senseless virtue

Quick Summary: What did I learn?

• If you have chronic illness and lack diagnosis, get a proper diagnosis from a qualified medical expert. Those of traditional medicine paradigms can be very helpful.
• Healing can be complicated and ask for physical intervention rather than meditative practices. Diet, lifestyle, and sleep matter a lot and applying them correctly can be medicinal already.
• It's not much use to counsel others unless you have solid skills and deep awareness. It's easy to make errors and people usually have fixed ideas about what help they can accept.
• Receiving good advice is precious and rare. People lie or make mistakes all the time. It can save time and money to be more critical and discerning about what and who are the most trustworthy teachings and teachers around.

When I first enrolled for qigong, I quick became convinced that the practice was good. My bad was to give the benefit of doubt to the common teachers' sales pitch that qigong can cure illness with almost no exceptions and that no diagnosis is necessary. Many years later I would consult two Classical Chinese Medicine trained teachers who I respected a lot. Their help didn't cut to the core: the diagnoses were very general as were the advice offered. Somewhat helpful, but not healing.

In this January I finally went to a Traditional Tibetan Medicine (TTM) counseling. The person in charge diagnosed me remotely through Zoom and in a relatively brief time through dialogue explained to me in detail what imbalances and conditions were behind my ailing and how these could be easily cured through applying a healing diet according to TTM. Everything made sense. Then the person brought up the fact that the severity of my symptoms relating to chest area sensations aren't normal and can only be explained by that there is a physical weakness of heart making an extra complication and therefore asked me if I had experienced shortness of breath while climbing stairs. Boom! At first it sounded weird because I had never even considered a heart condition, but then I recalled that aerobic exercises always had felt a bit too heavy for my liking and that sometimes while sitting down idly my breathing feels uncomfortable and unsatisfying as if I'm not having enough air to breathe. 

The heart condition might not be curable. I'm due to have my heart examined with Western medicine to see if they can find anything resembling a known heart defect. There is a possibility that it's an oddball karmic birth condition keeping my heart working less.

I don't know how heart conditions typically affect people's capacity to meditate. In my case the heart condition affects the vital winds in that they become more volatile and susceptible to wind disorder. Broadly speaking inner peace becomes harder to train and there is an increase in the likelihood of mental disturbances and neurological issues in response to all agitating stimuli whether passions or dislikes. This leads into such sensitivity that only very specific types of quiescent practices would have been of any help to me. For example, I shouldn't circulate, disperse, or uplift my inner energy in any manner, but do everything to remain as calm and rooted as possible. This also explained why even modest recitation practices such as prayers and sutras have easily caused me to feel congested in the chest and head. Are basic concentration practices like keeping gentle awareness on the dantian any better? No, the sensations of inner suffocation can quickly become very severe. I simply can't handle effortful breathing nor any mental strain.

I could go on how nearly all types of practice feel uncomfortable and have poor results. In this light it makes no sense for me to pursue internal arts like I once aspired or talk with others about their practice. I'm disillusioned and done because I don't think I can learn here any further nor contribute to anyone's absolute benefit. I only left this extensive parting message for the consideration that it might help someone else to seek better options for healing.

I wish everyone the best and that all reach the perfect enlightenment as soon as possible!

I have been struggling with a burnout and a heart condition diagnosis since January. Not a reason to draw pity, but a reminder that suffering affects all and that good and bad fortunes come and go. We can never be entirely certain of how stable and conducive our fortune is and how many opportunities we may have for good dedicated practice in this human form.

I'll write more later when my thoughts are more composed.

47 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

again Vajrayana folks may prefer to do their energy practices but personally Vajrayana is not my cup of tea

Ok. I hope that you do keep your samaya vows intact if you have received any Vajrayana teachings like you seem to have. You mentioned about Dakinis and a portion of practice instructions that might require keeping it as secret from the non-initiated. You might want to edit your earlier post for this reason.

For those wondering what is samaya and how it relates to Gurus: it's pretty strict lifetime commitment and means to not wound the love and power which Guru bestows with the tantric initiation. Abusing the vows leads to hell rebirth unless the breaches are purified. Also, abandoning one's Guru leads to the karma that one will never again meet the teachings of Buddha in any future lifetime. Sounds pretty serious, but taking empowerments and accepting Gurus is a personal choice and everybody usually is well informed about what responsibilities it carries to both for the teacher and the student.

Ok, I don't have a clear view of what you are looking for in shielding so I'm stopping here.

4 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

Folks who do dream/sleep practices tend to do more than that, right before sleep.Eg in Dream Yoga, it could be a small mantra before sleep and/or visualisation of Dakinis standing at the house's windows, doors, corridors etc.

It might be interesting for you to learn that Shuigong also has protective visualizations in its dream practice. These aren't humanoid figures though.

4 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

There's also not much on transforming sexual energy

Bodhicitta. Either you use the extra energy in pursuits of altruistic love and higher causes or it escapes through habitual vices. That's how I see it, but you might want something else per your teacher's recommendation that you quote.

9 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

shielding has no coubterpart in Buddhist practices

Sorry, but this doesn't sound true and you might be misinformed. There are plenty of shielding practices starting from basic ethical discipline to various mantras and dharanis in Paramitayana and then deity sadhanas in Vajrayana. Even reading certain Mayahana Sutras can make for reasonable shielding.

9 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

I'm not a huge fan of the guru role in Vajrayana and I'd cherry pick a tantric technique only in isolation and only when there are no alternatives.

Understandable. Be mindful though that many esoteric mantras are also used in all Mayahana and plenty of these don't require going to the tantric deep end. Yet, discussing these mantras even with your Ch'an or Zen teacher can be very helpful because following a valid teacher is the way to go.

1 minute ago, Master Logray said:

These days no one regards Taoist cultivation as spiritual (in the western sense).   People practise it for delay becoming a spirit.

That is a technically correct answer and a very thoughtful one.

32 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

Also, is there something equivalent to "receiving transmission" in Qigong, ie is it possible to easily check Qigong instructors lineages tracing them back to the origins of QiGong?

In some cases yes. Stillness-Movement Neigong, Tao Tan Pai, Flying Phoenix Qigong, and Shuigong have good pedigrees and excellent meditative results even in the modern era. All of them feature either energy transmission or traditional initiation at some point of the training as far as I understand.

13 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

If I can't find a teacher who ticks the boxes I'll go 100% self study, and this may be fine, after all having a bit of beginners mind, especially now that I'm a beginner 😂 , certainly won't hurt.

Michael Lomax, Sifu Terry Dunn, and Sifu John Dolic also teach online and do Q&A in case you are interested in more interaction.

22 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

I've learnt from direct contact with Theravadan monks and Zen masters progressed my meditation practice way more.

Why are you looking for qigong if you have found Buddhism?

My article might be useful even if not directly answering your question:

23 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

Yet you can do without spiritual practice and yet build up Chi.  There are a lot of methods available.  It is just how good and efficient they are and whether you can afford the costs.

 

As to discern harmful/helpfulness, I would say a certain risk always exist. 

Spiritual discipline prevents loss and harm. This is its singular purpose. Without this foundation all "practice" is wishful hobbyist theory and all likely risks become realized in one form or another.

That's why you don't see Michael Winn or Mantak Chia students becoming flying mahasiddhas even if they gathered all the energy and even if they practiced all the forms correctly. Freedom from error is the highest guarantee for success as far as internal training goes.

49 minutes ago, Pak_Satrio said:

This. It’s not a tiny point, it’s the entire lower abdomen area.

Come on! You let out a secret worth of bazillion bucks like it was nothing! 

Blah.

42 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

The question of this post is to build Chi, not advancing spiritual practice

I think it's highly ignorant to separate these two.

Building qi always takes correct discipline, and to really master discipline you need to be able to discern well between what is harmful and what is helpful.

5 hours ago, Pak_Satrio said:

It’s not just being about to see what’s true or not. You start to physically feel what is good for you and what is bad when you consume things. 

In fact the entire pursuit of spirituality is one extensive learning for to be able to spontaneously separate good and bad.

1 minute ago, ChiDragon said:

It might do less more harm than good.

"Less more harm" sounds pretty neutral. And somehow strangely pretty. I love Engrish. 

25 minutes ago, Sahaja said:

So I think you are saying

One can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

Best of luck to you.

10 minutes ago, Sahaja said:

When you say unhealthy energies what specifically are you referring to? What makes them different from healthy energies?

This should be pretty obvious considering we talk about martial arts.

Martial energy is meant for killing human beings. Many of the advanced Bok Fu Pai meditations and their breath sequences activate that capacity.

I think you should go ask Sifu Terry Dunn or search the Flying Phoenix discussion thread if you still find my explanation hard to grasp. Sifu Terry has made numerous references to the fighting capacity of the GMDW meditative arts.

50 minutes ago, Sahaja said:

I seem to recall I heard him mention (in one of his videos) that he was taught directly to do this breathing by observation (emulating what his teacher was doing by watching and listening)  and he converted them to percentages so it would be easier to transmit them.

This is how GM Doo Wai learned the breath sequencing as it had been traditional for many generations.

GMDW eventually became so skillful that he crafted correct breath sequencing formulas to any new martial styles that he didn't inherit from his father. From Sifu Terry Dunn's writings we can see that Eight Sections of Energy Combined (Bot Dim Gum in Cantonese) is one of these.

As a closure, I want to remind everybody that Sifu Terry has brought up several times that it's dangerous to create breathing formulas on your own because it might access unhealthy energies. He also shared a personal account about Flying Phoenix advanced level that doing the movements wrong even by accident can also induce a real energy injury. Please take care and don't waste your time on yogic skills that go beyond your level.

The breath sequencing formulas can't be reverse engineered and each of them are linked to specific qigong movements.

Just my opinion, but these can't be grokked without transmitted tradition or very high level of yogic accomplishment.

Due to cannabis being an active topic on The Dao Bums right now, here are Sifu Terry's thoughts about recreational drugs together with the meditative arts he teaches:

On 4/6/2015 at 4:43 AM, zen-bear said:

In contrast to your background, I had plenty of experience with drugs throughout my adolescence and college years--being one of the baby-boomer generation. Fortunately, my experience (starting in college) with simple meditation and with authentic Qigong systems such as Flying Phoenix Qigong and Tao Tai Pai Neikung naturally imparted states of BLISS and transcendental states of consciousness that no drug-induced experience from my past can ever hold a candle to in terms of enjoyment, physical well-being, At-Onement, and All-knowing, what some yogins starting in the 1960's called Cosmic Consciousness. (In fact, during the 80's when cocaine was everywhere in this country, my practice back then of Tao Tan Pai Nei-kung was so cleansing bio-chemically (and so polishing spiritually) that indulging in cocaine whenever it was offered, did absolutely nothing for me. Absolutely nothing. So after about 5-6 totally bland and unremarkable experiences, I declined it every time it was offered. And I happened to have been given the highest quality stuff by my musician friends.)

On 3/13/2011 at 7:29 AM, zen-bear said:

Use of ginger daily for long periods up to 108 days (no limit, actually) is a very basic hygienic practice to cleanse the blood and to stimulate the effects of the FP Qigong.

 

Similar to what Sifu Garry has disclosed about YKM's use of tui ni, acupuncture and moxi for healing: in my years of training with GM Doo Wai, I was taught use of herbs, diet, Qigong, and his Tui Na (no moxi).

 

Outside of kitchen herbs like ginger for basic and gradual cleansing and healing: are much, much more powerful meditation aids: we use alcohol-based herbal tinctures in conjunction with FP Qigong and with other of GMDW's Qigong methods. For 3 of us training in the 8 Sections Combined system (BDG), the GM had us prepare herbal formulas that were rolled up into balls using honey (they actually looked like rabbit pellets )--and they really did their trick. The most basic meditative aid contained 5 herbs (4 roots and 1 fruit ground into a green powder), which is very, very powerful in its meditative effects. But this herbal formula cannot be disclosed on a public forum because preparation of it and use of it must be closely supervised for the sake of safety. I might have mentioned earlier in this thread that one student in our circle in the 90's very, very unwisely combined his use of this meditation tincture with his recreational use of controlled substances. This led to him having severe black-outs and fainting spells that were attributed by doctors to brain lesions (that showed up in MRI scans) and that required opened-skull exploratory surgery. But when they opened the skull of this student and did the exploration, they couldn't find anything. At first no one knew what could have caused the lesions and then caused them to disappear. I instantly knew exactly what happened and how it happened because I knew that he had combined drugs with the tincture and I knew (and know) how the tincture "wore off". I disclose this episode to explain why this and all herbal formulas in the FP Qigong and BFP tradition cannot be disclosed on a public forum. Even in the private oral tradition, not every one of my students in FPQ will learn how to use tinctures. It's just not for every student.

 

I hope this additional context gives you some perspective on the depth of the FP Qigong system.

On 1/6/2023 at 10:27 PM, zen-bear said:

Also a little random question but if one wants to do psychedelics like ayahuasca how much break should one take before doing qigong?

I can only speak in reference to the Qigong arts that I teach:  Ehrmei Bok Fu Pai Kung Fu's energy arts (that includes Flying Phoenix) and the Taoist Elixir Method system, both of which are vast.  I strongly advise that one learn the FP Qigong system (meaning, become proficient in all the material taught in Volumes 1 through 4) completely free and clear of all drugs--from pot, to opiates, to psychedelics and to any type of psychotropics.  For safety and best results, take a break from your normal usage of any substance that affects your nervous system and alters perception, mood, consciousness, cognitive function, or behavior.)  FP Qigong is a pure and powerful healing art that restores pristine health and cultivates a structural sensitivity to the mundane and supramundane.  You want don't want anything physical or chemical in your body to distort the initial experience of how FP Qigong yogic methodology works.

I hope this helps everyone train responsibly and with dedication as far as Bok Fu Pai and Tao Tan Pai systems are concerned.

My personal opinion is that no one should ever "play" with psychoactive substances and do any meditation in the same week without first consulting their physician and meditation teacher that it's absolutely alright.

6 hours ago, Klinsly said:

Definitely, but they have their place and use when used responsibly. A lot of stigma from people sounds almost dogmatic from people who have no relationship with it. I'm not judging them just making  observations over long periods. Those who don't use or have no desire more power to them and I'm happy for their decision. It's kinda a thing of not being able to go back, not addiction wise but knowledge and experience wise to see things differently. This is kinda a universal concept on any deep or occulted topic.

Pretty good explanation as far as your own observations go, but you may be too inexperienced with meditation to really understand how recreational drugs affect the nervous system. It universally leads to worse results.

Since you practice Flying Phoenix Qigong, I have quoted Sifu Terry Dunn on the topic:

Take care.

6 minutes ago, Khun Paen said:

After talking to a few teachers in Zhineng (arguably one of the most popular qigong styles in China) there seems to be the idea that you can cultivate the lower dantian at the navel, or below it. However, building the dantian below the navel causes an energy loss. So that's Dr Pang Mings logic behind building it at the navel center. Has anyone ever heard of this idea anywhere else?

You should read my previous post in this thread. Building dantian closer to sexual organs increases libido and the chance of having sexual thoughts. This can lead to energy loss if discipline isn't good enough.

18 minutes ago, Maddie said:

There is nothing wrong with developing a new system I guess, but it should be done responsibly with trials, testing, and peer reviewed studies first,  before it is used on the general public.

There weren't scientific trials in classic China in this sense.

The renown masters first attained high level through meditation and preliminary practices, which opens the capability to see how karma works out. They could see directly what helps and what not.

25 minutes ago, Pak_Satrio said:

The Yin Yang Potato Technique!

 

Ok now it sounds harmless enough to try

Not harmless if it turns you into Yin Yang french fries.

On 11/28/2023 at 11:36 PM, searcher7977 said:

I chant rotate and chant a variety of mantras and japas

35 minutes ago, Dainin said:

These are primarily of Hindu origin, with occasional Buddhist ones as well.

I can't imagine what sense or attainment could be found in using, even if having separate sessions, mantras from distinct traditions like Buddhism and Hinduism as if these traditions were interchangeable or philosophically in agreement.

Being a Hindu on weekdays and being a Buddhist on weekends and holidays? Is commitment to a single tradition that boring?

Just now, Chang dao ling said:

What you mean by developing powerful siddhi without any supporting development?

Foundation of preliminary training. This can mean ethics of no-harm, having renunciation, altruistic love, generosity, patience, and having the correct view of cause and effect, and realizing no-self. After these comes good health and a repelling aura. Some traditions also teach how to shield from spirit threats.