Mig

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Posts posted by Mig


  1. On 1/4/2024 at 1:36 PM, Cobie said:

     

    Interesting. Fits with what I was told, that modern Chinese is slowly developing to losing the tones and becoming an agglutinative language.

     

     

    Not sure what you mean about agglunative language? Any examples to share? What I have noticed recently is the use of single syllables like instead of using two syllables words like kuaile: happy and say le only.


  2. 2 hours ago, ChiDragon said:


    I don't think that there is one translation or interpretation is better than the other. It is best to read a few books to get the general theme of the philosopher to form your own conclusion. It is not wise to have someone tell you which is good or not.

    Thanks and understood. What books would you recommend to get the general theme?


  3. 2 hours ago, wandelaar said:

    There's not much to choose from in case of the Lieh tzu. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liezi#Translations

     

    I have the the ones by Graham and Wong. Graham is scholarly, Wong is practical. So both are interesting, but for different reasons. I don't know the one by Liang Xiaopeng.

    What was good about Graham translation? What did you learn from Graham that other translations didn't cover? Was that helpful to understand what Daoists preach or talk about Daoism?


  4. After reading many postings about Daoism, the DDJ, ZZ, LZ etc. I was wondering for all the scholars in this forum,

    is it necessary to know modern Chinese and classical Chinese to read those classics? or it is no necessary to learn

    none but rely entirely on every English translation since the concepts or messages in those books are just normal

    concepts or advises that are natural in humans all over the world. If I read  the DDJ or ZZ, I can understand the sentences

    in a translation but I don't have a clue of the meaning, structure or hidden message in each chapter. If I find an explanation

    or commentary of each chapter and the point of view of a scholar well versed in Daoism then I understand the reason why.

    The problem becomes tricky when everyone has one opinion and their opinion is based on religious or an academic point of

    view. The famous dichotomy of religious and philosophical Daoism is seen from differently from the point of a native scholar.

    And reading those Daoists books, I realize that is important to learn about Confucianism and then bingo! I can see how terms,

    concepts or ideas had evolved after their time until the Tang and Song dynasty and how those texts were interpreted later by

    Buddhists, Confucians and Daoists.

    So is it necessary to learn Chinese or not to read or understand (to practice in life) the old classics?

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  5. 1 hour ago, Master Logray said:

    Middle and Modern Chinese are tonal. They won't come from nowhere. It was not out of a imposed design.  The logical reasoning is that the tonality must have evolved from earlier not barely tonal or not so tonal versions to a fully tonal language. 

    What is your criteria to assert that it was not out of an imposed design? Wasn't the written script arbitrary imposed to pronounce words?


  6. Interesting posting and the Quora answers are so diverse and I can smell the academic flavor of their lingo. It is true the importance of tones but common people don't talk like that, in conversation their sentences are fluid and when they speak very fast, it is only the context that helps in the conversation, an example is the crosstalk stand up comedy type where they speak fast, or even when they sing songs where tones are not necessarily used formally . As for tones in ancient Chinese, who knows what happened BC. And this made me wonder, were the DDJ or lún yǔ written using tones or was it a tendency for the language to become monosyllabic then tones evolved? Again, as for tones, it seems to me that there is this academic explanation, which I understand why, but tones as Kaiser Kuo mentioned in the Quora intervention, "dude" can use tones for the 4 tones in modern Chinese. Now, I have never understood when I hear native Chinese speak the standard language, I can hear stress or intonation in a sentence and tones are not necessarily used unless disambiguation to clarify the meaning of a word whether is one syllable or two syllables words.


  7. On 12/12/2023 at 12:06 PM, Taoist Texts said:

     

    lets say a reader does not know anything about china or any kind of breath exercise. the sentence will inform him: 'real men always breath deep as if their breath comes from their heels up'. a reasonable reader will understand this sentence to a t. he will need no evidence nor experience nor explanation.  he will surmise: 'deep calm breath=good'. thats what ZZ says and there is nothing more to it.

     

    now if you personally want to imitate the real men or to learn about ancient chinese culture and so on, you may do more research. but no research is necessary to understand ZZ for a reasonable average reader.

    I guess I understand better the sentence as the real person's breathing reaches down to their heels which makes sense if I breath using the dantian. It seems that is the practice developed from Daoists and Yogis traditions. More common in Taijiquan in their early writings.

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  8. 41 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

    sure. as usual with the chinese, it is convoluted

    the initial idea of 4 virtues different from the later 四字 is

    some 1500 years later those morphed into current 四字 in a Song dynasty book 

    then it was codified again in an immensely popular fantasy book of Ming dynasty

     

     

     

    Great and thanks. Any reason of why 節; jié was included?

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  9. 1 hour ago, Maddie said:

    I don't know much about this, but I think it's interesting. 

    Since you mentioned Jujitsu (I avoid the Brazilian tag name because of the trend) and I had practiced southern Chinese boxing, I found those strengths that are popular in many martial arts circles which have been influenced by the rújiào 儒教 the scholars (Confucianism) and the folk religion which includes Daoism and Chán Buddhism. Thus, I try to understand where those ideas came from and why people use them in their practice or teachings.
     

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  10. 9 hours ago, ChiDragon said:


    人法地: human follows earth

    地法天: earth follows sky

    天法道: sky follows Tao

    道法自然: Tao follows its own nature(own-self).

    I didn't see anything in the TTC says to follow nature but not to interfere with nature. Let nature take its course(無為). To obtain Tao is simply means to observe the principles of Tao. Tao is not related to nature. Tao overlooks nature to assure things are run properly on their course. Good or bad, nature has no mercy.

     

    I think the problem is about the translation and the use or misuse of the word "nature". And most likely it comes from a sentence from the  淮南子 原道訓:

    ...修道理之數,因天地之自然,則六合不足均也。 the man who conforms to the art of the Tao, in accordance with the natural way of Heaven and Earth, would find it easy to manage the whole world.

    I am pretty sure that my inquiry has been made in the past or for thousand years and my observation is that it gives me the impression is that if Daoist say follow nature is idealistic and chose arbitrarily images or concepts to make sense of their message. Unfortunately hippies, post hippies and then new age people have used it as a porte manteau word to sell whatever idea that sounds cool

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  11. 6 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

    IMO Follow nature doesn't mean to do exactly what nature does. It simply means to cope with nature. For example, flood is a natural cause of nature. The following action was dictated by nature is to avoid the flood by going to higher places. Indeed, it is not possible for human to create flood by following nature.

    What is the closest sentence, explanation in Chinese? I see your example of flood, what about earthquakes, tornadoes, tsunamis. Is there any mention of how follow nature in Chinese?


  12. 8 hours ago, wandelaar said:

    Following nature simply means working with natural tendencies to achieve your goals in stead of stubbornly trying to force the world to act according to your own preferences. In some cases animals and plants can be taken as an example, but not always. Following nature acknowledges our own relative insignificance by giving up futile attempts at heroism. Simple somewhat silly example: walking around a wall instead of stubbornly trying to knock it down or trying to climb over it. In the hassle of daily life this easy-does-it attitude is easily forgotten because we tend to get obstinate and irate at apparent injustices in the way the world works. So following nature has nothing to do with morality, and everything with surviving in an occasionally unjust world. Remember that the TTC was written in the Warring States period.

    Okay, I guess my problem is trying to understand "following nature". Did you understand it because it was common sense when you read it or is it because you found one sentence, one commentary or one explanation in one of the classics and that is how you understood it? And more problematic is when I hear people say the Dào is nature or the Dào follows nature, thus nature is 自 zì 然 rán

    Now human nature is or should be a replica of nature and I can observe that some individuals grow nice and some grow mean or psychopaths as now we can watch videos as how some pack animals can be cruel within their own territory. As for injustice, I think that is for another discussion later.


  13. On 12/10/2023 at 12:52 PM, wandelaar said:

     

    I don't have Lynn's translation yet, but I may well buy it. As you can see on Google Books the translation is preceded by an extended introduction. I think knowing the cultural background of a text (particularly when it's a very old text) is essential for understanding, so the introduction might well be worth reading. But at the moment I just don't know if reading the book as a whole is worth the effort. Maybe later.

    I've just got mine and already I am very satisfied with the few pages I have read and compared with other notes. I highly recommend it and I am not sure why is not as popular as others as Watson. Thanks for sharing

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  14. 52 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

    no. What you listed are strengths not virtues . Strengths have nothing to do with ethics or morals. An unethical or an immoral man can have them. Virtues are:

    The Five Constants are:[58]

    • Ren (benevolence, humaneness)
    • Yi (righteousness, justice)
    • Li (propriety, rites)
    • Zhi (; zhì: wisdom, knowledge)
    • Xin (sincerity, faithfulness)

    These are accompanied by the classical four virtues (四字; sìzì), one of which (Yi) is also included among the Five Constants:

    Got it. But what's four virtues (四字; sìzì)? Four characters?

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  15. 16 minutes ago, Nungali said:

     

    Look into the 'nature of things'   and how they  'work' . Then try to emulate that in other fields . Consider 'harmony' , or beneficial symbiosis , or water finding the level ...

     

    Dont go around being a tiger and pouncing on people and eating them .

     

    I hope this helps .

     

    .

    Like what kind of nature of things? Any examples to share and how to emulate them as following the Dào?

    Beneficial? I thought we were here because sharing is caring. Back in the days people used to say tigers were lonely animals but now apparently is not the case. 

    The reason of my ignorant questioning is because the ideas I found when people say follow nature or the Dào, it seems to me very simplistic and idealistic because the nature I see out there is far from being harmonious and when nature catastrophe hits your backyard then is no longer that nice and nothing is left undone. 


  16. On 11/3/2023 at 6:02 PM, Marcus said:

    Nature doesnt make those distinctions. Humans do.

    'There is no good nor bad. Only thinking makes it so'.

     When a river meets a mountain it doesnt hate or love the mountain. It either flows around it or slowly melts it away.

    It follows the easiest path, which is wu wei. The natural flow with least resistance.

    A lion doesnt hate the animal it has for breakfast.

    Spend some time away in nature and if you need a good teacher get yourself a cat.

    You wont find Taoism on the internet. Just people hawking their wares.

    You wont find Spirit in a temple. Just people in silly hats selling someone elses opinions.

    Go natural and be your own master.

    Peace.

     

    Let me understand your notes. I understand we humanize what we see in nature. Not long ago, we thought we had control of nature but the more we see, the more we realize that is not the case. We try to dominate nature because the way we were taught. Now, how do you know there is no good nor bad. If I go camping and stay in one place, chances are that bugs are going to visit and most likely they will make my life impossible so I have to find a better way to be in a comfortable place. Is it good or is it bad? Is that about my thinking or just the way it is in nature? Now the natural flow with least resistance? Is that how lava works when the volcano has eruptions causing disaster for all the living creatures that were nearby. As for the lion, aren't lions territorial and will kill out anger or get killed because for some reason a pack of hyenas picked the right victim. How do you explain that? Each time I spend in nature, each time makes me wonder, where in the Dàoism or in the DDJ or ZZ talks about how nature is not all rosy but also cruel. Thus, I can see now why some humans are also cruel committing atrocities to their fellow human. If I read history and even today, I noticed how much conflict and wars still common in this world. Is that to follow the Dào? Is that to emulate the Dào? How can I go natural if natural is constant fight between those who can survive and those who take advantage of each situation to live comfortably?  And be my own Master? Really, are you implying having control of myself and my surroundings? We have control of anything, plain and simple.


  17. On 12/10/2023 at 1:24 AM, Taoist Texts said:

     

    On 12/10/2023 at 1:24 AM, Taoist Texts said:

     

    On 12/10/2023 at 1:24 AM, Taoist Texts said:

    they are all from the original

    no, we should not. commentaries do not add anything to the original. you can read Guo's commentary in regular font and ZZ's original in bold here https://cup.columbia.edu/book/zhuangzi/9780231123877 as you see Guo is merely paraphrasing

    no not really. what you see is what you get. its all there in black and white on the page. no Chinese mind necessary. if you formulate a question regarding a story i can answer it for you if you wish

    this is what ZZ also thinks. but he also proposes a way to do something about those issues

    Let me see if I understand correctly. I started reading ZZ ch 6. 1

    古之真人,其寢不夢,其覺無憂,其食不甘,其息深深。真人之息以踵,眾人之息以喉。屈服者,其嗌言若哇。其耆欲深者,其天機淺。

    The True men of old did not dream when they slept, had no anxiety when they awoke, and did not care that their food should be pleasant. Their breathing came deep and silently. The breathing of the true man comes (even) from his heels, while men generally breathe (only) from their throats. When men are defeated in argument, their words come from their gullets as if they were vomiting. Where lusts and desires are deep, the springs of the Heavenly are shallow. Legge translation

    So, I am a regular Joe who likes to read stuff here and there and when I read this I understand each word and each sentence in English and I can see the original is about the same except that was classical Chinese. But wait, I read breath from his heels, WTH is he talking about? Then I checked one of the postings here in this site and I started reading all kind of stuff, some are made up by each contributor others trying to follow some tradition, but come on, the original text in itself doesn't tell me that much. So how I am supposed to understand the text in this specific section of this chapter? how it can possible 真人之息以踵 or is there a reference what it meant by the heel? I tried to imagine that but I don't see a physical evidence that can show me that is possible. I have tried breathing from the navel and yes, I can feel warmth through my knees and feel the warmth of my circulation on my feet. As you can see, I still don't understand what I read is what I get because I don't get it. Or maybe I am out of the target or I don't belong to those bright minds in their selective circle, who knows!


  18. 7 hours ago, Nungali said:

     

    Ohhhh   !  Okay then  ....

     

     

    Agreed and that is what I meant in my post , the response was to  'real old style martial arts' which in many cases is about killing, injuring or  least 'stopping' people .  Things where very different when people could walk around with a 'live' sword and peasants had to bow to them ... or else !    :(  .  

     

    So I meant MMA is probably the best realistic popular  MA at the moment , as its hard contact in the ring . But its different to old style in

    that 'death' may not necessarily be 'close at hand ' . 

     

     

    Street fight is what is the closest to a fight could be. However if you watch people fighting even those who are practitioners, fight like kids, punches, kicks and clinch. All the techniques they learned all of the sudden disappear. Today there are tons of videos that show how boys and girls still fight the same way. Very few show what they have learned like a good front kick in the face, a roundhouse kick or a good jab. There are some videos like backyard brawler that show the efficiency of kicks and punches but I rarely see a technique or a fancy technique that can knock out someone.  There is a distinction of martial art (like those monks who rescued Lǐ shì mín

    李世民. Lǐ shì mín rose to power and became the first Tang Dynasty Emperor.) and the sport that is practiced today. As for the martial art killing or injuring, it seems that there was a code of conduct 武德 wǔdé/butoku, lit. martial virtues, so when there was war, bare hands or ground fighting were the least weapons you had, you needed weapons or whatever useful tool to kill.


  19. 7 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

    I was told that in France, once upon time, people fought with lots of kicking and it was very brutal. The government stopped all kicking in the fights. However, since Bruce Lee introduce Chinese Kung Fu to the world, the whole scenery in the martial arts industry has been changed to a very brutal fighting ground. I didn't realize that the MMA scene was that brutal until I had a glance of it.

    FYI The Chinese have a habit of signing a death certificate before going into the fighting ring. It is like a warranty not to have any liable responsibility or obligation for the death of the opponent. That is, also,  indicates how brutal the martial arts was in ancient China.

    Where did you get that from France. France had savate which was kicks and strikes sport. Any street fight can be brutal and as a kid in those countries, you want to see blood in a fight and that's how you show you are a man. Bruce Lee didn't introduce Kung fu, he was against Kung fu and that's why created his own martial arts, a mix of wing chun, boxing and some grappling since then it had evolved as trends has changed. As he said: "Adapt what is useful, reject what is useless, and add what is specifically your own". Inosanto had to follow the trends and if you are going to his school, you will find sambo, kali escrima, silat, wing chun and JDK. As for the Chinese fight, knight errant Youxia (Chinese: 遊俠) novels then wuxia 武俠 had influenced what people considered fight or real fight although it became more fiction than real. Today MMA is not what you could find in alleys where guys fought bare hands or knuckle fists and each generation had their own rules. Today MMA is full of restrictions to make it interesting and entertaining.

    • Like 1