Wuji108

I would love to see a listing of Taoist Temples in the States and where they are, their lineage, and something about their history. Would this be possible to add to the forum as a resource?

@Todd Thank you for laying all of this out...

I differentiate between Qi and Spirit. If you look at the 3 treasures: Jing, Qi, Shen/essence,energy, spirit then the Jing is closest to physical, Qi to energy, and Shen to spirit or to the driver... We could use the car analogy to say that Jing is the car, Qi is the gasoline and Shen is the driver. The spirit is the source of intention...Intention is the source of manifestation. The pre-heaven spirit is also the thing that carries through life to life. The Jing and the Qi are exhaustible. Then there is the post-heaven spirit - the ego, emotions and intelligence... and the pre-heaven spirit - the intuition, the intention, the observer Just a few thoughts...

How very true - to maintain practice while carrying on ordinary life so that the practice is ordinary life shifts us radically...the the ordinary human becomes the very best ordinary human and eventually morphs, quietly, without ceremony into the sage or immortal on earth...

Not sure about the proof aspect - direct experience of all the life threads removes the need for "proof". If we are out of balance then we have karma, if we are in balance then no karma. What takes us out of balance? attachment, desire, emotion, ego, all those things that bring us back into the mortal plane of existence. But karma also has an element of time associated with it - past action creates future effect - an activation of "Return is the motion of the Tao" even while "there is no time, there is no space" and all actions and reactions exist simultaneously and without the constraint of time, the threads of existence coil together through time and space...

Woops - posted twice same message...

The reason for monks to remain celibate is for preservation of Jing which is lost through ejaculation in males and in females more through menstruation. But complete celibacy/no orgasm can cause stagnation in the lower Jiao (the belly) so unless you have practices for keeping the Jing/Qi from stagnating you should have orgasm at least once per week/month/quarter depending on your age from a pure health perspective. That being said I do think we create links to people through sexual encounters. Energetic links. Those links can be "undone" when the attachment to the person, the role, the drama, the emotion, etc. are released. I tried to sever all those links at once a few years back - this was not a good way to do it - some couldn't be cut, I ended up ill and injured for about a week afterward, and then all kinds of people that I hadn't heard from or thought of in years popped into my life for the next few months. For the links that couldn't be cut, I had to gradually lessen them first. There were a lot of unexpected changes in the people around me during this process, that may have had to do with the severing of the links, especially for my children (not that we'd had sex, but a link had been established with them preceding birth). So if you want to do something like that, based on my own idiocy, I would suggest going a little more slowly...

I have no problem accessing Tao Bums from China - am in Wudangshan near ShiYan City (around 5 hours from Xian.) To access Facebook they may need to set up a VPN Tunnel...not sure exactly how to do it...

Hi Cameron, I am in Wudang Shan for just three more weeks and then I head back to the US. Have been a "Wandering Taoist" for the past three years and not sure where I'll land next... Where in China are you? Best, Corinne

The Ayurvedic/Buddhist 5 elements are ether, air, water, fire, earth as opposed to the Taoist 5 elements which are wood, fire, earth, metal and water. The two sets do not correlate directly, although there are, of course, similarities.

The perspective of reconciliation of opposing forces comes into play here - recognizing when enough is enough - I have enough to feed myself today, so that is enough...I don't have to store so much food in my pantry that much of it sits there for years. I don't have to have ten outfits for each season, I don't have to compete with the Jones. At the same time, yes, I do live so I need food, shelter, clothing, etc, and it is okay to live above subsistence level. The universe will provide. Emotion is natural, and a gift - when is it responded to and acknowledged at its point of origin and then released. The moment we attach to emotion and create drama we are attaching. The moment drama enters the picture, a "need" or attachment has been activated. We attach also to different roles - for example - I may put myself into the role of hero - rushing in to help/heal people. Or I may habitually put myself into the role of victim - attach to the role of victim. This form of attachment is the subject of Taoist Xing (essential nature) training. If we attach to a role, who are we really? And then that brings in the whole question of dialectics - how do we move beyond the yin/yang of the universe? What is the dynamic that lets us bring indulgence and abstention into balance? How do we get to the point of knowing when enough is enough and moving past a particular attachment? How do we shift our perspective to be present in the contentment of the moment and acceptance of what is now? This is such a huge subject - attachment takes so many forms, beyond attachment to things and people...

attachment, desire, need - all aspects of the same thing - the delusion that we are separate from the Tao, that we don't have access to everything, that the world is illusion, etc.... so no difference in essence, perhaps just in object and in quality. Healthy vs unhealthy qualitative and quantitative - does it take you closer to heaven or further from heaven - does it help you to improve your frequency (become more yang) or does it degrade your frequency/block you even more from direct experience of the Tao. Eventually even the desire to be done with the wheel of life, the desire to merge with the Tao has to be released. To be in that state of direct union/direct experience...to be in absolute stillness, there has to be no need...no ego, no mind, no judgment. The beauty is the recognition of the natural human state and so no bitterness of where we are now. It is simply whatever it is. The question then is what action will you take... Initially we do "need" the healthy desire to change, to improve, to go to heaven, to fulfill our life purpose and mission, but when we approach the gate, we have have to have no need...

Taoists believe we need to let go of attachment, ego and the control of the five thieves (five senses) all of which can take us off balance and take us out of the internal harmony which is required for internal alchemy. There is a story of Zhen Wu (the Truth Warrior - patron immortal of Wudang Shan - who was an incarnation of the Jade Emperor). The Jade Emperor was sitting in heaven one day when he saw these beautiful lights at the edge of heaven - curiosity arose in his heart and the desire to know what the lights were. Immediately, with the advent of desire, one of his 72 spirits split off and was incarnated into a baby that was to be born to the King of one of the regions of China (sorry can't remember the region's name). While the splinter of the Jade Emperor's spirit was down on earth, the Jade Emperor was not present and the business of heaven was not taken care of (for 4 and half days - while Zhen Wu cultivated for 42 years on earth). There is a lot more to the story, but in this case, the belief that we are "cast out of heaven" when desire arises in our hearts is the key element. Our objective is to eliminate (eventually) all earthly desire and then eventually to also let go of the healthy desire to go to heaven. The means for doing this vary... For example, one of the 8 Immortals had to overcome his desire for sex, so he went to live in a house of prostitution. Eventually he lost his desire for sex (I think it maybe took him 19 years or something like that...) But, yes, we want to eliminate desire...

What are immortals - if you accept the basic Taoist tenets that we are all immortals (or were before we had to leave the yang world because desire or attachment rose in our spirit) and that the purpose of life is to return to the yang world (heaven) then there is no separation between us and immortals - we've just "forgotten" how to be immortal and have to relearn how to unite fire and water to be able to create the immortal fetus, nurture it and eventually grow into full flower... Belief in immortals is central to Taoism - if you don't believe in immortals, by definition you're not a Taoist. But what does that mean to us when we're in the ordinary mortal stage of development? There are different types of immortals - the big three - the Original three - who bear many striking similarities to the big three of the Indian pantheon of the gods, then there's the Jade Emperor, then there are so many more...there are community immortals...kitchen gods, immortals responsible for each aspect of the material world - thunder, the rivers, the ocean, the flowers, the earth, and more...protecting heaven, healing, marriage, screening heavenly applicants, the list goes on... Another random thought on immortals = when we ascend we gather all the splinters of our soul together to go to heaven with us all at once - our antecedents, our descents, all come at once. And if you think about there being no time or space, then all of our incarnations also ascend with us all at once... but the key to becoming immortal is to be the very best ordinary human you can be first...so, be human... Just random thoughts...

I study with a Long Men Pai (Dragon Gate Sect) (24th generation) and Sanfeng Pai (13th generation) Taoist priest: Master Tseng (Yun Xiang Tseng). This is part of the Complete Reality School of Taoism. It is also influenced by the Xuan Wu Pai which is local to the Wudang Mountains in Hubei Province. The Long Men sect teaches about dual cultivation of Xing and Ming. My favorite thing is "The purpose of life is happiness"...

"OK but if we look at cancer for example and mutations that occur,are they influenced by the state of mind of the cancer sufferer at all? Has a different sate of mind that has been brought on by movments and breathing heleped cure the illnes in some people?" Absolutely the state of the mind can bring about absolute change in the state of the body. Let's look at the body as this wonderful "machine" that strives for homeostasis and is self-healing to a degree that most of us just take for granted. Then the question can shift to "what prevents the body from healing itself?" If we use a physics type model of the world, then truly we are all matter vibrating at different frequencies and modulations. If I alter my thinking, my energetic vibratory signature changes - my brain waves shift, different parts of the brain activate or go to sleep, the parasympathetic nervous system kicks in or not. All of this is well documented. So perhaps it's really about creating an environment in which the body can do its self-healing work unimpeded... One of the principles of Qi Gong's function is that first there is energy, then there is the physical. Let's suppose that we have "undigested emotional detritus" in other words, say as children we experienced trauma that was too intense, too scary, too much to process at the time so we stuffed it (we did the stiff upper lip thing...) That emotional garbage didn't go away, rather it gets stuck in the energetic body and creates a blockage or excess or whatever. That blockage in the energetic eventually shows up as some form of chronic illness or physical injury. When we do Qi Gong and begin to smooth and clear the energetic body, the emotional stuff shows up for processing. If we still don't process it, it will simply stay lodged where it was or go find a new hiding place in the body. So a key to the healing process is to develop a method for processing and releasing all the old emotional detritus as it comes up for processing. The physical triggers the emotional, the emotional triggers the physical - the two cannot be separated. And it is absolutely possible to make changes in the health through this. I like the idea that was brought up earlier about epigenetics - it explains the genetic changes - the genetic material was always there - it just needed to be turned on or off and that results in the appearance of genetic mutation...the Qi Gong and meditation change the internal environment triggering the epigenetic transformation and so we make the shift from ordinary human, to extraordinary human to immortal on earth to immortal in heaven...

This is sort of like the question of what is evil - what is not of this world or nature or...the universe... The Tao is going with the flow until you can direct the flow and then go with the flow that you direct. I was taught that from a Taoist perspective the only evil is to teach fear of god...So, the only un-Taoist thing would be to teach fear of god. Fear of god separates us from the source or Tao of all and removes us from our path of union with the Tao...who wants union with that which they fear?

If you change your DNA you are in essence changing your ancestral Qi and your "karma". This is supposed to be possible to bring about through two methods: One is the physical - Ming cultivation, which alters the energetic foundation of the body, from which the grosser form of the physical is generated. It makes sense that if you change the source material (the Qi) that the manifest (the body/DNA) would also change. This would be hard to test, but certainly is in the realm of possibility. A big challenge is that to make change at this level, you have to believe it to be in the realm of the possible, like growing back a digit that has been severed...or reversing incurable diseases through Qi Gong practice.... The second method is through the cultivation of virtue - Xing or essential nature cultivation. Through this level of cultivation you essentially build back good deed credit - when you do that you alter your "karma". The good deed credit or virtue level is the only thing that you can take with you when you die... Because you can take this dual approach, it is supposed to be possible to reverse and fix any inherited "stuff" and achieve immortality in this lifetime. This stuff is so COOL!!!

Prayer and Ceremonial arts are two different aspects of Taoist religious/prayer practice. The Taoist Ceremonial Arts include specific liturgy that invokes Immortals (deities) for specific purposes. These are done by the priests in the temples and follow specific patterns and include specific talismans for the purpose of invoking specific response. For example there is a ceremony for the Blessing of the Ancestors to help them along their way in the transition between life and being sorted into the next life. There are specific ceremonies for Peace, for blessing the community, Daily morning invocations, evening invocations, and more. The western version of prayer is not so common - in fact, it is considered bad form to come and beg to the gods. That being said the Taoist practitioner can ask the gods to bring good things to their family, their community, etc. and in that way pray. When invoking the connection to the spirit world it is considered best to come to them with thanks for the good in life.

I think you have raised an important aspect of the development of Virtue which is the aspect of Xing development or development of essential nature. Until and unless we've peeled back the layers of egoic accumulation our virtue is still subject to the ego's vagaries. So if we try to do acts of virtue out of the desire to be a hero, or to accrue credit, then the virtuous act is not virtuous. For an act to be truly virtuous it is done because it is our stable and true nature to act/behave in this way without seeking credit or other personal benefit. In that way perhaps the virtue is stable. What do you think?

Stillness in motion refers to keeping the internal calm and maintaining that center even as we practice Tai Chi or Qi Gong or, as we become more masterful, as we do our work in the world. It refers to moving meditation. Motion in stillness refers to the movement of Qi that occurs when we achieve external stillness, quiet the mind and the emotions. Wu wei does not stand by itself. The full quotation is "do nothing and leave nothing undone": Wu wei er bu wei. "do nothing" is about non-attachment, about not creating emotional attachment to the outcome of our effort and about not triggering ego activation. Leave nothing undone means to do the work to the best of our ability, completely and entirely. Do it so well that when we are done we know in ourselves that we have achieved to our best level. The nature of the work doesn't matter - hanging doors, washing dishes, trading stocks, or sitting in meditation. It is the intent and the focus applied to the work that are important. Doing our work in such a way that we are secure in the knowledge that it has been well done and that we can rest easy in that knowing.

This is a great discussion... I have been taught that the practice of Virtue is closely tied to the Three Treasures of the Tao: Mercy, Conscience, and Forgiveness as applied first to ourselves and then to others. They are neither moralistic nor yin/yang - they are more about the quality of our spirit and our ability to not judge good/bad. Especially as relates to ourselves - the hardest is always to forgive ourselves, to let the mind and emotions become still and undisturbed by guilt and unresolved conflicts. When we don't forgive we are hurting ourselves. When we forgive we enhance our ability to be still.

I agree that the cultivation of virtue is an essential element of Taoist practice. Without cultivation of virtue, the internal alchemy, the meditation practices, are not as effective because the ego, the mind, the emotions, the memories all continue to interrupt the practice and take us out of stillness. The physical practices are important to maintain the basic health of the body so that we can continue to live and do cultivation. One differentiating aspect of Taoism is that Taoists are open to and will accept practitioners from all other religions. They do not claim "their way or the hell way..." rather that it is the world of yin for all of us until we achieve the level of refinement that will take us off the wheel of rebirth. They also differ from other religions that believe in reincarnation in that in that they teach that we can achieve immortality in this lifetime regardless of the karmic debt that we may have incurred in prior lifetimes. That, no matter what, through diligent practice it is possible to get there in this life...hence the importance of taking care of the physical vehicle and doing the practice religiously, now... Another difference in Taoism is that women are also priests and can carry out the ceremonial and mystical arts, just as the men do, and that Taoism has preserved the distinct alchemical practices for women. I read numbers somewhere about some 600 documented women internal alchemists over the past 700 or so years of which about half survived the process and - close to the same percentages of accomplishment as for men, although there had been many more male practitioners in that same period. Peace, Joy and Stillness, Wuji108