You mentioned practices to develop the middle and upper dantians. What do these practices look like and what do they hope to achieve?

I see, thank you for the response. One more question if you don't mind. Is it dangerous for you to fa qi without supervision? Or does it not really matter?

Xiao meng, Hi, a couple questions and please forgive me if I have asked you this before and have forgotten. First- can you fa qi on your own? Or do you need a master's help to fa qi. Second- if you don't mind sharing, what does your daily practice look like? What do you do (generally speaking, not asking for specific exercises) and about how much time do you spend on it? Thanks

I think this is an important discussion and I wanted to take a stab at summarizing my understanding of the arguments here. Please correct me if you feel I am missing something: Freeform (and Walker, kinda): Cultivating xing without cultivating ming (as done by the majority of buddhists for example) is problematic. It can yield "awakenings" which in themselves are at best preludes to real spiritual achievement and at worse can cause people to become delusional spiritual monsters. A better way to go is to cultivate xing and ming. When the ming is transformed real physical changes occur. For instance, people who have properly cultivated the ming can turn their physical bodies into a body made of light and go live on higher planes if they wish. This is a valid goal of spiritual cultivation and physical transformations such as the one just described are proof that "real" spiritual stuff has occurred unlike the "awakenings" claimed by xing-only people which might just be a fanciful notion. Dwai: Achieving awakening is the point of spiritual practice. What is the point of flying around the universe in a body made of light if your mind is still mired in dualism? Practices that liberate the mind from the delusion of self are the best way to go and abiding in a deep state of permanent non-duality is the best and most valid result of successful spiritual practice. Although this may not result in flesh and blood transformation of the physical body who cares? The important thing is that the illusion of self is dissolved and the knot of karma binding us to our suffering is untied forever. Although the physical body may continue up till death in a normal way, it doesn't really matter because the mind has been liberated from it's attachment to the body and everything else too. Sorry if I was a bit blunt or maybe using different terminology than you would, but do you think this is a fair accounting of this conversation? I feel like this is one of those arguments that never really goes away haha.

Hey, Firstly, this is a bit off topic so my apologies for that. Freeform: you mentioned entering Jhanna and perceiving Shen Ming. Do you or your teachers see these things as essentially the same? Maybe this is a topic for another thread but I felt I had to ask!

Hello, Regarding the post quoted above: can you or your neidan teacher do any of the things mentioned to an significant degree? And if so would you mind sharing a bit about who they are and what they practice? Thanks

Hmm.. I was hoping you were going to say something like "yes, I know a 372 year old Daoist who looks to be about 25" Regarding your statement above, I had an alcoholic ex-boss who, despite being in his 40's, didn't look a day over 35. His apparent youthfulness had nothing to do with the any sort of spiritual cultivation though, he just looked young for some reason. It's cool if whatever it is that the person you mentioned is practicing has resulted in vitality and youthful healthfulness Those are good things for sure, but I'm not sure that they can be equated with the kind of extreme transformation (ending the ageing process and becoming an Immortal) mentioned in the original post.

Ok, Would you be willing to share who this person is who accomplished this (reversal of ageing) is? Is it you, or is it someone you know? Or is it someone you have heard about?

Well, I guess if the topic concerns methods to stop or reverse ageing, then the question is:. "does anyone know anyone, or know anyone who knows anyone who has either stopped or reversed the ageing process" If not, then what is there to talk about here besides some empty theorizing?

For some reason I feel compelled to add my 2 cents to this thread. Here is how I look at things, and I think that there is ample evidence to support this view. Practices designed to build an extremely dense field of qi in the dantian capable of objective manifestation (setting things on fire, pushing things without touching etc..) carry significant risks. If you have an untreated blockage in the meridian system (and most of us probably do), then pumping up the dantian indiscriminately will likely make it worse resulting in illness and even death. I should point out here that the 2 most open western proponents of mo pai training BOTH got cancer. One of them died from it. At the very least, it should be enough to raise some eyebrows. These practices are no joke. If you want to engage in them, in my opinion you should find a master willing and capable of evaluating your condition medically and treating it if necessary. Also, I think it is important to have regular access to said master so that deviations caused by practice can likewise be treated and the practice adjusted accordingly. The qi in your body is what keeps you alive. Fuck it up and you get sick. Fuck it up even worse and you die. A lot of people who have practiced this stuff without proper supervision have gotten sick. Some have even died. Why do that to yourself? Have a nice day, Mike BTW the ideas expressed above are not entirely my own. The qigong master of my school has treated many many people with significant issues caused by improper practice. It seems to be a common problem.

Hello, Regarding the original post, I would have to say that experiencing the qi emitted by Master Wu, student of the late great Master Jiang Feng was the most real qi experience I've had. It was like a massive wave of vibrating electricity. As real as the floor under your feet or the cars speeding by on the highway. If anyone else out there has had similar experiences with other people I would love to hear about it.. Feel free to PM me or respond in this thread. It would be cool to start to develop a list of the many people who seem to have some kind of (relatively) objectively verifiable energy development goin' on.

Hi everybody, I'm writing to let you all know that a close student of David Verdesi will be teaching the foundation practices of David's HPRD system in the US. I learned these practices 3 years ago at a seminar taught by David in Rome and I've practiced them daily since. I really can't recommend them enough to people who want a solid base from which to cultivate qi or shen. The cost of the training is $1500 per person. Please feel free to PM me with any questions or whatever. Mike

hi, Zoom, you said: Are you aware of Jackson Peterson saying anywhere that: 1: he personally knows (or knew) anyone who attained rainbow body? 2: that he expects to attain rainbow body himself (or already has to some degree)? If so, could you direct me to where he says this? I would be really interested to know more.

Hi everyone, I thought I'd write a few words about the seminar which took place in San Francisco. First of all, without going into details, the practice we learned was very simple with not much in the ways of extraneous bells and whistles. Please understand, when I say "simple" I in no way mean "easy." The practice is rather demanding both mentally and physically (especially mentally). It felt like the stripped down, real essence of qigong. Hardcore stuff, no fancy magical fluff. The seminar basically consisted of alternating sessions of practice and theory. In the sessions devoted to theory, Grady put a strong emphasis on grounding the practice in the matrix of Chinese thought and culture. He did this by dissecting the Chinese characters for important concepts (jing qi shen, yin-yang etc..), analyzing their component parts, and then bringing it all back together to arrive at a composite meaning much deeper than any simplistic one to one correlation with an English word could provide. This was a really cool approach that I think transmitted the flavor of the practice much more accurately than a more English-centric approach could hope to. When not practicing or learning theory, I spent time hanging out with fellow seminar participants, or walking around San Francisco, a very pretty, and very very hilly city. All in all, a really excellent seminar. A really fascinating method, very clearly explained, with a really very nice group of friendly qigong eccentrics! mike

cool, thanks for your response. mike

YM, thanks for your reply, I must admit, you said the exact opposite of what I expected! If you don't mind, could you describe a little bit what you mean by a "transmission"? I expect that the term refers to something more than having a master on hand to offer corrections and answer questions, but other than that I am a little vague on what the actual meaning is... mike

YM Wong, In your opinion, what are the possibilities of a non Chinese person being successful with these practices? Do you think essential aspects of these practices can be removed from their original cultural matrix and "transplanted" into a foreign (modern, western) culture? mike

hi everyone, like a lot of people, I am fascinated by accounts of qigong masters with "electric qi" such as the famous John Chang for instance. anyways, I created this thread as a place for people to blabber and jabber about their experiences with masters who can produce a tangible current of energy similar to electricity. maybe not the most spiritually elevated reason for a thread I know.... but still, electric qi, who has got it, and who does not?? mike

fizix: The course is being taught by a different Sean, not Sean Denty sorry for the confusion. Naziri: I'm in no way any kind of official spokesperson for David. I only spent 2 weeks with him at a seminar in Rome 3 years ago. For that reason, I feel it might be inappropriate for me to engage in lengthy discussions about his achievements/abilities/character etc. especially on a public forum. I will say however that at the seminar he demonstrated his qi to us on 2 separate occasions. Both times it felt similar (yet different in some ways) to a strong electric current. The sensation of the qi was utterly clear and concrete. Nothing vague or subjective about it whatsoever. I'm sorry I can't answer your question about iron body/ iron palm. I'm not exactly sure what you mean by those terms or how they would relate to the system David teaches. I am only a beginner after all! take care, mike

Ok, for further clarification: Here is a basic idea of what is offered. Very basic, again for those truly interested PM me. Yes XSZ will be taught along with a specific sequence of zhan zhuang postures to promote activation of the qi in a specific manner to support the development of this training. Sheng Zheng Gong will also be taught which is the sitting method of meditation, and no its not quite as simple as just empty sitting. There is the possibility of some nei gong being taught. Its usually not taught until the student has some base and the body and mind is prepared from the previous practices. The foundation practices are extremely powerful and efficient in establishing the base required however they are certainly not the only way and the teacher has said that even if you are new to these specific practices if your base is good then he will teach some NG as well. Just to be clear, I am not here to debate or even discuss David or his practices. I'm simply offering the information and opportunity for those who are interested. For those who just want to voice opinions on David or his practices feel free to start a different thread. This is not directed at anyone in particular, its simply that I would prefer to avoid this thread heading in the direction that this topic usually goes.

Fizix, Thanks for the response, it gives me the opportunity to clarify a few things. First, David is not giving the teachings, it is one of his students named Sean. Second, the content of the seminar will probably include a moving practice (the xing shen zhuang form you mentioned), some standing postures and a sitting meditation practice, with the emphasis being on the sitting. Thirdly, regarding these being teachings "given freely for years" I am not sure what you mean. Although there are videos of people doing the XSZ form online, I think it would be very hard to learn from them. As for the sitting meditation, I am not aware of any free descriptions of the technique being offered, and even if there were, it's hard to imagine being able to practice it effectively without the guidance of an actual teacher.

Hi, I'm going to be moving to southern China (near Thailand) in the fall and was curious about qigong master Luo Kang Qi. For instance: is he open to teaching westerners? If so, what is it that he does teach, and around what does he charge generally? Please feel free to send me a PM if you want to share but don't feel like answering in the general forum. thanks, Mike