freeform

3 hours ago, -_sometimes said:

 

This seems to be common descriptor of generating lots of qi - it acts as an amplifier of sorts for whatever your nature is. For people who don't have a wholesome outcome when there's more of 'them', what can be done? If qi does not transform, what does? Is it cultivating virtue, mental training / discipline? You've mentioned many accounts of skilled qigong practitioners who go haywire basically leaking qi through base desires. How is this sort of development prevented?

Xing-Ming 

building qi, Dantien, clearing channels etc - that’s the Ming side of the practice… the Xing side is developing virtue, humility, awareness, transforming the heart-mind etc.

At the start Xing and Ming are separate categories of practice… but eventually as the mind is transformed, they start to combine…

Once you reorient your cultivation towards spirit, the qi you build starts to support the flourishing of the Original Self rather than the Acquired Self.

51 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

About ignoring and/or twisting the facts

The DDJ is not ‘facts’… 

The Bible is not ‘facts’…

Poetry is not facts…

Two ‘experts’ that were quote by you and Cobie had directly contradictory translations of the same simple source text… 

If DDJ was close to being factual - then there wouldn’t need to be so many translations, interpretations, disagreements and commentaries on it.

Mathematics is pretty factual - not many experts disagreeing about multiplication and division…

The DDJ is not maths… to think that it is puts you in the same camp as fundamentalists that believe that the bible is factual and that the world was created in 7 days and dinosaur bones were placed by god to test our faith or something.

9 hours ago, Wilhelm said:

I can't believe this guy took 81 chapters to tell people to live simply.

And counting on knotted rope instead of an abacus… oh and a bit of genocide too (you know - to lower the population to appropriate levels)… the other sagely wisdom of Lao Tzu… apparently.

It always surprises me that people don’t assume there’s a deeper level of meaning in texts like these…

Not to mention the denial of the level of subjective interpretation going on.

Even the ‘expert sinologists’ seem confused whether it’s talking about machines that can do the work of 10,000 men or its talking about weapons… 

Like chatGPT many of us are very certain of our views on texts that were translated in many different ways by many different people - most of whom are simply academics who have engaged heavily with languages - but never touched Dao.

29 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

@freeform

 

You may believe what you want, but I prefer to read what the text says. And the text is very clear in promoting a simple lifestyle.

Ahh yes. The well known objective ‘clarity’ of spiritual texts  

If you feel there’s not a shred of subjective interpretation happening in your reading of the (translation of) text (or the translators who translated it for you)…

Then, of course, the discussion is over - just as it would be had you insisted that the world was created in 7 days…

23 hours ago, wandelaar said:

I think that a guy like Lao Tzu would be aghast to see how living a simple live is becoming more difficult by the day as we in modern society surround ourselves with high-tech gadgets and computerized systems and hurriedly dismantle the old ways of doing. Soon there will no longer be a way back, and those who are unwilling to go along will end as outcasts.

Interesting.

I see it very differently.

I don’t think Lao Tzu was ever interested in the ‘old way of doing’ things…

Would he really be aghast or disturbed by anything out there?

I personally believe that what he’s communicating is that living a simple life is not predicated on external circumstances… the simple life is lived internally… not externally.

What makes the DDJ so timeless is that it focuses on the inner microcosm… not the outer appearances.

You can be living a subsistence lifestyle externally - but be in total turmoil internally…

You can be living a life in modern society with all its turmoil and complexity, while inside you’re free, spontaneous and natural.

But then again some people read the DDJ as a work of political advice 🤷

So I guess there are as many DDJs as there are readers of it.

8 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Not sure I'm understanding this but it reminds me of something my Zapchen used to talk about.  Say she asked me to be aware of a spinal vertebrae.  I normally experience myself as being in my head and I'd direct the awareness from my head to the vertebrae.  This is different from the vertebrae being aware of itself.  Am I sort of in the right ballpark or are you talking about something entirely different?

Yeah sort of - just a very Daoist version of that 😅

What makes it Daoist is what I’ve seen Adam Mizner call ‘mind fluid’… your attention becomes like a substance that suffuses its object.

What makes it ‘absorption’ (as I describe it) is that the ‘listener’ (or ‘observer’) starts to fade out and all that’s left is the object.

So yes ‘the vertebrae observing itself’ is right… it’s like there remains nothing but the vertebra at the far extreme. Just as when you’re so absorbed in what you’re doing (playing music/knitting/writing code/some sort of sport) that ‘you’ fade away - and all that is left is what you’re doing.

So in effect it’s two things:

1 -‘suffusion’ - meaning the depth of penetration of awareness. 

2 - ‘absorption’ - the level to which one’s self is able to get out of the way.

The ZZ posture is the ‘holding the beachball’ style? Or arms down?

I’d suggest stopping any static work and focusing on movement.

Even just ordinary walking to start as long as that’s not adding to the pain. 
 

You should be able to resolve it - but avoid static work - and especially the arms lifted postures for a long while.

If you can find a competent Tui Na practitioner, that may be helpful too.

10 hours ago, Wilhelm said:

 

Sorry - big bump of old thread!

 

I've been thinking about this post for weeks now.  What are the necessary prerequisites to approach this kind of work?  If your Nei Gong/Taiji practice has naturally evolved to the point where you're absorbing into the body at such a granular level (which I don't think I'm at yet FWIW) is it already safe to do this?

Re-reading that quote - now seems a bit dramatic 😄

It’s dangerous not in an acute sort of way… you’re not likely to blow a fuse in your head or something (though never say never! 😅).

It’s more a case of ‘be carful what you wish for’.

More Qi means more ‘you’…

If ‘you’ is a mostly wholesome process then that’s great.

If ‘you’ isn't a pleasant experience - then you’ll know about it.

In reality, most people who do manage to generate more than the ‘natural’ amount of qi will usually leak it - whether through emotion or hyperactivity or base desires or even literally leak the qi from various holes in the energy body.

Basically - if you were able to genuinely generate a high surplus of qi, it will start to feel like you’re on some sort of drug… you can feel euphoric/confident/very vital and full of energy… It’s not subtle.

Feeling this sort of euphoric high suggests that your system isn’t fully able to handle it… but I think that’s probably part of the process… everyone goes through that and regains balance… 

Kinda like when you’re new to exercise and you feel sore the next day means you’ve overshot your body’s balance… but it’s expected.

If you have a genuine system and teacher that takes you beyond that then it’s probably safe  

8 hours ago, kakapo said:

you could strip Chris Angel naked, check him with a metal detector, have him change into clothes you provided, take him to a random hotel you choose while under your constant supervision while someone else drove you, and when you got to your location, you could have him strip and check his body with a metal detector again and check the clothes themselves for hidden devices.

Is this really science or just an erotic fantasy you’ve got 🤔 😄

1 hour ago, MIchael80 said:

Hi! 

 

Your statement is not true.  Old indian traditions do have the mco (especially the Tamilsiddhas), they call it fire and water channel. 

could you point me to some information from that tradition? (Books/teachers etc) - always curious about this stuff.

2 hours ago, awaken said:

the Lantern Festival attracts many crazy people to come and venture out.

So you’ll be venturing out too I assume! 😄

32 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

the dew is supposed to be digested, just in a special way. because its a very;) special thing.

It seems to be having the desired effects either way

Interesting to hear other perspectives from other tantric traditions.

2 hours ago, Sahaja said:

avoiding  losing its benefits (by consumption by digestive Agni)

interesting. Does the inverted tongue position alter the digestive process? Or there’s some other methods?

Ive had some ‘khechari mudra’ tongue positions occur spontaneously over a period of time - though to me it seemed more related to the central channel - or some related energetic circuit rather than stimulating the Amrita…

(Just to add that - I’m just messing around - I mean no disrespect whatsoever.
 

I genuinely wish that someone like you, TT, with so much dedication to the arts could get a glimpse of what’s really possible… what’s being accomplished in living traditions right now.

I realise that it might seem like I’ve been fooled or am delusional or something - but to me, from my POV, that’s just your justifications for keeping your status quo intact.

So my teasing is only directed at those parts of you that seem stuck to me - that’s all.

I wouldn’t go through the effort of engaging and re-engaging with you if there wasn’t an undercurrent of respect.)

47 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

i  only flashed my creds because there was a claim that immaterial things can break material ones.

😦

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(sigh)

🤨

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Im no engineer but I imagine it’s possible to break glass with light even in a vacuum - no transmission medium necessary.

🤔
 

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That's correct. Light can perfectly move through a vacuum.

🤔

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eh i dropped out of  that rat race 20 years ago.

🤭

(sigh)

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

In physics, sound is a vibration that propagates as an acoustic wave, through a transmission medium such as a gas, liquid or solid

What about light?

Im no engineer but I imagine it’s possible to break glass with light even in a vacuum - no transmission medium necessary.

15 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

I take it you both kind gentlemen are not trained engineers like i am;)

We’re also not trained immortals like you either! 
 

I wonder how your colleagues react to that.

4 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

Excellent. Thats what i was getting at. Laying hands and tuning the patient is real indeed.

That’s simply the interaction of the natural qi field in the hands with the qi field of the body.

Though this skill can be enhanced, it’s operating on the Yin qi fields of the body… Anyone with a normal, healthy level of qi can do this within a couple of weeks… (of course there’s some qi transference on the ‘information’ end of the ‘substantial-insubstantial scale’ - that’s how surface level xie qi is passed on and even felt if there’s enough sensitivity)…

This is very different to Fa Qi - which requires having ‘full’ Yang Qi… which is rare…

‘laying on of hands’ which is the unrefined form of ‘wei qi liao fa’ requires a healthy level of Nei Qi - that’s all. It’s possible for most people with just a bit of training
 

(of course it’s very possible to do harm with it - to yourself and to others… to not do harm, one has to develop dexterity and sensitivity - which takes a ton of training.)

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

Let’s say i claim that my qi can break a glass. The glass is a material object. It cannot be broken by an immaterial object.  

As @wandelaar explained - that’s simply not the case… a glass can be broken by immaterial ‘objects’ like sound… light (eg a laser)… electromagnetic forces (eg plasma) pressure differentials etc.

Using ‘logic’ to rule out possibilities is problematic to say the least…

it was logical at some point that the earth is flat (you look in the distance and it looks flat - so it can’t be a sphere, can it!)…

or the infamous logic that proves bumble bees couldn’t possibly be able to fly…

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Now, qi is certainly something immaterial because otherwise we all would see it.

As @Shadow_self said Qi straddles between the immaterial and material…

It’s one of those unusual ‘substances’ that is both just pure ‘change in action’ or information (completely insubstantial, immaterial)… and also a ‘substance’ in that it can have form - it can have a sound, it can be seen (though admittedly not for most people) - it can certainly be felt by everyone - even tasted and smelled - it appears to have weight to it.

The issue is that to take the substantial form, it must be cultivated - generated, stored, compressed, thickened etc. Very few people can generate Qi beyond what is normal for a healthy human… A master that can fa qi will generally have the qi ‘amount’ of 4 to 20 healthy humans…

During a qi emission - the qi from the one transmitting fills the channels of the recipient - what’s established is a complete connection of two bodies… for the one emitting the other person’s body becomes an extension of their own… just as you’re able to wiggle your toe and feel the texture of the sock against its skin, the one doing the emitting can feel in just as clear and immediate way the other persons body (as if it’s their own body). It’s kinda freaky.

You can feel all the contractions, blockages and imbalances in the channels.

While you are connected in this way you can make adjustments like adding ‘qi pressure’ into certain channels to open them up… you can tonify certain organs etc.

Its not simply that you put gas into the gas tank of the receiver… It’s a lot more nuanced than that.

8 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

interesting how this naive idea of wasting or spending qi persists. as if qi  was like gas in the tank or electrical charge in a battery. or the idea that qi can be transferred from one person to the the other as if  human qi was gas from one tank to another or charge between batteries. big mistake.

interesting… coz from their perspective (and mine) the opposite of this (internal Yang Qi is limitless, it can’t be stored, it can’t be transferred etc) would be seen to be naive.

In fact that perspective suggests to me that you’ve never experienced cultivated Yang Qi before… so all this ‘attainments are subjective’ view makes a ton of sense now! 
 

Hope you’ll get to experience it one day  

55 minutes ago, kakapo said:

Then, if every teacher who is able is unwilling to do so, I guess we have to hope another person like John shows up or stick with what we have.

Yeah - they’re not ALL unwilling, I’m sure - but at least the ones I know.

There are ways to tell whether it’s an electric device or the real thing (when being emitted into you).

7 minutes ago, kakapo said:

We have looked high and low for good evidence for other systems and not found it.

The issue is that many teachers who are able to do this, actively filter out potential students that are craving this sort of thing…

By being so focused on generating power, you’re closing the door on most legitimate teachers for whom the worst nightmare is a bunch of westerners bugging them for superpowers…

They don’t show this stuff off in public, they don’t advertise it, they don’t make it a big deal… it’s not a major part of their system… it’s simply a byproduct of having fully open channels and a Dantien that’s full of qi.

The teachers who are attracted by the idea of getting a bunch of power hungry (and comparatively wealthy) westerners will generally be scammers… or at best genuinely skilled but with questionable motives…

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

wiki is mistaken.

😱

How dare you question the canon of all knowledge! 

5 minutes ago, EFreethought said:

Per wikipedia, "amrita" means immortality. Is that what you guys mean by it?

 

And when you say "gross": as in disgusting, or easy to detect/not subtle?

Oh the Amrita in many traditions is the name given to a kind of very sweet saliva that begins to form when a certain inner process is underway.

The test for it is ‘gross’ - as in a bit disgusting - because you have to taste another person’s saliva to verify it 

9 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

The issue is that a set of finite, impermanent causes or conditions produce finite, impermanent effects. They cannot give rise to a permanent, non-finite result-- it would be like fire producing darkness, or constructing space out of wood and steel.

They can create the conditions for ‘permanent effects’ to arise of their own accord. You clear the the dust from the lens so the light may shine - you don’t cause the light to shine.

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Intense spiritual experiences, while certainly valuable to the seeker, do not necessarily carry any truth value. Plenty of people have intense and ecstatic experiences that they claim validate tradition claims. In addition, for every person who feels an intense presence in around a realized person, many people feel nothing. We can say that they lack sensitivity, but really we are just valuing our subjective impressions over others. 

Are you really trying to ‘debunk’ a friendly anecdote I told in passing?